Figuring Out Religion

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

jacksonM
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:31 pm

How to create a human being. Just repeat this process over the course of several million years.....

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=pl ... &FORM=VIRE

As the apostle Paul said, "run the race to win". Future generations are depending on you!
Last edited by jacksonM on Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jacksonM
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:38 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:18 pm
Jesus said that only the sick need a physician. If you're not sick, you don't need Him. Very simple.
It's not that I'm not sick in many ways as this seems to be the human condition but I have grown very distrustful of doctors.
jacksonM
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:20 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:50 pm
Xan wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:46 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:42 pm


No, I would not say that.

How about you?
Definitely I would not. But I'm not denying that I'm intrinsically self-centered and in need of repentance.
I didn't deny that I was intrinsically self-centered. This is common to every creature on planet earth.

I said I didn't think this made me intrinsically evil.

(And BTW, I was so drunk I have no recollection of making the post where I said that though I do remember listening to the song I linked to. As to what the song has to do with the topic I'll have to think about it.)
Okay I think I figured out why I posted that link after listening to it about 25 times over and over again.

My first wife died of cancer. She was a believer but often times she made me feel like she was Job's wife. When things got bad she would castigate me for my faith, asking why I continued to believe. Nevertheless, she stuck with me for 27 years.

So now that she's gone I've come to see her point.

So join me in singing along with my wonderful song of liberation....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs8i0pzDxYw
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2165
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:12 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:15 pm
Thanks, Xan, I appreciate the thought out responses.

Touching on a couple things from my experience, many times growing up I would sit through the part of the mass where the lines about eat of my body and drink of my blood come up wondering what an alien deposited on earth into a mass would think of that....

On the spreading of the gospel, seems with Youtube and videos that now would be a really ideal time in human history to get the word out immediately. But you can imagine the response. Nutjob, crazy, etc. I wonder what Jesus would have to do in modern times to get people to follow him and not think he was a kook.

Most importantly "This is all about something much deeper and more important, like what our situation is as human beings, how should we treat each other, is there such a thing as objective right and wrong," I agree 100%. I just did not need religion (personally) to understand this and teach my children this. My mother thought/thinks it was impossible to achieve without religion, but her grandkids prove that wrong.

Once each of us pass away we'll find out one way or another!

Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas to you as well Corto, and thanks for the thoughtful discussion.

If you don't want to get further I totally understand. But I'm curious where, from what I assume is an atheist worldview, you get objective right and wrong.
jacksonM
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:55 pm

Xan wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:12 pm
But I'm curious where, from what I assume is an atheist worldview, you get objective right and wrong.
I don't call myself an atheist because if I do a Christian like yourself will automatically think that means I am "a fool who has said in his heart, there is no god" - instead of letting me speak for myself.
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3730
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:36 am

jacksonM wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:20 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:50 pm
Xan wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:46 pm


Definitely I would not. But I'm not denying that I'm intrinsically self-centered and in need of repentance.
I didn't deny that I was intrinsically self-centered. This is common to every creature on planet earth.

I said I didn't think this made me intrinsically evil.

(And BTW, I was so drunk I have no recollection of making the post where I said that though I do remember listening to the song I linked to. As to what the song has to do with the topic I'll have to think about it.)
Okay I think I figured out why I posted that link after listening to it about 25 times over and over again.

My first wife died of cancer. She was a believer but often times she made me feel like she was Job's wife. When things got bad she would castigate me for my faith, asking why I continued to believe. Nevertheless, she stuck with me for 27 years.

So now that she's gone I've come to see her point.

So join me in singing along with my wonderful song of liberation....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs8i0pzDxYw
jacksonM,

I am sorry for your loss.
The world removes God; the Word gives Christ.
The devil accuses us; the Word sustains faith.
Sin says live for self; the Word says live for others.

The right-hand statement gives fortification against the unholy trinity of the left-hand statement.
User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:18 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:12 pm
I'm curious where, from what I assume is an atheist worldview, you get objective right and wrong.
My parents, and family I assume. The women in my family generally were very religious, some going to mass every day. The men were mostly not held to that standard. My Dad goes now (86), but for the majority of his adult life went only on Christmas and Easter.

I find it hard to believe that going to church for 1 hour a week, hearing the same scripted mass every time except for a different homily made me understand right from wrong. I went through all the sacraments, and got my little black Catholic book in 2nd grade for communion and distinctly remember the fear put into me by the pages that covered what were venial and mortal sins. A very negative experience.

I am not an atheist. I am agnostic I think...

Is it possible that simple life experiences shaped what I think is right and wrong? That's where I'd think I got most of my information. Easy enough, for me, to have experienced a kid being bullied at school and to determine that was wrong, vs. joining in the taunting. Not saying I was perfect in that, but over time realized it was wrong.

It's possible the Catholic scare tactics of going to hell for pretty much anything shaped me, but that certainly did not shape MY kids, and they are better people than I ever was.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2165
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:04 am

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing, Corto. I'm asking what your source of objective morality in fact is, not how you learned what you currently believe to be right and wrong.

What is the foundation of your belief of what's right and wrong? What is the source of your objective morality? Not: "how did you learn right from wrong". It certainly is possible (almost certain, even) that life experiences shaped what you /think/ is right and wrong, but that's a far cry from objective morality. Everybody might think different things are right and wrong.
User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:44 am

Xan wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:04 am
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing, Corto. I'm asking what your source of objective morality in fact is, not how you learned what you currently believe to be right and wrong.

What is the foundation of your belief of what's right and wrong? What is the source of your objective morality? Not: "how did you learn right from wrong". It certainly is possible (almost certain, even) that life experiences shaped what you /think/ is right and wrong, but that's a far cry from objective morality. Everybody might think different things are right and wrong.
I'm not sure I would have a clear answer to that? I'm not even sure that I understand what objective morality is? You mean an absolute morality that all humans would agree on? Isn't all morality subjective? If you can help me understand, then I can answer.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2165
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:04 am

Well, you said, quoting me:
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:15 pm
Most importantly "This is all about something much deeper and more important, like what our situation is as human beings, how should we treat each other, is there such a thing as objective right and wrong," I agree 100%. I just did not need religion (personally) to understand this and teach my children this. My mother thought/thinks it was impossible to achieve without religion, but her grandkids prove that wrong.
To me this sounded like you agreed there was such a thing as objective right and wrong, and that it's possible to learn it without religion. Maybe I misunderstood? Now you seem to be arguing that there is not objective right and wrong.
User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:13 pm

I agree that right and wrong can be learned without religion.

Is there an absolute, objective right and wrong? That's much harder, right?

Is the death penalty a good example? Death penalty is I assume against commandments. So anyone following the bible is 100% against the death penalty? For someone, say, like Hitler?
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2165
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:26 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:13 pm
I agree that right and wrong can be learned without religion.

Is there an absolute, objective right and wrong? That's much harder, right?

Is the death penalty a good example? Death penalty is I assume against commandments. So anyone following the bible is 100% against the death penalty? For someone, say, like Hitler?
The KJV translated the fifth commandment as "thou shalt not kill", but other translations pretty uniformly go with "murder" rather than "kill". "Kill" is clearly too broad: it would seem to forbid swatting a mosquito. Murder is unlawful killing, as opposed to things like eating meat, the death penalty, being a soldier in war, etc.

As far as the death penalty specifically, Paul says in Romans "But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he [the governing authority] does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer."

I guess what I'm really aiming for here is a broader point: if there's no God then there is no actual right and wrong. There is no NEED to learn right from wrong if there is no God, other than pragmatism.
Post Reply