Figuring Out Religion

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by pp4me » Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:53 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:43 pm
pp4me wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:33 pm
Ad Orientem wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:55 pm
pugchief wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:53 pm
Is switching from one incarnation of Christianity to another really 'changing religions' ? It's one thing to go from Christianity to Judaism or Islam, or vice versa, but the basic premise of Jesus is the overarching tenant of the whole thing, no?

It would depend on how much importance one places on doctrinal issues. If they carry great weight, then yes, it's a big deal. For latitudinarians and broad church types, it can be little more than a matter of personal taste in style of worship and so on.
I changed churches probably about 10 times during my religious period. Eventually I abandoned it altogether.

After watching debates between Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris I might actually still be a Christian according to Jordan Peterson's definition and I have no problem with him saying so unlike Mr. Harris. I bear no ill will towards the religion in general and believe it even has much to commend it if you don't have to take it as literal truth. When that becomes the criteria for avoiding eternal damnation I have to politely opt out of that way of thinking.

Sounds very broad church, maybe bordering on classical deism. All of which reminds me of the old question; what happens when you cross a Jehovah's Witness with a Unitarian Universalist?

You get someone who will knock on your door, but can't tell you why.
In my Lutheran incarnation (ALC) I actually volunteered to go door to door visiting people who had attended our church and made the mistake of identifying themselves by filling out a card with their names and addresses.

When they asked why they should go to our church rather than some other one I have to admit to being a lousy salesman because I had no real answer for them.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Ad Orientem » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:31 pm

Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:24 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:31 pm
The Cult of Christian Trumpism

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... -trumpism/

cf: Rod Dreher... https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... umpianity/
Answering a question asked in another topic. But still apropos to respond here.

Getting things like this put in front of me is another reason for me being in and valuing this forum.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by pp4me » Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:05 pm

I'm no longer a professing Christian but Merry Christmas to those on the forum who are.

I am happy to retain this feeling from my Christian experience and share it with the rest of you no matter what you might think of me ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AH_BMw5axU
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Dec 26, 2020 3:00 pm

The Authenticity of the Virgin Birth

Erick Erickson December 25 2020

F. F. Bruce is one of those scholars I have had to spend a lot of time reading in seminary. He researched and wrote some of the best material on the history of the Bible and its accuracy. In studying the ancient texts that we have, Bruce has noted that there are only around nine or 10 manuscripts of Caesar's Gallic War, which was composed between 58 and 50 B.C. The oldest manuscript we have originates from 900 years later.
Bruce writes: "The History of Thucydides (c. 460-400 BC) is known to us from eight (manuscripts), the earliest belonging to circa A.D. 900, and a few papyrus scraps, belonging to about the beginning of the Christian era. The same is true of the History of Herodotus (c. 488-428 BC). Yet no classical scholar would listen to an argument that the authenticity of Herodotus or Thucydides is in doubt because the earliest (manuscripts) of their works which are of any use to us are over 1,300 years later than the originals."
Take, as well, something like Homer's Iliad, which people passed to one other over the centuries by oration, until it was finally written down. Until the 19th century, most people presumed Troy a myth. Then, archeologists found it. The "rage of Achilles" was probably true. In the centuries before the printing press -- even before monks and script -- people preserved their histories through accurate recitation over generations. Apply this all to scripture.
Regarding the Old Testament, it is perhaps the most accurately reproduced ancient text in the entire world. Scribes took great care, because they were writing God's word. We know the accuracy of the text has been beyond reproach for at least 2,500 years. The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls confirms this.
Regarding the New Testament, we possess enough of the writings of early church leaders who wrote within about 100 years of Christ's resurrection to be able to reproduce the gospels and letters of Paul and John. There are over 20,000 handwritten manuscripts of the New Testament from the first few centuries of Christianity, written in Coptic, Greek, Latin, Syriac and other languages. There are 5,700 New Testament Greek manuscripts known to exist, and some of those were written within about 100 years of Christ's resurrection.
We do not, to our knowledge, have the original New Testament texts as actually written by Luke, Paul, John and others. But we have the copies of them from very close in time to the originals. The scribes of the New Testament -- sometimes working at a furious rate to outpace Roman soldiers -- made occasional errors. But those errors were mostly in grammar and punctuation, not errors of substance.
Bart Ehrman is one of the scholars on whom Biblical skeptics rely. Ehrman was a fundamentalist Christian but now considers himself an agnostic atheist. He studied under Bruce Metzger, who, like F. F Bruce, is noted for his scholarship on the Biblical texts. Ehrman writes that though he has textual criticism of scripture, his criticism "does not actually stand at odds with Prof. Metzger's position that the essential Christian beliefs are not affected by textual variants in the manuscript tradition of the New Testament." When an agnostic atheist like Ehrman agrees with a highly respected Christian scholar like Metzger -- who was Ehrman's professor -- that "the essential Christian beliefs are not affected by textual variants," you should pay attention.
One of those essential Christian beliefs is the virgin birth of Jesus Christ. It is as foundational a belief to the Christian faith as the resurrection. In fact, I suspect the very people who doubt the miracle of the virgin birth also doubt the resurrection. I believe both are true. We celebrate Christ's birth this Christmas season in communion with more than 2 billion other Christians globally who accept the virgin birth as true. "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace
What you revere you resemble, either for ruin or for restoration. G. K. Beale
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:09 pm

This obituary is probably the most fun I've read of a monk.
Clad in his favorite professional attire, a blue jumpsuit from J. C. Penney (“This is the kind of thing that workers in America wear,” he said) with a piece of chalk in one hand and a wineglass — sometimes the whole bottle — in the other, Father Foster immersed his pupils in the living, breathing organism, rife with splendid oratory, gripping prose and more than a few period dirty jokes, that was Latin.

“You do not need to be mentally excellent to know Latin,” he said in the Telegraph interview. “Prostitutes, beggars and pimps in Rome spoke Latin, so there must be some hope for us.”
This is exactly the kind of stupid argument I'd also make if I was shattered on wine ;D ;D ;D ;D
"You haven't, I suppose, ever mixed with politicians at close quarters. They're awful. I think some of these must have been the dregs anyhow, but I've discovered, what previously I didn't believe possible, that politicians behave in private life and say exactly the same things as they do in public. Their stupidity is inhuman.
- John Maynard Keynes
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:08 pm

Living with Grief - Bound by Sorrow, Wrapped in Comfort - pages 41/42
Kristian Kincaid 2020

Grief following death is addressed by Paul when he writes, 1 Thessalonians 4 "13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."

Atheism is hopeless. One lives and one dies. That is all there is. No God, no meaning, no more when life ceases.

Materialism is hopeless. The more we have, the more we become possessed by our possessions, and at death, all these things are placed into the hands of others.

Hedonism is hopelessness dressed up as the exciting pursuit of pleasure and self-indulgence - a dead end.

Agnosticism is hopeless uncertainty.

Egoism looks within for answers, where none are ever to be found.

Pessimism lies in saying that life is a hopeless end, when with Christ it is an endless hope.

Anything but Christ is the devil's tactic, when nothing but Christ avails us. The devil, the world, and our own sinful flesh can lead us into a hopeless darkness. Many will bite on Satan's dangling bait and flashy lures. He wants us to think we are wise, whch testifies to our foolishness. He wants us to think we are really living, when we are nothing but dead. He makes life cheap when it is a precious gift. He makes death our friend, when it is our enemy. All these "isms" and the lures of Satan's lies are dangerous, offering meaning and hope when none will ever be found. Misplaced hope is hopelessness.

.
What you revere you resemble, either for ruin or for restoration. G. K. Beale
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by pp4me » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:06 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:08 pm
Living with Grief - Bound by Sorrow, Wrapped in Comfort - pages 41/42
One of my own grieving experiences had the benefit of helping me to abandon the darkness.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:33 am

6th Petition of the Lord's Prayer - From Luther's Large Catechism

99 And lead us not into temptation.


100 We have now heard enough what toil and labor is required to retain all that for which we pray, and to persevere therein, which, however, is not achieved without infirmities and stumbling. Besides, although we have received forgiveness and a good conscience and are entirely acquitted, yet is our life of such a nature that one stands to-day and to-morrow falls. Therefore, even though we be godly now and stand before God with a good conscience, we must pray again that He would not suffer us to relapse and yield to trials and temptations.


101 Temptation, however, or (as our Saxons in olden times used to call it) Bekoerunge, is of three kinds, namely, of the flesh, of the world, and of the devil.


102 For in the flesh we dwell and carry the old Adam about our neck, who exerts himself and incites us daily to inchastity, laziness, gluttony and drunkenness, avarice and deception, to defraud our neighbor and to overcharge him, and, in short, to all manner of evil lusts which cleave to us by nature, and to which we are incited by the society, example and what we hear and see of other people, which often wound and inflame even an innocent heart.


103 Next comes the world, which offends us in word and deed, and impels us to anger, and impatience. In short, there is nothing but hatred and envy, enmity, violence and wrong, unfaithfulness, vengeance, cursing, raillery, slander, pride and haughtiness, with superfluous finery, honor, fame, and power, where no one is willing to be the least, but every one desires to sit at the head and to be seen before all.


104 Then comes the devil, inciting and provoking in all directions, but especially agitating matters that concern the conscience and spiritual affairs, namely, to induce us to despise and disregard both the Word and works of God, to tear us away from faith, hope, and love, and bring us into misbelief, false security, and obduracy, or, on the other hand, to despair, denial of God, blasphemy, and innumerable other shocking things. These are indeed snares and nets, yea, real fiery darts which are shot most venomously into the heart, not by flesh and blood, but by the devil.


105 Great and grievous, indeed, are these dangers and temptations which every Christian must bear, even though each one were alone by himself, so that every hour that we are in this vile life where we are attacked on all sides, chased and hunted down, we are moved to cry out and to pray that God would not suffer us to become weary and faint and to relapse into sin, shame, and unbelief. For otherwise it is impossible to overcome even the least temptation.


106 This, then, is leading us not into temptation, to wit, when He gives us power and strength to resist, the temptation, however, not being taken away or removed. For while we live in the flesh and have the devil about us, no one can escape temptation and allurements; and it cannot be otherwise than that we must endure trials, yea, be engulfed in them; but we pray for this, that we may not fall and be drowned in them.


107 To feel temptation is therefore a far different thing from consenting or yielding to it. We must all feel it, although not all in the same manner, but some in a greater degree and more severely than others; as, the young suffer especially from the flesh, afterwards, they that attain to middle life and old age, from the world, but others who are occupied with spiritual matters, that is, strong Christians, from the devil.


108 But such feeling, as long as it is against our will and we would rather be rid of it, can harm no one. For if we did not feel it, it could not be called a temptation. But to consent thereto is when we give it the reins and do not resist or pray against it.


109 Therefore we Christians must be armed and daily expect to be incessantly attacked, in order that no one may go on in security and heedlessly, as though the devil were far from us, but at all times expect and parry his blows. For though I am now chaste, patient, kind, and in firm faith, the devil will this very hour send such an arrow into my heart that I can scarcely stand. For he is an enemy that never desists nor becomes tired, so that when one temptation ceases, there always arise others and fresh ones.


110 Accordingly, there is no help or comfort except to run hither and to take hold of the Lord’s Prayer, and thus speak to God from the heart: Dear Father, Thou hast bidden me pray; let me not relapse because of temptations. Then you will see that they must desist, and finally acknowledge themselves conquered.


111 Else if you venture to help yourself by your own thoughts and counsel, you will only make the matter worse and give the devil more space. For he has a serpent’s head, which if it gain an opening into which he can slip, the whole body will follow without check. But prayer can prevent him and drive him back.
What you revere you resemble, either for ruin or for restoration. G. K. Beale
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by pp4me » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:20 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:33 am
6th Petition of the Lord's Prayer - From Luther's Large Catechism

99 And lead us not into temptation.


100 We have now heard enough what toil and labor is required to retain all that for which we pray, and to persevere therein, which, however, is not achieved without infirmities and stumbling. Besides, although we have received forgiveness and a good conscience and are entirely acquitted, yet is our life of such a nature that one stands to-day and to-morrow falls. Therefore, even though we be godly now and stand before God with a good conscience, we must pray again that He would not suffer us to relapse and yield to trials and temptations.


101 Temptation, however, or (as our Saxons in olden times used to call it) Bekoerunge, is of three kinds, namely, of the flesh, of the world, and of the devil.


102 For in the flesh we dwell and carry the old Adam about our neck, who exerts himself and incites us daily to inchastity, laziness, gluttony and drunkenness, avarice and deception, to defraud our neighbor and to overcharge him, and, in short, to all manner of evil lusts which cleave to us by nature, and to which we are incited by the society, example and what we hear and see of other people, which often wound and inflame even an innocent heart.


103 Next comes the world, which offends us in word and deed, and impels us to anger, and impatience. In short, there is nothing but hatred and envy, enmity, violence and wrong, unfaithfulness, vengeance, cursing, raillery, slander, pride and haughtiness, with superfluous finery, honor, fame, and power, where no one is willing to be the least, but every one desires to sit at the head and to be seen before all.


104 Then comes the devil, inciting and provoking in all directions, but especially agitating matters that concern the conscience and spiritual affairs, namely, to induce us to despise and disregard both the Word and works of God, to tear us away from faith, hope, and love, and bring us into misbelief, false security, and obduracy, or, on the other hand, to despair, denial of God, blasphemy, and innumerable other shocking things. These are indeed snares and nets, yea, real fiery darts which are shot most venomously into the heart, not by flesh and blood, but by the devil.


105 Great and grievous, indeed, are these dangers and temptations which every Christian must bear, even though each one were alone by himself, so that every hour that we are in this vile life where we are attacked on all sides, chased and hunted down, we are moved to cry out and to pray that God would not suffer us to become weary and faint and to relapse into sin, shame, and unbelief. For otherwise it is impossible to overcome even the least temptation.


106 This, then, is leading us not into temptation, to wit, when He gives us power and strength to resist, the temptation, however, not being taken away or removed. For while we live in the flesh and have the devil about us, no one can escape temptation and allurements; and it cannot be otherwise than that we must endure trials, yea, be engulfed in them; but we pray for this, that we may not fall and be drowned in them.


107 To feel temptation is therefore a far different thing from consenting or yielding to it. We must all feel it, although not all in the same manner, but some in a greater degree and more severely than others; as, the young suffer especially from the flesh, afterwards, they that attain to middle life and old age, from the world, but others who are occupied with spiritual matters, that is, strong Christians, from the devil.


108 But such feeling, as long as it is against our will and we would rather be rid of it, can harm no one. For if we did not feel it, it could not be called a temptation. But to consent thereto is when we give it the reins and do not resist or pray against it.


109 Therefore we Christians must be armed and daily expect to be incessantly attacked, in order that no one may go on in security and heedlessly, as though the devil were far from us, but at all times expect and parry his blows. For though I am now chaste, patient, kind, and in firm faith, the devil will this very hour send such an arrow into my heart that I can scarcely stand. For he is an enemy that never desists nor becomes tired, so that when one temptation ceases, there always arise others and fresh ones.


110 Accordingly, there is no help or comfort except to run hither and to take hold of the Lord’s Prayer, and thus speak to God from the heart: Dear Father, Thou hast bidden me pray; let me not relapse because of temptations. Then you will see that they must desist, and finally acknowledge themselves conquered.


111 Else if you venture to help yourself by your own thoughts and counsel, you will only make the matter worse and give the devil more space. For he has a serpent’s head, which if it gain an opening into which he can slip, the whole body will follow without check. But prayer can prevent him and drive him back.
As an ex-Christian I don't think I can even describe how much this post totally sucks to the core of my being.

I do not believe that there are supernatural entities seeking to destroy my eternal soul that I must defeat in prayer.

I thought Jesus already defeated them and "It is finished". Did Jesus do that, or did he not? Can you explain that cognitive dissonance?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:33 am

pp4me wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:20 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:33 am
6th Petition of the Lord's Prayer - From Luther's Large Catechism

99 And lead us not into temptation.


100 We have now heard enough what toil and labor is required to retain all that for which we pray, and to persevere therein, which, however, is not achieved without infirmities and stumbling. Besides, although we have received forgiveness and a good conscience and are entirely acquitted, yet is our life of such a nature that one stands to-day and to-morrow falls. Therefore, even though we be godly now and stand before God with a good conscience, we must pray again that He would not suffer us to relapse and yield to trials and temptations.


101 Temptation, however, or (as our Saxons in olden times used to call it) Bekoerunge, is of three kinds, namely, of the flesh, of the world, and of the devil.


102 For in the flesh we dwell and carry the old Adam about our neck, who exerts himself and incites us daily to inchastity, laziness, gluttony and drunkenness, avarice and deception, to defraud our neighbor and to overcharge him, and, in short, to all manner of evil lusts which cleave to us by nature, and to which we are incited by the society, example and what we hear and see of other people, which often wound and inflame even an innocent heart.


103 Next comes the world, which offends us in word and deed, and impels us to anger, and impatience. In short, there is nothing but hatred and envy, enmity, violence and wrong, unfaithfulness, vengeance, cursing, raillery, slander, pride and haughtiness, with superfluous finery, honor, fame, and power, where no one is willing to be the least, but every one desires to sit at the head and to be seen before all.


104 Then comes the devil, inciting and provoking in all directions, but especially agitating matters that concern the conscience and spiritual affairs, namely, to induce us to despise and disregard both the Word and works of God, to tear us away from faith, hope, and love, and bring us into misbelief, false security, and obduracy, or, on the other hand, to despair, denial of God, blasphemy, and innumerable other shocking things. These are indeed snares and nets, yea, real fiery darts which are shot most venomously into the heart, not by flesh and blood, but by the devil.


105 Great and grievous, indeed, are these dangers and temptations which every Christian must bear, even though each one were alone by himself, so that every hour that we are in this vile life where we are attacked on all sides, chased and hunted down, we are moved to cry out and to pray that God would not suffer us to become weary and faint and to relapse into sin, shame, and unbelief. For otherwise it is impossible to overcome even the least temptation.


106 This, then, is leading us not into temptation, to wit, when He gives us power and strength to resist, the temptation, however, not being taken away or removed. For while we live in the flesh and have the devil about us, no one can escape temptation and allurements; and it cannot be otherwise than that we must endure trials, yea, be engulfed in them; but we pray for this, that we may not fall and be drowned in them.


107 To feel temptation is therefore a far different thing from consenting or yielding to it. We must all feel it, although not all in the same manner, but some in a greater degree and more severely than others; as, the young suffer especially from the flesh, afterwards, they that attain to middle life and old age, from the world, but others who are occupied with spiritual matters, that is, strong Christians, from the devil.


108 But such feeling, as long as it is against our will and we would rather be rid of it, can harm no one. For if we did not feel it, it could not be called a temptation. But to consent thereto is when we give it the reins and do not resist or pray against it.


109 Therefore we Christians must be armed and daily expect to be incessantly attacked, in order that no one may go on in security and heedlessly, as though the devil were far from us, but at all times expect and parry his blows. For though I am now chaste, patient, kind, and in firm faith, the devil will this very hour send such an arrow into my heart that I can scarcely stand. For he is an enemy that never desists nor becomes tired, so that when one temptation ceases, there always arise others and fresh ones.


110 Accordingly, there is no help or comfort except to run hither and to take hold of the Lord’s Prayer, and thus speak to God from the heart: Dear Father, Thou hast bidden me pray; let me not relapse because of temptations. Then you will see that they must desist, and finally acknowledge themselves conquered.


111 Else if you venture to help yourself by your own thoughts and counsel, you will only make the matter worse and give the devil more space. For he has a serpent’s head, which if it gain an opening into which he can slip, the whole body will follow without check. But prayer can prevent him and drive him back.
As an ex-Christian I don't think I can even describe how much this post totally sucks to the core of my being.

I do not believe that there are supernatural entities seeking to destroy my eternal soul that I must defeat in prayer.

I thought Jesus already defeated them and "It is finished". Did Jesus do that, or did he not? Can you explain that cognitive dissonance?
If you are an ex-Christian and do not believe there is a cosmic battle going on between supernatural entities to win your eternal soul, and perhaps that temptation by the devil is not real, why did this post bother you, why would it even matter? Perhaps you could offer what you do believe. Thanks for any light you care to share. In the mean time, I can offer what I believe, expressed in the words of the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds shown below, and the much longer Athanasian Creed which is linked below:

Apostles’ Creed:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,

And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God
the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Christian Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

The Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Athanasian Creed:

https://lambofgodlcms.org/wp-content/up ... -CREED.pdf


.
What you revere you resemble, either for ruin or for restoration. G. K. Beale
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by pp4me » Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:15 pm

I guess it bothers me Mountaineer because it reminds me of so many wasted years of my life.

I do believe that prayer has much of the same benefit to offer as meditation by disciplining the mind so all was not lost. Imagining that it is part of a supernatural battle between good and evil is also probably harmless and might have some psychological benefit.

I don't think the cognitive dissonance I pointed out is a healthy state of mind, however. Jesus won the battle but we still have to fight it. That doesn't make sense to me like so many things in the Christian religion. I could list many but I won't.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:15 pm

pp4me wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:15 pm
I guess it bothers me Mountaineer because it reminds me of so many wasted years of my life.

I do believe that prayer has much of the same benefit to offer as meditation by disciplining the mind so all was not lost. Imagining that it is part of a supernatural battle between good and evil is also probably harmless and might have some psychological benefit.

I don't think the cognitive dissonance I pointed out is a healthy state of mind, however. Jesus won the battle but we still have to fight it. That doesn't make sense to me like so many things in the Christian religion. I could list many but I won't.
pp4me,

Thank you for responding. Perhaps this might help explain what you perceive as cognative dissonance. It is a rather long podcast, almost two hours, but in my opinion worthwhile. In any event, best wishes for you on your journey. For what it's worth, my journey has not been one continuous smooth sail either. Just out of curiousity, what denomination were you in when you confessed being a Christian? - only if you care to share. Blessings. ... Mountaineer

https://issuesetc.org/2021/01/21/0211-i ... r-1-21-21/
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:57 am

I could have posted this in one of the Covid-19 threads, but I thought it was a better fit for this one. One stance has an extremely negative eternal consequence, the other a potentially mild to extremely negative temporal consequence.

So, a vaccine to confer immortality is offered. People who want it take the vaccine.
Some people don’t trust or want the vaccine.
The people who take the vaccine are immortal.
The people who didn’t take the vaccine eventually die.

I took the Covid vaccine.
I can go anywhere and do anything with little fear of getting a virus that is 98% survivable without a vaccine.

People can take the vaccine or not.
I’m not going to infect them with my health.
If they want to be healthy, they can get the vaccine.

A vaccine passport will only create another reason to slow the recovery, sell masks, and invent a new level of government interference.

Peter (Masked out of courtesy) Garrison
What you revere you resemble, either for ruin or for restoration. G. K. Beale
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pp4me
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by pp4me » Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:16 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:57 am
So, a vaccine to confer immortality is offered. People who want it take the vaccine.
Some people don’t trust or want the vaccine.
The people who take the vaccine are immortal.
The people who didn’t take the vaccine eventually die.


I wouldn't trust a vaccine claiming to confer immortality.

Sounds like somebody working hard to stretch a metaphor.
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Xan
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:11 pm

Interesting interview on the media coverage of Prince Phillip's faith.
https://issuesetc.org/2021/04/14/1041-m ... y-4-14-21/

I knew he converted from Greek Orthodoxy to Anglicanism in order to marry the Queen. Things I didn't know:
* Even after that, he made many visits during his life to some island that's the holiest place in Orthodoxy, it's nothing but monasteries. Theory is that he was seeing some particular monk who helped him "go straight".
* Prince Charles has also visited this island.
* Prince Phillip would often have theological discussions with Anglican priests about their sermons.
* Prince Phillip's mother became an Orthodox nun after her husband died. There are royal family pictures from this era with a seemingly out-of-place nun who is his mother.
* His mother was honored as "righteous among the nations" in Israel, and Phillip went to the ceremony even though official travel to Israel was suspended because British governors kept getting assassinated. She had assisted Jews during the war at great personal risk, especially because she was part of Greek royalty.
* His mother's aunt is a canonized saint in the Orthodox church, having been murdered along with the Tsar and his family by the Bolsheviks. She and others were thrown in a well, with hand grenades tossed in afterwards. Apparently that didn't quite finish them off, as the singing of hymns could be heard afterward.
* Phillip's mother and great aunt are buried together in Jerusalem.
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