Optimal Salt Intake / The Permanent Rehydration Water

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 11136
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Optimal Salt Intake / The Permanent Rehydration Water

Post by MachineGhost » Sat May 03, 2014 8:16 am

Once again, the mainstream consensus and public policy is at odds with the scientific evidence.  Sodium intake has a U-curve response, where too low and too high sodium increases all cause mortality.  Similarly to cholesterol, public policy has it set in the too low area.  What's ironic is that despite five decades of public policy propaganda to lower your salt intake, 95% of Americans have ignored it.  What does Nature know that bureaucrats do not?  Hah!

Now personally, I believe that the potassium to sodium ratio could be far more iimportant than sodium intake per se, as sodium and potassium play key roles in maintaining homeostatis of the intracellular and extracullar fluids.  They also play key roles in the normal operation of the adrenal and thyroid glands.  But until scientists funded by public policy think tanks or government agencies manage to get up to this higher level of inquiry, we'll have to settle for a sodium U-curve.

Why am so interested in this subject?  Well, on my last blood test a year ago there were indications that I was suffering from dehydration.  I just chalked it off to being dehydrated during the fast period before the blood was drawn.  However, as I've been using an infrared sauna daily for over 10 years now, it did not occur to me the dehydration might be indicative of a bigger issue until I took an intro physiology course about two months ago.

First, the course inspired me to come up with what I call "The Permanent Rehydration Water" which is water specifically aimed to rehydrate the body as quickly as possible.  Unlike commerical junx like Gatorade, etc. this is a hypotonic solution which means it will be rapidly uptaked through the stomach.  Gatorade, et al. is based on science that's over 50 years years old, so we can forgive them for it being tonic rather than hypotonic.  Worse, there are even hypertonic sports waters now which is an oxymoron.  But anything to make a buck due to marketing fiction!

Rehydration Water Recipe:
1 cup filtered water
1/2 tsp dextrose powder
1 smidgen (1/32 tsp) Himalayan Salt (or some other unrefined salt with potassium, calcium and magnesium trace minerals)
Half a smidgen (1/64 tsp) Potassium Chloride Powder

If you make 10 cups of the water at a time, increase the salt to a pinch (1/16 tsp).  At 19 cups, increase to a dash (1/8 tsp).  The potassium scales up likewise.

Next, over several days I weighed myself before the sauna after drinking the Rehydration Water, and again after I was done.  To my surprise it ultimately took four cups of the Rehydration Water to not lose any weight!  Just for a 40-minute session.  A simple rule of thumb to determine how much water you need to drink before any activity is to multiple your post-activity weight loss by 1.5 and that is the amount in ounces.  Example: Lose two lbs during an activity = 48 ozs before and during the activity.  Since most people should drink two cups of water immediately upon arising to rehydrate their body after sleeping so long, I surmise that doing that alone was not enough to deal with both the dehydrating sleep and the dehydrating sauna.  But, numbers do not lie.  Weigh yourself!

Now, I had been adding 1/8th tsp of salt or potassium to my two cups of regular water until I switched to the Rehydration Water, but I had no way of knowing if it was or was not effective and if it was too much total salt intake for the day (potassium we're all deficient in, but gastrointestinal pains limit how much you can ingest as a powder).  It also seemed pretty clear to me despite the large quantities of water I did drink throughout the day, it was just passing through pretty rapidly.  It wasn't until I saw the sodium U-curve results published a few days ago, that I decided to look into the salt issue more closely.  So what I did was I pre-measured out the amount of salt at the lower end of the U-curve and used it the next day for salting or seasoning food.  Well not surprisingly, at the end of the day, there was 1/2 tsp + 1/8 tsp of salt leftover!  Would have beeen 1/4 tsp less if I had two servings of rice instead of one.  Whats surprising is how much salt you can add while cooking food that "disappears" compared to salting with the same amount on top of it.  But overall, it is clear I need to take 1/2 tsp of salt every day bare minimum just to get a healthy amount of sodium.  Now technically, adding that much salt (I used 1/4 tsp per two cups) to the Rehydration Water could kick it out of being hypotonic, but I didn't notice any digestion issues.

The U-curve for the healthiest sodium intake is: 2645mg to 4945mg.  To convert that to salt, multiply by 2.5, i.e. 2645mg of salt is 6612.5mg of salt, about 1 1/8 tsp.

Summary: It's very easy to not even get to the lower end of the range if you avoid all processed, canned and junx food as I do.  Don't exacerbate it further with inadequate water intake due to sleep, sweaty exercise and/or saunas.  So measure, measure, measure!
Last edited by MachineGhost on Sat May 31, 2014 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
dragoncar
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1163
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:23 pm

Re: Optimal Salt Intake / The Permanent Rehydration Water

Post by dragoncar » Sat May 03, 2014 5:14 pm

If the above is too hard, they do sell a potassium-sodium salt mix in the grocery store.
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 11136
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Optimal Salt Intake / The Permanent Rehydration Water

Post by MachineGhost » Sun May 04, 2014 12:36 pm

dragoncar wrote: If the above is too hard, they do sell a potassium-sodium salt mix in the grocery store.
You mean the Morton Lite style salts?  That would be good substitute, although technically the potassium should be half the amount of the sodium (same for the calcium and magnesium).

You will definitely know if you take too much salt all at once...  run for the hills!

I can't recommend regular sugar in place of the dextrose powder.  Fructose is slow absorbing, besides being a toxin to the body.  In comparison, Gatorade uses high fructose corn syrup, but I believe back in the beginning it was regular sugar.  And there's way too much of that high fructose corn sugar per serving which is why it is tonic (sits in stomach) not hypotonic (rapid uptake).
Last edited by MachineGhost on Sun May 04, 2014 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
Kriegsspiel
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1619
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:28 pm

Re: Optimal Salt Intake / The Permanent Rehydration Water

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun May 04, 2014 2:23 pm

If I'm thinking of the right thing, that looks like what aid workers give third world people when they have diarrhea, because they stand less chance of puking it up.
To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 11136
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Optimal Salt Intake / The Permanent Rehydration Water

Post by MachineGhost » Thu May 15, 2014 6:48 am

While the forum was down, I had a chance to look into the science of pediatric rehydration drinks.  Pretty interesting stuff.  The first rehydration drink was cooked up by the WHO in the late 70's, but it had so much salt in it, it would cause a lot of health problems and deaths from the excess sodium, and was later rectified into a second version by the WHO which was finalized in 2001 after field testing.  That one is still too salty for infants/kids to take for commercial purposes, so an alternative version was cooked up by Abbott Labs known as Pedialyte which is sold in grocery stores (it reduces the salt by half and doubles the sugar).  There's a lot of clone versions of Pedialyte sold too, but some are not hypotonic and some are even hypertonic, so it's caveat emptor as usual.

I was wrong about Gatorade and sports drinks being isotonic.  They are actually hypertonic, so they are even worse than before.  The definition of hypotonic is an osmolity below 280 mOsm/liter, isotonic between 280-295.  Gatorade is way up in the 350-430 range, doesn't have enough sodium and the 6% sugar is too high.  The ideal hypotonic range is between 225-250 mOsm/l with the dextrose and sodium in an equimolar concentration.  That's exactly what the second formula from WHO is, called ORS-75 or Rehydralyte commercially (I don't believe its available anymore).  DIY formula:

Per 950ml (quart) of water:
3.5 teaspoons dextrose powder
3/4 teaspoon Real Salt, Himalayan or Celtic salt
1/4 teaspoon potassium chloride powder

This will provide 3.375 grams of carbs, 431.25 mg of sodium, 195.5 mg of potassium and 700.25 mg of chloride.  The carbs and sodium are equimolar (they are not in Pedialyte).  The Rehydralyte contains citrate as a base, but as the use of salt provides 500mg more chloride than in the Rehydralyte, omitting the citrate will maintain about the same 250 mOsm/l osmolarity.

I am currently trying this out and comparing it to the original formula I posted.  There may be a difference between what is effective for pediatric rehydration and adult rehydration.  So far, after increasing my salt intake by 1/2 tsp a day along with the original formula and now switching to this DIY Rehydralate, I'm feeling like the increased salt intake is not having good effects (increased pressure in head, minor heart pain).  Maybe I am too adapted to a low-salt diet for too long that I can't tolerate such a rapid increase?

I need to look into refined table salt vs unrefined natural salt as there may be concentration differences between the sodium and the chloride or other minerals.  Standard table salt is 40% sodium and 60% chloride, but since unrefined salt has trace minerals, its bound to take away from one or the other.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 11136
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Optimal Salt Intake / The Permanent Rehydration Water

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:19 pm

Was reviewing this thread as I am going to make up some more rehydration water and noticed this part wasn't clear in that the amounts were per cup:
This will provide 3.375 grams of carbs, 431.25 mg of sodium, 195.5 mg of potassium and 700.25 mg of chloride.  The carbs and sodium are equimolar (they are not in Pedialyte).  The Rehydralyte contains citrate as a base, but as the use of table salt provides 500mg more chloride than in the Rehydralyte, omitting the citrate will maintain about the same 250 mOsm/l osmolarity.
Incidentally, if you add Gatorlytes to a 20oz bottle of Gatorade Thirst Quencher as recommended, the total electrolytes are more or less identical to Rehydralyte without the citrate and with a bit of magnesium and calcium thrown in.  But of course, there's about 14 teaspoons of sugar in that 20oz bottle, which completely ruins the osmolality.  Nice marketing fiction racket they have going there in performing no original research for over 40 years.

There's no significant difference in composition between refined and unrefined salt other than refined is chemically treated and has flowing additives you don't need to be ingesting as well as lacking all the numerous trace minerals that unrefined salt has.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
hoost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:24 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Optimal Salt Intake / The Permanent Rehydration Water

Post by hoost » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:08 pm

Thanks for bringing this back to the top.  I'd been considering, or meaning to consider anyway, a homemade sports drink using dextrose and salt.  Didn't know about the potassium chloride being beneficial.  I see Morton makes a salt balance that appears to be 25% potassium chloride and 75% sodium chloride.  I guess this wouldn't have some of the desirable trace minerals of the various sea salts, though.  Are they critical?

Do you make this in 1 qt batches, or larger?  Have you tried juicing a lemon into it or something for a little acidity and flavor? I usually keep the gatorade powder on hand for the peak of summer; do you see any problems with premixing some of this into a bulk powder to carry around and add to water as needed?

I've definitely noticed that it feels different drinking a lightly mixed gatorade powder in the summer after a long run vs. straight water.  It makes sense that the lower concentration absorbs better; I think I've experienced that, too.
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 11136
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Optimal Salt Intake / The Permanent Rehydration Water

Post by MachineGhost » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:45 pm

hoost wrote: Thanks for bringing this back to the top.  I'd been considering, or meaning to consider anyway, a homemade sports drink using dextrose and salt.  Didn't know about the potassium chloride being beneficial.  I see Morton makes a salt balance that appears to be 25% potassium chloride and 75% sodium chloride.  I guess this wouldn't have some of the desirable trace minerals of the various sea salts, though.  Are they critical?
Morton sells refined sea salt (which has no flowing additives compared to regular salt), so I wouldn't expect any trace minerals.  They are not critical for rehydration water.
Do you make this in 1 qt batches, or larger?  Have you tried juicing a lemon into it or something for a little acidity and flavor? I usually keep the gatorade powder on hand for the peak of summer; do you see any problems with premixing some of this into a bulk powder to carry around and add to water as needed?
I make it a gallon at a time.  No I don't, but the lemon juice would change the osmolality due to the citric acid, so be forewarned.  The Gatorade already has some minerals, so that could change the osmolality as well.  It's not much though, so I suppose you could measure the Gatorade powder so you get the exact amount of dextrose you need for the rehydration water.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2764
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Optimal Salt Intake / The Permanent Rehydration Water

Post by doodle » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:33 pm

Been thinking about and reading about what to do regarding my water for awhile. For the most part my tap water is okay (http://www.pinellascounty.org/utilities ... R_2014.pdf) but I don't mind spending a little extra to just be sure.

I have been looking at Reverse Osmosis type systems but then you read about W.H.O study regarding problems with drinking demineralized water... http://www.waterfyi.com/featured/w-h-o- ... a-believe/

So what to do???
All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. - Blaise Pascal
User avatar
Pointedstick
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9729
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Optimal Salt Intake / The Permanent Rehydration Water

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:51 pm

That report paints a pretty great picture of your water supply. I wouldn't bother with anything more than a simple sink or pitcher filter that will remove some of the copper and lead that are leaching out of the pipes and plumbing fixtures. Keep it simple.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2764
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Optimal Salt Intake / The Permanent Rehydration Water

Post by doodle » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:59 pm

And the fluoride? Not a concern to you evidently...I don't know where I stand on that one. So much conflicting information
All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. - Blaise Pascal
User avatar
Pointedstick
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9729
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Optimal Salt Intake / The Permanent Rehydration Water

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:27 pm

I generally try for "good enough" in all aspects of life. Every time I walk outside, the bright sunshine in my mile-high climate is contributing to my risk of skin cancer and probability of looking like I'm made of shoe leather in my 60s. I wear a hat and long pants and call it a day. You can go crazy trying to optimize everything.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
Post Reply