The White Ghetto

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Kshartle
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Re: The White Ghetto

Post by Kshartle » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:40 pm

moda0306 wrote: Kshartle,

We can't run out of other people's money in a closed system... nor can you with the way our fiat monetary system works.

So if you can provide some reason why providing housing, food, education, and healthcare will collapse a society (into not being able to provide it for people going forward), I'm all ears... but based on where western civilization is at today, it doesn't appear that your argument holds much water.  Many very prosperous countries provide these safety nets to people.
Ok money doesn't feed people or house people. Food and housing do. Peopel need to produce that. When you create so many dependants that the producers can no longer support them you've run out.

The expression has the word money in it but it's not meant to be taken litterally. Obviously, look at Zimbabwae. They didn't run out of money....they were using 100 trillion bills as wallpaper. It's a meaningless distinction though.

What good did having 100 trillion dollar bills do for the poor there? The poorest person was worth 100s of trillions.
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Re: The White Ghetto

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:42 pm

moda0306 wrote: Kshartle,

We can't run out of other people's money in a closed system... nor can you with the way our fiat monetary system works.

So if you can provide some reason why providing housing, food, education, and healthcare will collapse a society (into not being able to provide it for people going forward), I'm all ears... but based on where western civilization is at today, it doesn't appear that your argument holds much water.  Many very prosperous countries provide these safety nets to people.
Like France?
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Re: The White Ghetto

Post by Kshartle » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:42 pm

I Shrugged wrote: I'm of the opinion that it's hopeless.  Prosperity and democracy lead to overly-generous welfare, using the term very generally.  Eventually entitlements and programs become too much for the productive economy to bear, and a long slide begins.  Then hungry upstarts, countries on the rise, will take over.  Rinse and repeat.  I don't see a way out of it for the USA.

My way of dealing with it was to take a cue from Ayn Rand, and stop supporting the looters.  I sold my business, and structured my investments so as to incur extremely low taxes.
We need to all listen to her. I disagree with her on plenty, but wow, she was brilliant and brutally clear, even in a 2nd language.
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Re: The White Ghetto

Post by moda0306 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:51 pm

Kshartle wrote:
moda0306 wrote: Kshartle,

We can't run out of other people's money in a closed system... nor can you with the way our fiat monetary system works.

So if you can provide some reason why providing housing, food, education, and healthcare will collapse a society (into not being able to provide it for people going forward), I'm all ears... but based on where western civilization is at today, it doesn't appear that your argument holds much water.  Many very prosperous countries provide these safety nets to people.
Ok money doesn't feed people or house people. Food and housing do. Peopel need to produce that. When you create so many dependants that the producers can no longer support them you've run out.

The expression has the word money in it but it's not meant to be taken litterally. Obviously, look at Zimbabwae. They didn't run out of money....they were using 100 trillion bills as wallpaper. It's a meaningless distinction though.

What good did having 100 trillion dollar bills do for the poor there? The poorest person was worth 100s of trillions.
Ok, so what you're saying is that there is going to be such a huge growth of the needy class that the productive class will either fall into it, or just leave, right?  Actually... it seems you think we're already there.

Do you have any figures to back this up, either in foreign countries or domestically?  Do you have anything that shows that welfare and social support is growing massively as a percentage of GDP?

Also, if this was the case, I would expect to see a flattening of discrepancy of income... if being productive sucks so friggin' bad, and the moral hazards are so lucrative towards NOT being so, why are rich people becoming MORE and MORE wealthy compared to everyone else?  They must be masochists!

And more importantly, if welfare (and other social support) is so much better than working, why do you work so dang hard (I assume you do)?  This isn't rhetorical... legit question...
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."

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Re: The White Ghetto

Post by Kshartle » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:56 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Kshartle wrote:
moda0306 wrote: Kshartle,

We can't run out of other people's money in a closed system... nor can you with the way our fiat monetary system works.

So if you can provide some reason why providing housing, food, education, and healthcare will collapse a society (into not being able to provide it for people going forward), I'm all ears... but based on where western civilization is at today, it doesn't appear that your argument holds much water.  Many very prosperous countries provide these safety nets to people.
Ok money doesn't feed people or house people. Food and housing do. Peopel need to produce that. When you create so many dependants that the producers can no longer support them you've run out.

The expression has the word money in it but it's not meant to be taken litterally. Obviously, look at Zimbabwae. They didn't run out of money....they were using 100 trillion bills as wallpaper. It's a meaningless distinction though.

What good did having 100 trillion dollar bills do for the poor there? The poorest person was worth 100s of trillions.
Ok, so what you're saying is that there is going to be such a huge growth of the needy class that the productive class will either fall into it, or just leave, right?  Actually... it seems you think we're already there.

Do you have any figures to back this up, either in foreign countries or domestically?  Do you have anything that shows that welfare and social support is growing massively as a percentage of GDP?

Also, if this was the case, I would expect to see a flattening of discrepancy of income... if being productive sucks so friggin' bad, and the moral hazards are so lucrative towards NOT being so, why are rich people becoming MORE and MORE wealthy compared to everyone else?  They must be masochists!

And more importantly, if welfare (and other social support) is so much better than working, why do you work so dang hard (I assume you do)?  This isn't rhetorical... legit question...
Food stamp usage has doubled in 5 years.

Labor participation is falling.

More people are going on social security every year......it is set to explode.

Rich are getting richer because the QE has inflated the price of their assets.

Poor are getting poorer because the QE has made stuff more expensive.

Middle class is getting hurt for the same reason, plus regulations are killing businesses.

Welfare doesn't seem like a good alternative for me. But I'm pretty smart, have a simple, stress-free (for me) and lucrative job. This is not the case for many.
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Re: The White Ghetto

Post by goodasgold » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:04 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Kshartle wrote:
moda0306 wrote: Kshartle,

Ok, so what you're saying is that there is going to be such a huge growth of the needy class that the productive class will either fall into it, or just leave, right?....

Do you have any figures to back this up, either in foreign countries or domestically?  Do you have anything that shows that welfare and social support is growing massively as a percentage of GDP?

Venezuela, Argentina, Zimbabwe, France, Britain. The productive folks are fighting back in Britain. For evidence, just Google the hard-hitting (and devastating) new Brit TV documentary called "Benefits Street." It is an eye-opener for all but the most Krugmanesque tin foil helmeted.
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Re: The White Ghetto

Post by Pointedstick » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:25 pm

moda0306 wrote: Do you have any figures to back this up, either in foreign countries or domestically?  Do you have anything that shows that welfare and social support is growing massively as a percentage of GDP?
Image
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/ent ... t_spending

Moving money from person A to person B gobbles up 17% of GDP! Om nom nom…
Last edited by Pointedstick on Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The White Ghetto

Post by goodasgold » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:32 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
moda0306 wrote: Do you have any figures to back this up, either in foreign countries or domestically?  Do you have anything that shows that welfare and social support is growing massively as a percentage of GDP?
Image
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/welfare_spending
Welfare is welfare no matter what name the government uses to describe (or hide) it. PS, you are good at finding visual aids, so please post a graph of the U.S. gov's unfunded liabilities. It is a shocker.
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Re: The White Ghetto

Post by moda0306 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:33 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
moda0306 wrote: Do you have any figures to back this up, either in foreign countries or domestically?  Do you have anything that shows that welfare and social support is growing massively as a percentage of GDP?
Image
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/ent ... t_spending
A few things....

So we're essentially not too far from where we were at in 1977 or so... There doesn't seem to be much growth there.  And maybe what growth there is, is POSSIBLY a result of, not a contributor to, the loss of opportunity in our economy for lower classes.

SS is up because we have more retirees in general... not an overall growth in dependency.

The most recent spike is obviously a natural result of a financial crisis followed by recession and rampant unemployment.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."

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Re: The White Ghetto

Post by Pointedstick » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:33 pm

And if we consider education as a form of welfare:

Image
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/education_spending
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Re: The White Ghetto

Post by moda0306 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:35 pm

Pointedstick wrote: And if we consider education as a form of welfare:

Image
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/education_spending
So education hasn't really changed as a percentage of GDP since 1970.

Thanks for proving my point. :)

All we ever hear about is how out of control spending on this stuff is.
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Re: The White Ghetto

Post by Pointedstick » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:36 pm

moda0306 wrote: A few things....

So we're essentially not too far from where we were at in 1977 or so... There doesn't seem to be much growth there.  And maybe what growth there is, is POSSIBLY a result of, not a contributor to, the loss of opportunity in our economy for lower classes.
I don't know how you can look at that graph and say, "hmm, not much growth." To me it looks like welfare's share of GDP rose from 12% to 17%. That's a 40% increase!!!

Obviously there are reasons for this increase. But I don't particularly think any of those reasons are good. Having more people dependent on the government for their basic expenses doesn't strike me as a good thing.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
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