Figuring Out Religion

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Cortopassi
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:44 pm

So you are saying we pragmatically have organized ourselves into societies that have determined what is right and what is wrong and those beliefs may no necessarily jive with God's right and wrong? If he made us in his image, I would think that what we've organized ourselves into is a pretty decent representation, which in my view is improving for the most part as time goes on. In many areas of the world. Not all.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:17 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:44 pm
So you are saying we pragmatically have organized ourselves into societies that have determined what is right and what is wrong and those beliefs may no necessarily jive with God's right and wrong? If he made us in his image, I would think that what we've organized ourselves into is a pretty decent representation, which in my view is improving for the most part as time goes on. In many areas of the world. Not all.
If I remember my Western Civilization history somewhat accurately, that is what a whole lot of people thought just prior to WWI ... mankind progressing due to the enlightenment, industrial revolution, industrial agriculture, modern art, never be another like the American Civil War, telephone, radio, Nietzsche's God is dead, etc. WWI put a huge "woops, maybe we were wrong about that" into the milieu.
Romans 8:31b If God is for us, who can be against us? ... 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Xan
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:53 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:44 pm
So you are saying we pragmatically have organized ourselves into societies that have determined what is right and what is wrong and those beliefs may no necessarily jive with God's right and wrong? If he made us in his image, I would think that what we've organized ourselves into is a pretty decent representation, which in my view is improving for the most part as time goes on. In many areas of the world. Not all.
Erm, maybe. I think you're right that much knowledge of the Law is innate. But again, my point is bigger than that. If there isn't God, then there is no right or wrong anyway. What one might call "right" and "wrong" are merely conventions.

Suppose I'm doing something you believe to be wrong. You can't tell me what I'm doing is wrong without appealing to some authority. My "life experience" tells me what I'm doing is right, and yours tells you it's wrong. So, what is the authority that you appeal to in your worldview?
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Cortopassi
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:38 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:53 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:44 pm
So you are saying we pragmatically have organized ourselves into societies that have determined what is right and what is wrong and those beliefs may no necessarily jive with God's right and wrong? If he made us in his image, I would think that what we've organized ourselves into is a pretty decent representation, which in my view is improving for the most part as time goes on. In many areas of the world. Not all.
Erm, maybe. I think you're right that much knowledge of the Law is innate. But again, my point is bigger than that. If there isn't God, then there is no right or wrong anyway. What one might call "right" and "wrong" are merely conventions.

Suppose I'm doing something you believe to be wrong. You can't tell me what I'm doing is wrong without appealing to some authority. My "life experience" tells me what I'm doing is right, and yours tells you it's wrong. So, what is the authority that you appeal to in your worldview?
The authority would be my manager, or the police, or the government, or the tribal leader, etc. If we were Neanderthals just fending for ourselves/clan, I suppose it could be a problem. But eventually enough people get together and form some basic consensus, like not cool to rape women in the clan.

At some point someone assigned God as the source to some of these ways of doing the right thing.

But of course, there is still not consensus. Seems it is still ok to kill gay people in areas of the middle east, and kill women for adultery. And that is in the name of how they view God. But I am going down a rabbit hole.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by pugchief » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:15 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:53 pm
If there isn't God, then there is no right or wrong anyway.
I don't understand that statement. The 'Golden Rule' is a good place to start. My kids, like Corto's, were raised in a non-religious setting, but clearly know the difference between right and wrong and are very moral individuals.
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:18 am
I am not an atheist. I am agnostic I think...
I used to say that exact thing. Until a buddy convinced me that the definition of an agnostic was an atheist with no cajones.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by l82start » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:16 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:53 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:44 pm
So you are saying we pragmatically have organized ourselves into societies that have determined what is right and what is wrong and those beliefs may no necessarily jive with God's right and wrong? If he made us in his image, I would think that what we've organized ourselves into is a pretty decent representation, which in my view is improving for the most part as time goes on. In many areas of the world. Not all.
Erm, maybe. I think you're right that much knowledge of the Law is innate. But again, my point is bigger than that. If there isn't God, then there is no right or wrong anyway. What one might call "right" and "wrong" are merely conventions.

Suppose I'm doing something you believe to be wrong. You can't tell me what I'm doing is wrong without appealing to some authority. My "life experience" tells me what I'm doing is right, and yours tells you it's wrong. So, what is the authority that you appeal to in your worldview?
how about harmony? it requires no god to see the difference between being in harmony with the world you live in (and the other people in it) and not in harmony, in harmony being "right" and out of harmony being "wrong" i think there is a very natural, organic and survival based understanding for a right and wrong based on harmony, and it ends up being (no surprise really) very much overlapped with what a believer would say is right and wrong from religious teachings.
"The future ain't what it used to be."

Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:09 am

pugchief wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:15 pm
Xan wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:53 pm
If there isn't God, then there is no right or wrong anyway.
I don't understand that statement. The 'Golden Rule' is a good place to start. My kids, like Corto's, were raised in a non-religious setting, but clearly know the difference between right and wrong and are very moral individuals.
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:18 am
I am not an atheist. I am agnostic I think...
I used to say that exact thing. Until a buddy convinced me that the definition of an agnostic was an atheist with no cajones.
What I'm saying is that either there is some kind of supernatural, or there is nihilism. If there is nihilism, then there is no right and wrong. Your kids have their own idea of right and wrong which you agree with, but suppose they had a different one? Nothing really matters anyway, in the nihilistic scenario. That's what I'm saying.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by pugchief » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:26 am

Xan wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:09 am
pugchief wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:15 pm
Xan wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:53 pm
If there isn't God, then there is no right or wrong anyway.
I don't understand that statement. The 'Golden Rule' is a good place to start. My kids, like Corto's, were raised in a non-religious setting, but clearly know the difference between right and wrong and are very moral individuals.
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:18 am
I am not an atheist. I am agnostic I think...
I used to say that exact thing. Until a buddy convinced me that the definition of an agnostic was an atheist with no cajones.
What I'm saying is that either there is some kind of supernatural, or there is nihilism. If there is nihilism, then there is no right and wrong. Your kids have their own idea of right and wrong which you agree with, but suppose they had a different one? Nothing really matters anyway, in the nihilistic scenario. That's what I'm saying.
I disagree. Just because you don't believe in organized religion, or any God for that matter, does not mean there is no meaning or purpose to life. Meaning and purpose is what you make of it.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:44 am

pugchief wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:26 am
I disagree. Just because you don't believe in organized religion, or any God for that matter, does not mean there is no meaning or purpose to life. Meaning and purpose is what you make of it.
Well, a couple of things on "Meaning and purpose is what you make of it":

1) This is a religious truth claim you have made. Do you have anything to back that up?

2) If what you say is true, then you are agreeing with my point: there is no absolute right or wrong without God. If meaning and purpose are what you make of it, then there can be "my right" and "your right" and there's no way to tell which is "more right", because that concept doesn't exist. It's just what we make of it!


EDIT: At this point I'm not even arguing for the existence of God. Just trying to get an honest discussion about the nature of right and wrong. The belief in absolute right and wrong is inconsistent with atheism. That doesn't (by itself, necessarily) mean that atheism is not the correct worldview! Just that you can't have both atheism and absolute right and wrong.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:10 pm

Xan wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:44 am
pugchief wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:26 am
I disagree. Just because you don't believe in organized religion, or any God for that matter, does not mean there is no meaning or purpose to life. Meaning and purpose is what you make of it.
Well, a couple of things on "Meaning and purpose is what you make of it":

1) This is a religious truth claim you have made. Do you have anything to back that up?

2) If what you say is true, then you are agreeing with my point: there is no absolute right or wrong without God. If meaning and purpose are what you make of it, then there can be "my right" and "your right" and there's no way to tell which is "more right", because that concept doesn't exist. It's just what we make of it!


EDIT: At this point I'm not even arguing for the existence of God. Just trying to get an honest discussion about the nature of right and wrong. The belief in absolute right and wrong is inconsistent with atheism. That doesn't (by itself, necessarily) mean that atheism is not the correct worldview! Just that you can't have both atheism and absolute right and wrong.
My very, very simplistic view: Right and wrong are determinded by how far you are located from the peak of that thing. If the thing is a mountain, it is easy to determine where you are. If the thing is an iceburg, not so much as it is subject to the winds and currents of an ever moving ocean. If the thing is my own inner reference point, Lord have mercy upon us.
Romans 8:31b If God is for us, who can be against us? ... 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Cortopassi
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:29 pm

Xan wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:44 am
Just trying to get an honest discussion about the nature of right and wrong. The belief in absolute right and wrong is inconsistent with atheism. That doesn't (by itself, necessarily) mean that atheism is not the correct worldview! Just that you can't have both atheism and absolute right and wrong.
There is no absolute right and wrong. How I just convinced myself was thinking about the "peak" statement by mountaineer, but maybe in a different way.

I used to step on ants and squash lightning bugs when I was a kid, just for fun. Now I purposely go out of my way to not kill most bugs, unless it is a spider and my wife needs me to. I don't think twice, usually, that I just killed a living thing, simply because of the scale difference between me and the bug.

As you get to bigger bugs, it's much harder, because they squish/crunch, and you can feel them.

I recall having a BB gun as a kid. Shot a rabbit. But only wounded it, still bleeding. Needed to get my Dad to finish the job. Harder still to take a small animal life.

Can't imagine killing a dog, cow, horse, etc. or a human for that matter.

But back to scale, if you recall Men in Black, how we are all in a universe inside a pendant on some alien. What would it take for that alien to crush the universe and not care? Nothing. not wrong in their view, no big deal. That alien is in effect God.

Does that make me an atheist?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:03 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:29 pm
Xan wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:44 am
Just trying to get an honest discussion about the nature of right and wrong. The belief in absolute right and wrong is inconsistent with atheism. That doesn't (by itself, necessarily) mean that atheism is not the correct worldview! Just that you can't have both atheism and absolute right and wrong.
There is no absolute right and wrong. How I just convinced myself was thinking about the "peak" statement by mountaineer, but maybe in a different way.

I used to step on ants and squash lightning bugs when I was a kid, just for fun. Now I purposely go out of my way to not kill most bugs, unless it is a spider and my wife needs me to. I don't think twice, usually, that I just killed a living thing, simply because of the scale difference between me and the bug.

As you get to bigger bugs, it's much harder, because they squish/crunch, and you can feel them.

I recall having a BB gun as a kid. Shot a rabbit. But only wounded it, still bleeding. Needed to get my Dad to finish the job. Harder still to take a small animal life.

Can't imagine killing a dog, cow, horse, etc. or a human for that matter.

But back to scale, if you recall Men in Black, how we are all in a universe inside a pendant on some alien. What would it take for that alien to crush the universe and not care? Nothing. not wrong in their view, no big deal. That alien is in effect God.

Does that make me an atheist?
Cortopassi, why do you want to know?
Romans 8:31b If God is for us, who can be against us? ... 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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