I totally agree we need to establish definitions!!! I've spent pages with you in other debates trying to do so.Kshartle wrote:Before agreeing on premises it's best to agree on definitions, specifically the definition of "deserve".moda0306 wrote:That, and whether there is any form of deserving in the first place. If there is, and it takes property to help, then that means "they deserve someone else's property." (Deductive logic)Xan wrote: I believe that Moda is responding to the argument that receiving help causes dependence, allows bad behavior, etc. That part of the discussion doesn't differentiate between forced/government help and voluntary help.
If they don't deserve the help (because it requires someone else's property), then let that be your premise upon which you say "stop stealing from me to help the poor because none of them deserve help" rather than trying to explain how great charities and churches work at helping people.
All I want to accomplish with some of these discussions is to find certain valid premises on top of which to build our arguments. If people don't deserve help, then we're WAY over-complicating the discussion of help for the needy, babies, disabled, etc. Just say they don't deserve it.
To you it implies an obligation on the part of another. That's fine....but this obligation must arise from a voluntary agreement. Example - If I sell something on Ebay, the customer "deserves" to have the goods shipped to them by me.
Just being poor doesn't make you deserving.
I don't 100% believe that "deserve" MUST imply duty... but it's something I guess I was inclined to believe. I actually think there is some scholarly debate on this based on a couple sites I've hit on while searching.
This is pretty important though. The way you define "deserving" seems to make it much more a function of the individual providing the charitable service than the one receiving it. Usually we ask ourselves "is he deserving of some help?" But nowhere in that do we try to determine whether he's getting help as the DECIDING factor as to whether or not he deserved it in the first place.