Carless living

Pointedstick · Post by **Pointedstick** » Wed May 21, 2014 5:10 pm

I've come to realize that I actually hate vehicles and practically only drive my car when I buy groceries or pick up large things at the local Home Depot that I can't have shipped directly to my house for free. And think I recall hearing that a few American members are living the carless lifestyle, so I'm pretty curious to hear what their experiences have been.

Was it hard to adapt? Are you single, or doing it with a family? How do you travel long distances? How do you travel moderate distances? How do you get to transit hubs (airport, train station, bus depot, etc)? For those who have a daily trip to work, do you make it on a bike? On public transit? How do you transport large things that can't be easily shipped directly to your house? Does it complicate Craigslist bargain hunting? Etc.

Post by **dualstow** » Wed May 21, 2014 7:45 pm

If you have a kid, you probably need a car.

I keep a license, but haven't used it in 20-25 years. I live near a train station, walk most everywhere, and use a cab maybe once a year. I depend on friends when I need to transport something heavy or big, or to go someplace that public transportation can't reach. It helps to have a sedentary lifestyle,and I'm surprised my wife accepted it.

The in-laws aren't thrilled, but they are on the other side of the globe. Ironically,my father in law just learned to drive at 60+ years of age, and the upshot is that he is spending his retirement chauffeuring his wife and cousins around, non-stop.

doodle · Post by **doodle** » Wed May 21, 2014 7:54 pm

Carless for six years now. I too can't stand being in a car. I feel like a caged animal and get mighty claustrophobic when stuck in traffic.

Went from car to motorcycle to bicycle.

I live in a small town/city.

Everything I need to survive is within walking/biking distance.

I don't see the need for travel since everything I need is close at hand. I also think physical travel is overrated anyways....I prefer to travel with my mind.

If I do have to go to the airport or something I find a friend or family member to drive me and I throw them some gas moneys or take them out for lunch or something.

I also don't really buy much so I don't have a need to haul stuff around but when I get my house built I'm probably going to get one of those bike trailers so I can haul loads if I need to.

clacy · Post by **clacy** » Wed May 21, 2014 8:01 pm

I love driving. Cars give me the feeling of freedom. I don't love driving in city traffic, and I hate long drives with my family, etc, but I've always had a career that required a lot of travel by car, and love driving long distances that way.

A car free lifestyle would certainly only work for those without kids, who live in a city, IMO.

WiseOne · Post by **WiseOne** » Wed May 21, 2014 10:11 pm

Love this thread....

It depends quite a lot on your local geography. Sometimes, no matter how much you'd prefer to walk or bike to your destination, the reality of highways, high speed roadways, and distances/limited time makes a car a necessity.

That said, I have NEVER lived anyplace where I couldn't handle most day to day errands without a car - including Los Angeles, which has a better bus/subway system than most people realize. I loved the bus to the airport from Santa Monica for 50 cents! Sadly, the NYC subway fares have gotten high enough (and service unreliable enough) that I no longer buy monthly passes. I've been biking a lot more instead.

PS, have you tried asking stores if they'd deliver? That's routine business around here, and even in suburbia there are places that would oblige a polite request for no more than a reasonable fee.

Post by **MediumTex** » Thu May 22, 2014 2:42 am

I enjoy driving a car if it's paid for.

WildAboutHarry · Post by **WildAboutHarry** » Thu May 22, 2014 7:16 am

When I read the subject line I saw "careless living" and couldn't wait to read all about reckless behavior

Put me in the got-to-have-a-car camp. Except for very brief periods, I have never lived in the big city. I grew up in the suburbs (Orange County, CA), and there was virtually no public transportation there at that time. Owning a car (or at least having access to one) was the ultimate symbol of liberation. If you didn't have your "learners permit" by 15 1/2, you were shunned by your peers!

And I am with MediumTex on the paid-for car thing. No car payment for more than a decade.

Pointedstick · Post by **Pointedstick** » Thu May 22, 2014 7:26 am

I suspect it is a highly generational thing. For people of or near the baby boomers' generation, cars were liberating in that they gave you physical freedom--the freedom to go where you pleased. But to younger crowds (myself included), we seem to be less interested in travel in the abstract, and cars are certainly not freedom symbols because to us; freedom is symbolized by the flow of information. Computers, smartphones, iPads, Facebook, Twitter, email, Wikipedia, forums, video games, the accumulation of vast pirated media libraries--all of those things are far more representational of freedom to us. When we were growing up, these were the cool new things, the ways to get in touch with your peers, bond over, and share information.

And that probably means we have an unbalanced fondness for technology that will be even more cruelly exploited by marketers as we age, used to sell us even greater levels of comforting but ultimately unsatisfying tchotchkes… the very same way that many aging baby boomers have been convinced to accumulate large garages full of expensive cars, trucks, boats, and trailers that slowly rust into rolling junkpiles between their yearly outings and monthly payments.

Post by **dualstow** » Thu May 22, 2014 7:32 am

ZipCar seems to be a popular option for millennials.

Kshartle · Post by **Kshartle** » Thu May 22, 2014 8:07 am

I find the babes like it when you have a nice set of wheels, cleaned up and comfortable with style. I find it projects a better impression of me than a beater would.

I bought a brand new Monte Carlo SS in 2001 for cash and drove it for 11 years. In the end it was pretty inexpensive with just one small repair over that time and it was very fun when I was in my early 20s.

I switched out for a new Cadillac CTS LS with the coolest paint job I've ever seen in 2012 and even though my car expense is up a couple hundred a month I find it's well worth it. What is a few hundred bucks a month compared to the convenience of having a perfectly reliable, stylish, comfortable transportation that exudes success and confidence? At the end of the day it's not that much more than driving something cheaper but in need of repairs or hoofing it which wastes a much more valuable asset....your time.

Admittedly my father retired from GM so I get a big discount on brand new models and I live in Pinellas county Florida which other members will confirm is car mandatory.

I think having a car, a nice one (within reason), is actually less expensive in the long-run because it provides so much value for your $$$.

clacy · Post by **clacy** » Thu May 22, 2014 8:52 am

Very few who live in fly over country like me could make a carless lifestyle work unless they're retired. Being a soccer dad with three young children, and a job that requires heavy travel throughout the midwest, this couldn't see further from reality for me.

Post by **dualstow** » Thu May 22, 2014 9:04 am

Can't have a car/carless thread without adding this: when self-driving cars are popular, I will consider having a car.

Preferably an electric one, and something easy to maintain.

I still don't have a garage, though, and am jealous of the generation (maybe 3 from now?) that will see ubiquitous autodriven cars and probably won't need a garage.

WiseOne · Post by **WiseOne** » Thu May 22, 2014 9:22 am

Zipcars would be great, except that they're pretty pricey for anything longer than a day trip and it's often difficult to find one on short notice. If that model were to become more extensive and cars more easily available and more reasonably priced for multi-day trips, it would be a terrific alternative to owning, licensing, insuring, maintaining, and housing a car. Is anyone able/willing to figure out and post how much they spend on car ownership and use? I'm genuinely curious.

I'm with you dualstow & ps...for whatever reason I really hate driving, makes me feel like I'm in a cage. It's sometimes necessary, not something to do for pleasure or status symbol reasons - that I never really understood.

Post by **dualstow** » Thu May 22, 2014 9:35 am

WiseOne wrote:I'm with you dualstow & ps...for whatever reason I really hate driving, makes me feel like I'm in a cage. It's sometimes necessary, not something to do for pleasure or status symbol reasons - that I never really understood.

I did enjoy riding with my family on road trips as a child. Of course, I didn't have to do any of the driving, maintenance or paying. I merely had to operate our 8-track boombox complete with 70s music (then new) and wonder at all the things I could see out the window. As with television, the novelty has long worn off. :-)

Btw, I don't mind the enclosed space of a car, myself. But, I'm not a wonderful driver, everyone else seems to be texting, and I hate the way roads & signs are designed. I never felt like I had enough time to drive and navigate in unfamiliar territory, e.g. only 4 seconds to read a sign and then traverse several lanes to get to the proper turn. I enjoy reading or listening to an audiobook on a train and leaving the driving to someone else.

Pointedstick · Post by **Pointedstick** » Thu May 22, 2014 9:36 am

At this point I think it makes financial sense to keep the car. There's no loan attached to it, my insurance premiums are fairly low, and I escaped from a state that charges $200+ for yearly registration and requires smog checks. Mint says that my annual car expenses are around $1,000 a year, which is something like one eighth of the national average ($8k/yr IIRC). The breakdown is about one third gas, one third insurance, and one third maintenance and repairs. In some years, DMV fees and other such garbage can make up a quarter or so.

But it's not so much about the money; it's more about the hassle. Cars are big and bulky, and they take up a lot of space. My house has a two-car garage and occupies an additional 550 or so square feet of land as a result, which I'm being taxed on and that constitutes extra roof area I will have to pay for when I have it re-done. Even though I live in a sane state where "traffic" is laughably low compared to a nutbar place like California or NYC, you can still never escape going 10 mph on the highway or hunting for parking every now and then. The inevitable deterioration is also a hassle. If you drive it, parts wear out and need to be replaced. If you don't drive it, it starts to corrode and rust. Fixing it yourself is extremely difficult nowadays (and getting harder all the time with all the stupid complicated fragile technology they're jamming into cars to make driving suck less), and hiring someone else to do it is nearly always shockingly expensive. Every time I try to learn car maintenance I'm stymied by the high learning curve, required arsenal of tools I don't have, and risk of breaking the damn thing.

Then there's the government aspect. You have to register the damn thing yearly; you have to maintain a license; you have to buy car insurance whose price is far inflated due to the mandate. When you drive it, you're at risk of victimization by the police. When you move from state to state, you have to redo all of this and it's a big pain in the butt. And handling it requires visiting a deathless, soulless bureaucracy. It seems like the government goes out of its way to make car ownership suck.

I guess it's the inefficiency of motor vehicles that bothers me. It just seems like they're designed to be expensive and annoying. Rapid point-to-point transportation is a wonderful capability, but cars bring so much baggage along with it…

Pointedstick · Post by **Pointedstick** » Thu May 22, 2014 9:44 am

…Which I guess you could say about anything. A house is inefficient for shelter if you don't like home maintenance and have no mechanical skills. A computer is inefficient for communication if you don't like technology and have no technical skills.

Post by **Xan** » Thu May 22, 2014 9:54 am

WiseOne wrote:I'm with you dualstow & ps...for whatever reason I really hate driving, makes me feel like I'm in a cage. It's sometimes necessary, not something to do for pleasure or status symbol reasons - that I never really understood.

Get a manual transmission convertible. Not much cage-like about that.

doodle · Post by **doodle** » Thu May 22, 2014 10:23 am

Xan wrote:
WiseOne wrote:I'm with you dualstow & ps...for whatever reason I really hate driving, makes me feel like I'm in a cage. It's sometimes necessary, not something to do for pleasure or status symbol reasons - that I never really understood.
Get a manual transmission convertible. Not much cage-like about that.

even worse in my opinion. A manual in traffic is almost torturous. Maybe if the road was a racetrack, but its not where I come from. Just long straight lanes with rows of slow moving traffic.

moda0306 · Post by **moda0306** » Thu May 22, 2014 10:27 am

doodle wrote:
Xan wrote:
WiseOne wrote:I'm with you dualstow & ps...for whatever reason I really hate driving, makes me feel like I'm in a cage. It's sometimes necessary, not something to do for pleasure or status symbol reasons - that I never really understood.
Get a manual transmission convertible. Not much cage-like about that.
even worse in my opinion. A manual in traffic is almost torturous. Maybe if the road was a racetrack, but its not where I come from. Just long straight lanes with rows of slow moving traffic.

I love manuals, but when you get to a part of the freeway where you're slowly inching up a mild hill in bad traffic, it's maddening.

Especially if it was "leg day" at the gym.

doodle · Post by **doodle** » Thu May 22, 2014 10:48 am

I used to work as a valet and I have literally driven every car under the sun....Mclarens, Lamborghinis, Rolls Royce you name it. People used to ask me all the time what my favorite car to drive was....I always told them a minivan. Driving to me is a completely utilitarian pursuit. I dont own a car now, but if I did its time from 0-60 or what it looked like wouldnt make a lick of difference to me. If I were going to drive highway one I might rent a sportscar, but for 99.9% of the driving that most people do on a daily basis your average car is way overpowered, has horrible fuel efficiency, has design take precedence over visibility and safety....etc. etc.

moda0306 · Post by **moda0306** » Thu May 22, 2014 11:10 am

doodle wrote: I used to work as a valet and I have literally driven every car under the sun....Mclarens, Lamborghinis, Rolls Royce you name it. People used to ask me all the time what my favorite car to drive was....I always told them a minivan. Driving to me is a completely utilitarian pursuit. I dont own a car now, but if I did its time from 0-60 or what it looked like wouldnt make a lick of difference to me. If I were going to drive highway one I might rent a sportscar, but for 99.9% of the driving that most people do on a daily basis your average car is way overpowered, gets horrible fuel efficiency, has design take precedence over visibility and safety....etc. etc.

doodle,

Within the realm of risk & utility/opportunity-cost, I'm less and less convinced that cars are over-powered. The power needed to get my 4-banger up to speed on an on-ramp was often barely adequate. Power can actually reduce risk, if used correctly. I used to be of the opinion that cars were WAY too big, but if I look at it without the environmental considerations, if you ARE going to drive a lot (I'd recommend getting a home close to work, or vice versa), you would probably be better off having a vehicle that has a reasonable power band through 70 mph, and is big enough not to get f'ed up too badly in an accident. I think the itsy bitsy cars of this world are financially idiotic when one factors in the risk one takes by driving one.

Keep in mind, two of my favorite cars, risk NOT factored in, are a Mini Cooper and Lotus Elise.

Pains me to say... but you're far better living closer to where you spend most of your time, and driving a more substantial vehicle, but being more efficient about when where you drive. If you factor in the value of your life and physical status, and the risk posed against it by driving an economy-car that can barely get up to the speeds it needs to to handle itself on the freeway, it seems like a bad value-proposition to me for the benefit of achieving 25% improved MPG. If gas is busting your budget, there are bigger structural issues at play hurting you than the fact that you drive a 2004 Avalon instead of a 2004 Honda Civic.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Thu May 22, 2014 11:15 am

Cost of ownership over about 200,000 miles, car purchased new and driven approximately 10k to 12k miles/year; Volvo 850 Turbo Sedan with most of the bells and whistles available at the time. I keep very detailed records on a spreadsheet, literally every dollar spent on my vehicles. All maintenance at least as often as the owner's manual recommendation except for oil/filter change which I did about twice as often as specified and used full synthetic oil. Most maintenance done at the dealership. Donated the car to Goodwill about 2 years ago after I hit a large rock in the road which did a lot of damage; engine and transmission were still as good as new. It was a great car in all respects for me - comfort, safety, handling, power, and totally reliable - zero breakdowns. I can't even imagine being "carless" in my area - it would be similar to being in a nursing home, deaf and blind and dependent on others for my daily needs (not to mention wants).

About 50 cents per mile full cost (all maintenance, repairs, depreciation, insurance etc.) and about 25 cents per mile variable.

... Mountaineer

barrett · Post by **barrett** » Thu May 22, 2014 2:35 pm

Mountaineer, can you clarify? Is that 50 cents total per mile or 75 cents total per mile? My wife and I have a 2008 Volvo XC-70 and I had read in Consumer Reports a while back that the per-mile cost was around 88 cents per mile. That always seemed high to me but not ridiculously so.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Thu May 22, 2014 2:53 pm

barrett wrote: Mountaineer, can you clarify? Is that 50 cents total per mile or 75 cents total per mile? My wife and I have a 2008 Volvo XC-70 and I had read in Consumer Reports a while back that the per-mile cost was around 88 cents per mile. That always seemed high to me but not ridiculously so.

Sorry for the confusion. 51.1 cents total per mile. My experience is for a vehicle kept for 17 years. Depreciation in the latter years was very low. I expect that is a major reason for the difference between the CR article and my experience; CR probably is using 5 years or so to determine depreciation (just as a guess).

Breakdown for my vehicle with costs rounded to nearest half cent: Fuel about 20 cents/mile, variable maintenance (more miles related) about 5 cents/mile, insurance and fees about 5 cents/mile and depreciation about 16.5 cents/mile and fixed maintenance (more time related) about 5 cents/mile. I did not count any road tolls in my totals since that is mostly dependent on where you live.

... Mountaineer

WildAboutHarry · Post by **WildAboutHarry** » Thu May 22, 2014 3:15 pm

[quote=Pointedstick]I suspect it is a highly generational thing. For people of or near the baby boomers' generation, cars were liberating in that they gave you physical freedom--the freedom to go where you pleased. But to younger crowds (myself included), we seem to be less interested in travel in the abstract, and cars are certainly not freedom symbols because to us; freedom is symbolized by the flow of information. Computers, smartphones, iPads, Facebook, Twitter, email, Wikipedia, forums, video games, the accumulation of vast pirated media libraries--all of those things are far more representational of freedom to us. When we were growing up, these were the cool new things, the ways to get in touch with your peers, bond over, and share information.[/quote]

Jeez, I feel old $:-\$

But along with my liberation via vehicle, my information inputs are just fine. From where I sit I can see a Samsung Galaxy Note II, two Windows 8 machines, a Raspberry Pi, a Samsung tablet, a Roku, and there is a relatively new GPS (large screen for weak "boomer" eyes) in my vehicle. Although on further reflection, perhaps my seeking information flow is just symptomatic of another boomer failing - not acting our age

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