Figuring Out Religion

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3689
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:58 pm

A blessed Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day for all who died, and for all who then sacrificed to assure we have the freedom we now enjoy. 77 years ago, WOW how time flies!
Romans 8:31b If God is for us, who can be against us? ... 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
jacksonM
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:42 pm

Are you an intrinsically evil person?

The Bible says you are, so you need to repent.

I don't believe this any more.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=i+ ... ORM=VRDGAR
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2043
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:04 pm

Would you say that you love God with all your heart, mind, and soul; and that you love your neighbor as yourself? Always?
jacksonM
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:42 pm

Xan wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:04 pm
Would you say that you love God with all your heart, mind, and soul; and that you love your neighbor as yourself? Always?
No, I would not say that.

How about you?
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2043
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:46 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:42 pm
Xan wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:04 pm
Would you say that you love God with all your heart, mind, and soul; and that you love your neighbor as yourself? Always?
No, I would not say that.

How about you?
Definitely I would not. I'm intrinsically self-centered and need to repent, as I believe we all are and do.
jacksonM
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:59 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:50 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:46 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:42 pm
Xan wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:04 pm
Would you say that you love God with all your heart, mind, and soul; and that you love your neighbor as yourself? Always?
No, I would not say that.

How about you?
Definitely I would not. But I'm not denying that I'm intrinsically self-centered and in need of repentance.
I didn't deny that I was intrinsically self-centered. This is common to every creature on planet earth.

I said I didn't think this made me intrinsically evil.

(And BTW, I was so drunk I have no recollection of making the post where I said that though I do remember listening to the song I linked to. As to what the song has to do with the topic I'll have to think about it.)
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2954
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Ad Orientem » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:05 pm

But I say to you,' the Lord says, 'love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, pray for those who persecute you.' Why did he command these things? So that he might free you from hatred, sadness, anger and grudges, and might grant you the greatest possession of all, perfect love, which is impossible to possess except by the one who loves all equally in imitation of God. -St. Maximus the Confessor
stuper1
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 670
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:18 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by stuper1 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:18 pm

Jesus said that only the sick need a physician. If you're not sick, you don't need Him. Very simple.
InsuranceGuy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:44 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by InsuranceGuy » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:49 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:18 pm
Jesus said that only the sick need a physician. If you're not sick, you don't need Him. Very simple.
At the beginning of His ministry, Jesus explained that He was sent “to heal the brokenhearted” (Luke 4:18). The Bible often tells us of His healing people “of their infirmities” (Luke 5:15; 7:21). The Gospel of Matthew explains that Jesus healed the people “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses” (Matthew 8:17).

Because of His atoning experience in mortality, our Savior is able to comfort, heal, and strengthen all men and women everywhere, but I believe He does so only for those who seek Him and ask for His help. The Apostle James taught, “Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up” (James 4:10). We qualify for that blessing when we believe in Him and pray for His help.

Our Savior’s Atonement does more than assure us of immortality by a universal resurrection and give us the opportunity to be cleansed from sin by repentance and baptism. His Atonement also provides the opportunity to call upon Him who has experienced all of our mortal infirmities to give us the strength to bear the burdens of mortality. He knows of our anguish, and He is there for us. Like the good Samaritan, when He finds us wounded at the wayside, He will bind up our wounds and care for us (see Luke 10:34). The healing and strengthening power of Jesus Christ and His Atonement is for all of us who will ask.
User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1279
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:23 pm

Serious questions from a non-religious person (me).

--Was there something about the time period 2000 years ago that God felt he needed his son down here? Vs. some other time period?

--What about Jesus gets him the son of God title? Couldn't he just have been some charismatic guy who was good with getting people to follow him, with maybe some exaggeration along the way?

--Is religion instinctual? If someone was raised without religion, nowadays, where virtually every natural phenomena is explainable, would religion wither away over time (I think it is to some extent based off data, right?)

--Why haven't we had a repeat visit? Related to the first question. Haven't there been enough dark periods since 2000 years ago that should have warranted another visit? What would cause another visit?

--When bad things happen (illness, war, etc) the response from religious people will vary from "It's God's will" to something along the lines of humans are bad people and we have free will. Which is it? Why is my aunt dying at 48 God's will, but Hitler killing 6 million Jews under human control?

--How do well educated people such as scientists, doctors and engineers who are 100% driven by real world experiences and data in their daily lives so easily have faith in something they've never seen?

I ask these with no malice, cynicism or sarcasm.

Image
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2043
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:38 pm

I hope I can represent the answers correctly and faithfully!
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:23 pm
Serious questions from a non-religious person (me).

--Was there something about the time period 2000 years ago that God felt he needed his son down here? Vs. some other time period?
I don't think it's any particular event or situation that caused that particular time and place to be chosen. It was the time and place that were the right time and place. From a purely human standpoint, I would say that the Roman Empire was the ideal way to spread the new Gospel far and wide. From the standpoint of faith, we trust that all things work for the good of the elect, and that the right time and place were chosen.
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:23 pm
--What about Jesus gets him the son of God title? Couldn't he just have been some charismatic guy who was good with getting people to follow him, with maybe some exaggeration along the way?
Are you wondering why Christians consider him to be the Son of God? Well, he was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and twice (I think just twice) the voice of God the Father declared him to be "His beloved Son": at his Baptism and his Transfiguration. Also he said things like "Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father". Or, "Before Abraham was, I am".

Or are you asking why, today, we don't consider the Bible to be exaggerated stories of a charismatic person good with getting people to follow him?

I won't tell you that's impossible. Maybe you're right. But Jesus wasn't all that good at getting people to follow him. He got SOME people to follow him, but he wasn't cruising around, picking up all the support he could. For example, he fed the 5,000, which caused the huge crowd to follow him around, but they were only loyal because their bellies were full and they wanted to keep it that way. That's when he told them that they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood or they had no life in them. When they balked at this, instead of telling them that he meant that spiritually (as he had about Baptism with Nicodemus earlier in John), he doubles down and says that they have to grind his flesh between their teeth. (That's my understanding of the sense of the verb there, anyway.) And most of them leave him.
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:23 pm
--Is religion instinctual? If someone was raised without religion, nowadays, where virtually every natural phenomena is explainable, would religion wither away over time (I think it is to some extent based off data, right?)
Maybe it's instinctual, but I wouldn't say that means it's false. Radios have antennas, because they're built to receive transmissions. That doesn't mean nobody is transmitting, in fact, it would make it seem likely that there IS a transmission.

I don't think the primary purpose of religion is to explain natural phenomena, and certainly that isn't the purpose of true religion. This is all about something much deeper and more important, like what our situation is as human beings, how should we treat each other, is there such a thing as objective right and wrong, and what is its source, why is there something rather than nothing, things like that.
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:23 pm
--Why haven't we had a repeat visit? Related to the first question. Haven't there been enough dark periods since 2000 years ago that should have warranted another visit? What would cause another visit?
Touched on this earlier. It wasn't "bad stuff" that caused Jesus to come the first time. He'd been prophesied to come since Genesis 3, when God said that the seed of the woman would crush the serpent's head. He came, took our sins upon himself, and received our punishment in our place, so that we may come into the presence of God. That doesn't need to happen again. When he comes again, it will be the end of the world and the establishment of the new heaven and new earth.
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:23 pm
--When bad things happen (illness, war, etc) the response from religious people will vary from "It's God's will" to something along the lines of humans are bad people and we have free will. Which is it? Why is my aunt dying at 48 God's will, but Hitler killing 6 million Jews under human control?
Luther differentiated God's hidden will from his revealed will. His hidden will is beyond our understanding, and something that it is best for us not to know (or he would have told us). His revealed will is described in Scripture. He doesn't promise that nothing bad will ever happen, in fact he describes that things will be worse for his followers than for everyone else!

"Why do bad things happen to good people" and "Why are some saved and not others" are questions that I admit I would very much like to know the answer to. But it's none of my business: I need to stick with what God HAS told me, not what he hasn't.

I will say that all bad things that happen in this world, including and especially death, are a result of sin. Man's rebellion against God. Massive disasters are a reminder that this world is temporal and will end.
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:23 pm
--How do well educated people such as scientists, doctors and engineers who are 100% driven by real world experiences and data in their daily lives so easily have faith in something they've never seen?
I can't speak for anybody other than myself, but I'm broadly in the category you describe. All of us, every one, has faith in something we haven't seen constantly. Do you only drive over bridges which you have personally overseen from the design through construction phases? Do you get in elevators without checking the cables? Do you examine the maintenance log before you board an airplane? No. You have faith that somebody else is taking care of those things.

I would say that being surrounded by facts and data all the time makes me believe even more strongly that that isn't all there is to life. Would you say that the process of raising a family can be done entirely through facts and data? Are facts and data all that are involved in sitting around a poker table with friends?

Christianity is the religion based on the ultimate fact: the resurrection of Jesus. If that didn't happen, then maybe life IS just facts and data, and I'm actually the God of my life. What a scary thought!
User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1279
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:15 pm

Thanks, Xan, I appreciate the thought out responses.

Touching on a couple things from my experience, many times growing up I would sit through the part of the mass where the lines about eat of my body and drink of my blood come up wondering what an alien deposited on earth into a mass would think of that....

On the spreading of the gospel, seems with Youtube and videos that now would be a really ideal time in human history to get the word out immediately. But you can imagine the response. Nutjob, crazy, etc. I wonder what Jesus would have to do in modern times to get people to follow him and not think he was a kook.

Most importantly "This is all about something much deeper and more important, like what our situation is as human beings, how should we treat each other, is there such a thing as objective right and wrong," I agree 100%. I just did not need religion (personally) to understand this and teach my children this. My mother thought/thinks it was impossible to achieve without religion, but her grandkids prove that wrong.

Once each of us pass away we'll find out one way or another!

Merry Christmas!
Post Reply