Evolution discussion

[Benko]

The physical part happens so slowly that we don't notice. I think most evolution these days is social and cultural.

What is social or cultural evolution?  What process are you stating is happening?

[dualstow]

The physical part happens so slowly that we don't notice. I think most evolution these days is social and cultural.

What is social or cultural evolution?  What process are you stating is happening?

One example would be education taking over where brain size had to plateau. Humans don't have so much instinct, thus a human child can't just spring up onto its feet like a foal. However, we have large brains for our body size. (That's not to say that size is everything. Birds navigate well with their tiny brains).

Our brains got bigger and bigger, but before Caesarean sections, skull sizes plateaued because, well, they had to come out of Mom. We're not evolving bigger brains, but we're constantly working on the software, be it math lessons, religion, youtube videos on how to make halvah. (And perhaps education leads to rewiring, real physical changes).

For humans, it's no longer survival of the fittest. At least not in the physical sense.

Extending this, we're constantly evolving our tools. Technology & culture. Glasses and contact lenses, not sharper eyesight. Computers, not necessarily better memories.

[Mountaineer]

One more quick comment:  I know I'm just one of many in this thread, but I do want to say that I'd prefer to have this thread be more about evolution and less about religion.  I know the two can sometimes feel inseparable, but as much as possible, I'd love to focus in on how some of you have managed to come to a belief in evolution.  When I read or watch videos about evolution, I probably feel like some of you do when you're reading about religion.  It just seems too preposterous to be true; so many impossible holes to fill, so much contradiction, and no ability to test the theory in the present. 

So what are your favorite sources of evidence for evolution?

Me, me, me, it's all about me  --->  I'm approaching round body, vestigial limbs and absolutely enormous brain territory; I can hardly hold my head upright, thanks be to God that my skull was able to expand to 5X the normal volume - size does matter.  And, my religious preferences are evolving over the years.      Sorry, I just could not resist. 

... Mountaineer

[dualstow]

So what are your favorite sources of evidence for evolution?

Books: I know Dawkins can be abrasive, but I liked The Blind Watchmaker and Climbing Mount Improbable.
Carl Zimmer's book, Evolution, is less heavy duty and the companion PBS special of the same name is pretty digestible.

Other: For me, it started in science class at school and at home. The books above came much later. As I wrote last year -- and I think PS said he had a similar experience IIRC -- my parents are proud of their heritage but only practiced half-assed Judaism. If they had been gung ho atheists, I might have been one of those rebellious young'uns that turned to religion. But, their tiny bit of belief & practice was like an injection of a weak disease that my antibodies of reason could easily squash. It was an innoculation against religion, though not their intent.

Continuing with the same metaphor, I then had no immunization against evolutionary theory in school that I think young believers have. I soaked it up with an open mind. More than a decade and a half later, when I met a fellow American overseas, a creationist, I was shocked to hear him proclaim that the fossil record was mere "pig bones." He was formatted from birth as another old friend of mine would say. With Christianity. I think I kind of ruined Christianity for him that year, but he is still a monotheist. He's into the Bahai faith now. The main difference is that his parents look at me with suspicion. But I digress.

[dualstow]

And I realize neither of us is likely to be converted, but it would at the very least be a fun challenge, right?

Conversion: Not only unlikely, but practically impossible. Still, I've enjoyed reading some Bible passages. The friend mentioned above got me into C.S. Lewis' non-Narnia stuff, like The Screwtape Letters. And, I read bits of the Quran (it's cooler with a Q) in my teens.

I wouldn't mind giving this Keller book a try. Still, I don't know how the others here who accept evolution feel, but I have no agenda to "convert" you or Mountaineer, even if I thought I could. I don't know how to say this without sounding patronizing, but I think it would be comfy to believe in a deity as long as it's a loving one. I cannot choose to believe any more than I can choose to like cilantro, so...I'm savoring my natural non-belief.

I also don't think religion always gets in the way of science. In Galileo's time it did, but nowadays if a believer gets into particle physics, more power to him. Or her. I knew some creatiionists that were very much into physics and math.

[Mountaineer]

One more quick comment:  I know I'm just one of many in this thread, but I do want to say that I'd prefer to have this thread be more about evolution and less about religion.  I know the two can sometimes feel inseparable, but as much as possible, I'd love to focus in on how some of you have managed to come to a belief in evolution.  When I read or watch videos about evolution, I probably feel like some of you do when you're reading about religion.  It just seems too preposterous to be true; so many impossible holes to fill, so much contradiction, and no ability to test the theory in the present. 

So what are your favorite sources of evidence for evolution?

Me, me, me, it's all about me  --->  I'm approaching round body, vestigial limbs and absolutely enormous brain territory; I can hardly hold my head upright, thanks be to God that my skull was able to expand to 5X the normal volume - size does matter.  And, my religious preferences are evolving over the years.      Sorry, I just could not resist. 

... Mountaineer

"Vestigial limbs."  I like that! 

In a few generations we'll all be fat atheists with tiny little flippers useful only for shoveling excess calories into our horrid, dripping jowls.  Maybe a few of the lighter-boned descendants will have evolved short, pathetic wings capable of barely lifting their bloated grey torsos a few feet above the rest of us as they sqwawk hoarsely from deep within their grotesquely long, urban-camo'ed necks.  It'll be beautiful. 

Oh my!  I have not laughed this hard since I found out what Medium Tex was all about. 

... Mountaineer

[dualstow]

Sure, Desert, why not. I'd almost rather you read Chris Hitchens, but you can take your pick. You're more likely to enjoy The Blind Watchmaker.

[dualstow]

Arguably is my favorite, but that's just a collection of essays about everything under the sun. To be on topic, I would say 'The Portable Atheist'.
I regret bringing him up, though, if it gets in the way of reading Dawkins. Watchmaker is very educational, while Hitchens' stuff is very persuasively logical.

[dualstow]

P.S. You could always watch Hitchens debate Rev Al Sharpton on youtube. He destroys.

[Mountaineer]

P.S. You could always watch Hitchens debate Rev Al Sharpton on youtube. He destroys.

My 11 year old granddaughter might be able to destroy Sharpton ... no offense to the Sharpton lovers. 

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

This article has some interesting observations about the "big bang".

"But over the past decades, the big bang theory has proven to be quite pliable.

When it was first introduced, the “big bang”? was sometimes an object of ridicule. But over the past decades, it has proven to be quite pliable, morphing to adapt to each new problem. Are these changes true improvements, or just rescuing devices?"

Read the rest of the article here:

https://answersingenesis.org/big-bang/b ... -a-theory/

There are several more "evolution" articles on the left side of the linked page for those who are interrested.

... Mountaineer

[moda0306]

P.S. You could always watch Hitchens debate Rev Al Sharpton on youtube. He destroys.

My 11 year old granddaughter might be able to destroy Sharpton ... no offense to the Sharpton lovers. 

... Mountaineer

I actually doubt anyone here would claim to have very strong positive feelings for sharpton. I don't hate him by any means, but find him to be horribly uninteresting and irrelevant to debates on anything, most of the time.

[dualstow]

P.S. You could always watch Hitchens debate Rev Al Sharpton on youtube. He destroys.

My 11 year old granddaughter might be able to destroy Sharpton ... no offense to the Sharpton lovers. 

Never mind Sharpton's half of the debate. Hitchens destroys intransitively. He's a pleasure to listen to.

[dualstow]

Dualstow, I think I'll go with the Dawkins book, even though I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy the Hitchens book more.  It seems like Dawkins is the leading voice for evolution these days.  Correct me if I'm wrong...

He's up there. Watchmaker is not a new book, but I think it will be revered as a classic.

[Mountaineer]

P.S. You could always watch Hitchens debate Rev Al Sharpton on youtube. He destroys.

My 11 year old granddaughter might be able to destroy Sharpton ... no offense to the Sharpton lovers. 

Never mind Sharpton's half of the debate. Hitchens destroys intransitively. He's a pleasure to listen to.

So is my granddaughter ... but I'm very biased. 

... Mountaineer

[Jan Van]

And that brings me to one factor that I think evolutionists miss or ignore:  If sheer numbers confer an advantage, then evolution could very well run in reverse.  People could get slower, fatter and more stupid. 

I don't think evolutionists ignore that. It might be because some people think about evolution as "survival of the fittest" which makes it sound like it will always be better stronger faster. But the concept is better defined as "natural selection", see What is Natural Selection? and What is Evolution? from Stated Clearly.

[Mountaineer]

If you wish to take about an hour to listen to some additional views on Dawkins, and are up for some Christian perspectives from learned people to expand your worldview, go to this link:

http://issuesetc.org/tag/richard-dawkins/

The third program, "Atheist Fundamentalism" discusses Dawkins.

The other two programs are also good if you have the time and inclination.

... Mountaineer

[Jan Van]

Dr. Alister McGrath of Oxford [glow=red,2,300]Iniversity[/glow]?

According to Wikipedia he does accept evolution, to keep it within the context of this thread 

[Mountaineer]

Dr. Alister McGrath of Oxford [glow=red,2,300]Iniversity[/glow]?

  I guess that is just another name for Di-versity or Uni-versity!  Too bad we Christians are not perfect spellers or proof readers like the "dark siders".  We are really good sinners, though.  JK.

... Mountaineer

[dualstow]

  Too bad we Christians are not perfect spellers or proof readers like the "dark siders". 

Dark siders? What are we, Satanists?  Nah, we're just Dawks-siders.

[Jan Van]

Dark siders? What are we, Satanists?

If we were, we would have a monument to sell you! 

[Mountaineer]

  Too bad we Christians are not perfect spellers or proof readers like the "dark siders". 

Dark siders? What are we, Satanists?  Nah, we're just Dawks-siders.

The day is not over yet, but you are in a commanding lead for the "Hoot of the Day" award! 

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

One more quick comment:  I know I'm just one of many in this thread, but I do want to say that I'd prefer to have this thread be more about evolution and less about religion.  I know the two can sometimes feel inseparable, but as much as possible, I'd love to focus in on how some of you have managed to come to a belief in evolution.  When I read or watch videos about evolution, I probably feel like some of you do when you're reading about religion.  It just seems too preposterous to be true; so many impossible holes to fill, so much contradiction, and no ability to test the theory in the present. 

So what are your favorite sources of evidence for evolution?

Desert and Pugchief,

I really appreciate what you are saying about more focus on evolution and less on religion - that would be great with me as I too am curious what leads the evolutionists to have faith in that hypothesis, just as I think they are curious as to how I can have faith in an unseen God.  I've been thinking quite a lot about it since Desert's post and had it reinforced with Pugchief's +100.  So far, I'm struggling because it seems Christianity and Creationism are directly and closely linked just like Evolution and Atheism, Environmentalism and perhaps Agnosticism (that one is a stretch), and peanut butter and jelly in a PB&J sandwich, but my point is by my observation of the practitioners, environmentalism and evolutionism are just as much a religion as Christianity is, albeit those involved in it don't see it that way most likely.  To refresh you, a god is what you put your trust and identity in or derive meaning and security from; when you worship at the throne of envionmentalism or evolution, that is your religion.  In our postmodern culture, those who put their trust in themselves and not an external source of right and wrong, have really made themselves their own god - and thus their thoughts are their own religion.  So, any help or insights you guys can offer - I'm all ears.  I think I'm missing something. 

... Mountaineer

[moda0306]

Mountaineer,

It's a scientific theory. Not a hypothesis.

There is a difference. 

I'll have more to say later but am swamped.

[Mountaineer]

Mountaineer,

It's a scientific theory. Not a hypothesis.

There is a difference. 

I'll have more to say later but am swamped.

Sticking strictly to "evolution", it seems it is more of a "scientific hypothesis" than a "scientific theory" but I am certainly no expert on the definitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

Mountaineer, I can't speak for others on the forum, but I used to really enjoy most of your posts, until MT started the Figuring Out Religion thread which seems to opened the door to more religion/Jesus/God/Christianity as an answer to everything. I feel almost like I am being proselytized when I read many of your posts now. I don't mean to sound like I am attacking you personally, because I am not; I respect your opinion and wisdom. We all know by now how Christianity is extremely important to you and how intertwined your thought process with it is. I just don't want to see it used as a basis to discuss virtually every topic here.

If I am off-base here, my apologies, and I am open to other member's opinion.

No apology necessary.  I asked, you answered.  Point taken.  I'll try to behave myself and keep the religion to the Figuring Out Religion thread unless something seems to be begging a religious response ... If that is the case, would it be better to just answer by saying I posted the answer in the Religion thread? 

To address your proselytized comment: I'm guilty as charged.  I just try to do my best to keep people from going to that "place that shall not be named", to give a paraphrased shout out to Harry Potter the "V" thing.  I do have to say that as my eyes have become more fully opened, many things do result from causes that fundamentally have a religious answer.  But, I respect your position and am open to other thoughts, as long as they don't muzzle me too severely  .

... Mountaineer