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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:14 am
by Mountaineer
Fred wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Some thoughts on prayer, to go along with the Lord's Prayer - note the emphasis on "thy will be done" (not my will) in the Lord's Prayer - i.e. God is in charge, not me (ref: Mt 6:5-13):
Don't see how you square your thinking about prayer with Jesus teaching on the subject. I'm thinking of the Canaanite lady who kept pestering Him to heal her daughter, I think it was, and he said he wasn't sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel so don't basically don't bother me lady. She kept pestering until he granted her request and then he said he hadn't found such faith in Israel (I could be confusing several Bible stories). There were several stories in the Gospels like that. The impression I got from those stories was that if God says no, keep trying, because you can change his mind and if you do he'll even commend you for it. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense but that's the way it seemed to me. If you keep saying, "If it be thy will" my impression was that he'd think you were a faithless wimp for quitting so easily.

That's just my impression and as I've said before I mostly just read the Bible when I was a Christian and didn't pay a lot of attention to what others had to say about it. So I'm probably wrong about a lot of the impressions I got. (Some sarcasm intended).
Fred, Jesus was the person who told his disciples how to pray when they asked - Jesus is the one who said the Lord's Prayer; how can this prayer, a model or general pattern for prayer, not be a very important Jesus theological teaching about faith? 

Re. the Canaanite woman, my perception is the account is more about faith and believing that Jesus would grant her request (Gospel) than an emphasis on doing (Law).  It is in contrast to the accounts of Jesus repeatedly chiding His disciples for their lack of faith (Mt 8:26; 14:31; 17:20), another very important Jesus teaching.

Note from my study Bible:  MATTHEW—NOTE ON 15:21–28 This persistent Canaanite woman gains Jesus’ praise for believing that He will help her sick daughter. In time of need, we often either fail to pray with such determination or only ask hesitantly. Instead, we ought to “pray without ceasing” (1Th 5:17). Jesus hears all prayers offered in His name, and He will answer in His own time and way as is best for us. Therefore, we can pray with confidence.

Concordia Publishing House (2009-10-31). The Lutheran Study Bible (Kindle Locations 112206-112209). Concordia Publishing House. Kindle Edition.

... M

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:26 am
by Mark Leavy
Rio Jesus and Me

I’m staying at an AirBnB and the hostess has a plethora of gods sprinkled around to choose from.

[img width=600]http://i60.tinypic.com/mv20ed.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i61.tinypic.com/10rkfw4.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i60.tinypic.com/2iixumc.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i58.tinypic.com/143nsk3.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i58.tinypic.com/aes0vs.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i60.tinypic.com/jkemhk.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i57.tinypic.com/5xscis.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i60.tinypic.com/hv8bxg.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i57.tinypic.com/34y3a4p.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i60.tinypic.com/2djyl44.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i62.tinypic.com/sq1tzl.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i58.tinypic.com/2lm19pz.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i57.tinypic.com/65akwj.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i60.tinypic.com/642l3l.jpg[/img]

We are not worthy!

[img width=600]http://i57.tinypic.com/34nh7xx.jpg[/img]

Perhaps my Parisian AirBnB hostess is originally a native of Athens.
Not wanting to offend any god, she has taken Pascal's wager to the highest level and has filled her home with idols.

Acts 17:16 While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols.

I think Saul of Tarsus and John of Steinbeck (voce sotto) (hallowed be his name) handled this very tactfully by advocating 'To a god unknown'. A'gnostic.

23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

“I should have known,” he whispered. “I am the rain.” And yet he looked dully down the mountains of his body where the hills fell to an abyss. He felt the driving rain, and heard it whipping down, pattering on the ground. He saw his hills grow dark with moisture. Then a lancing pain shot through the heart of the world. “I am the land,” he said, “and I am the rain. The grass will grow out of me in a little while.”
And the storm thickened, and covered the world with darkness, and with the rush of waters.”

John Steinbeck, To a God Unknown


My encounter with Rio Jesus has shaken my faith in Mexican Catholicism.

As for me and my house, I have decided to put my money down next to the sight hound - because they are great, elegant dogs - and incorrigible thieves.

Rio Jesus just seems tacky compared to Anubis

I think Coffee will back me up on this.

Bala’am also seems nice.  Great jaguars in Maya Land.

As for the Scarab beetle, who would worship that?  I'm looking at you, Frugal.

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:27 am
by MachineGhost
LOL!

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:08 pm
by Mountaineer
I am currently reading a very interesting book, "Standing Firm - A Christian Response to Hostility and Persecution" by Jesse Yow, published 2015.  A paragraph on page 58 caught my attention:

Since sin involves self-interest and self-sovereignty over and against the lordship of Christ, actions that seem logical from a personal (i.e. selfish, narrow, and sinful) point of view will often be at perverse odds with actions that are logical from God's (i.e. selfless, larger, and holy) point of view.  This contrast shows up in how or where people seek personal validation and fulfillment and extends to how people respond to Christians or Christian ministry; for a simple example, expanding a Christian shelter for the homeless might be well received by those wishing to feed, shelter, and witness to the homeless in the name of God, but opposed by people with selfish interests who object to bringing "undesirables" into the neighborhood.  More seriously, people with belief systems (i.e. religions) that require them to establish their own self-worth and righteousness will typically gravitate toward one of two reactions when they learn of God's grace in Jesus Christ: either they embrace it with joy and relief or they utterly reject it because it threatens their own sovereignty.  Directly or indirectly, this lust lies beneath much of the hostility and persecutiion directed toward Christians today.

... M

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:40 pm
by Mark Leavy
Me and Hell and the Mexican Catholic Virgins

I really do like Mexican Catholics.  They are sexy and smart and fun.  I keep trying to be one - but whenever we go to a dance together they tell me that it is my turn to dance with the broomstick.  Damn.  Again?

Obviously, this makes me wonder about my eternal soul.  If a 17 year old Catholic Mexican Virgin won’t love me, who will?

I had to think about this.

I know that me and Harry Browne and Ayn Rand and Mahatma Gandhi and Galileo and Isaac Newton and Pythagorus will all be hanging together in Heck.  OK, hell, Harry and I deserve it (and let's be honest, Isaac loved his demons) - but the thought of Pythagorus and Gandhi having to put up with my dumb math jokes and eternal torment just because they never knew about that Nazarene carpenter dude seems a bit unfair.  Admittedly, I’m a bit selfish and I am glad that they will be with me burning in heck forever,  but it does seem unfair to them.  I’ll get over it.  That's the way I am.

[img width=600]http://i61.tinypic.com/2ynjpg9.gif[/img]

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:27 pm
by Mark Leavy
Maximizing Eternal Options

As many of you know (in the spirit of this thread) I have been earnestly searching for a non-Newtonian entity to guide my eternal future.

This is not as easy as it sounds.  Thank god, I’m doing the hard work for you.

Many of the great gods of history have offered promising remuneration.  But that would be shallow.  I’m not above shallow.

We’ve gone back and forth with this before.  I am especially fond of the Abrahamic god. A Chinese menu of rewards.  Select your prophet:  Favored people.  Post apocalyptic eternal life on an earthly paradise.  Non-Newtonian frolicking in an afterworld (with just a small chance of eternal torment), Multiple virgins in exchange for a single act of machoism.

That’s quite a carte.

In this day and age - you have to go with Yahweh.  He’s the biggest franchise in town.

And as I’ve explained previously, in spite of the post birth dick shortening, I’ve decided to go with the Christ flavor of Abrahamic deism.

But… as attractive as these once-in-a-lifetime Yahweh/Christ deals are, non of them have really been working for me.  Until now.  The pope appeared to me in a vision (of sorts) last night and I’ve finally found a version of Christianity that addresses my short attention span.

[img width=600]http://i61.tinypic.com/1zg9vyd.jpg[/img]

I am a notoriously big talker (and muy macho), but the truth is that I am, (ahem) just averagely endowed.

It is clear to me that the Christ flavored and Pope Approved religion of New Guinea contains just the right level of animism for my tastes.  A Koteka offers the best risk vs. reward for my personal salvation.

[img width=600]http://i60.tinypic.com/2l92io1.jpg[/img]

Disclaimer: I am not a Shaman or a Bishop or a Cannibal.  But I’m willing to try.  These are only my personal opinions and I have no direct knowledge of what a penis sheath will do to your afterlife.  Or currentlife.  Or souplife.

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:12 pm
by Fred
Mountaineer wrote:
Fred wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Some thoughts on prayer, to go along with the Lord's Prayer - note the emphasis on "thy will be done" (not my will) in the Lord's Prayer - i.e. God is in charge, not me (ref: Mt 6:5-13):
Don't see how you square your thinking about prayer with Jesus teaching on the subject. I'm thinking of the Canaanite lady who kept pestering Him to heal her daughter, I think it was, and he said he wasn't sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel so don't basically don't bother me lady. She kept pestering until he granted her request and then he said he hadn't found such faith in Israel (I could be confusing several Bible stories). There were several stories in the Gospels like that. The impression I got from those stories was that if God says no, keep trying, because you can change his mind and if you do he'll even commend you for it. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense but that's the way it seemed to me. If you keep saying, "If it be thy will" my impression was that he'd think you were a faithless wimp for quitting so easily.

That's just my impression and as I've said before I mostly just read the Bible when I was a Christian and didn't pay a lot of attention to what others had to say about it. So I'm probably wrong about a lot of the impressions I got. (Some sarcasm intended).
Fred, Jesus was the person who told his disciples how to pray when they asked - Jesus is the one who said the Lord's Prayer; how can this prayer, a model or general pattern for prayer, not be a very important Jesus theological teaching about faith? 

Re. the Canaanite woman, my perception is the account is more about faith and believing that Jesus would grant her request (Gospel) than an emphasis on doing (Law).  It is in contrast to the accounts of Jesus repeatedly chiding His disciples for their lack of faith (Mt 8:26; 14:31; 17:20), another very important Jesus teaching.

Note from my study Bible:  MATTHEW—NOTE ON 15:21–28 This persistent Canaanite woman gains Jesus’ praise for believing that He will help her sick daughter. In time of need, we often either fail to pray with such determination or only ask hesitantly. Instead, we ought to “pray without ceasing” (1Th 5:17). Jesus hears all prayers offered in His name, and He will answer in His own time and way as is best for us. Therefore, we can pray with confidence.

Concordia Publishing House (2009-10-31). The Lutheran Study Bible (Kindle Locations 112206-112209). Concordia Publishing House. Kindle Edition.

... M
Bottom line, Mountaineer. I don't give a crap about what the Lutheran Study Bible has to say about God answering prayer. Does God answer your prayers? I think that is the only testimony that most people think really matters.

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:41 pm
by Mountaineer
Fred wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
Fred wrote: Don't see how you square your thinking about prayer with Jesus teaching on the subject. I'm thinking of the Canaanite lady who kept pestering Him to heal her daughter, I think it was, and he said he wasn't sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel so don't basically don't bother me lady. She kept pestering until he granted her request and then he said he hadn't found such faith in Israel (I could be confusing several Bible stories). There were several stories in the Gospels like that. The impression I got from those stories was that if God says no, keep trying, because you can change his mind and if you do he'll even commend you for it. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense but that's the way it seemed to me. If you keep saying, "If it be thy will" my impression was that he'd think you were a faithless wimp for quitting so easily.

That's just my impression and as I've said before I mostly just read the Bible when I was a Christian and didn't pay a lot of attention to what others had to say about it. So I'm probably wrong about a lot of the impressions I got. (Some sarcasm intended).
Fred, Jesus was the person who told his disciples how to pray when they asked - Jesus is the one who said the Lord's Prayer; how can this prayer, a model or general pattern for prayer, not be a very important Jesus theological teaching about faith? 

Re. the Canaanite woman, my perception is the account is more about faith and believing that Jesus would grant her request (Gospel) than an emphasis on doing (Law).  It is in contrast to the accounts of Jesus repeatedly chiding His disciples for their lack of faith (Mt 8:26; 14:31; 17:20), another very important Jesus teaching.

Note from my study Bible:  MATTHEW—NOTE ON 15:21–28 This persistent Canaanite woman gains Jesus’ praise for believing that He will help her sick daughter. In time of need, we often either fail to pray with such determination or only ask hesitantly. Instead, we ought to “pray without ceasing” (1Th 5:17). Jesus hears all prayers offered in His name, and He will answer in His own time and way as is best for us. Therefore, we can pray with confidence.

Concordia Publishing House (2009-10-31). The Lutheran Study Bible (Kindle Locations 112206-112209). Concordia Publishing House. Kindle Edition.

... M
Bottom line, Mountaineer. I don't give a crap about what the Lutheran Study Bible has to say about God answering prayer. Does God answer your prayers? I think that is the only testimony that most people think really matters.
Some material from tonight's Bible class on the second petition of the Lord's Prayer:

The truth is that everyone has a king and that there are only two kingdoms in which we live: either the kingdom of the devil or the kingdom of God.  The kingdom of the devil is a kingdom of darkness.  It is the kingdom of this world, a kingdom ruled by the Father of Lies and his Lie that we can ge gods in place of God.  It is a kingdom in which everyone serves themselves, where every appetite is indulged, where everyone is like God.  It's end is death and destruction and many can sense that intuitively even if they try to avoid thinking about it.  The devil turns out to be no king at all.  God is lord even of the devil.  Hell is not the kingdom of the devil.  Hell is the end and outcome of the devil's kingdom.  It is ruled over by God in his wrath. 

The kingdom of God has already come in the death and resurrection of Jesus.  God has raised up His royal banner on the tree of the cross, jammed it in the earth and cried out "it is finished."

Fred, to answer your question, yes; and I pray that God's will be done for you.  Jesus died for everyone, even you and others who apparently do not give a crap about much, or do give a crap enough to mock God.  May God crack open the hardness of your hearts and let in the light before you lay in eternal darkness under a hard cold stone where there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Blessings.

... M

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:09 am
by Mark Leavy
Desert wrote: Mark,

After hours of pondering your situation, I'm afraid that I agree that Mexican-style Catholicism is probably not for you.  From the photos of the gods in your room, and given your obvious debaucherous proclivities, I'd be tempted to go with the topless god with the banjo (if I were you; sadly, I am not, and am therefore not wandering the dusty streets of Mexico eating $.50 tacos from a filthy street vendor). 

By the way, where in Mexico are you?  I'll be down there in a couple weeks.  It's a small place, I might run into you there.  Maybe we could hit a mass or two.
Thanks Desert.  I'm in France.  The food seems okay.

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:03 am
by MachineGhost
This seems up you guys alley:

The Mysterious Origins of Man (presented by Charlton Heston!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Yp0dCqfpg

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:54 pm
by MachineGhost
They're opening a can of worms here...  because once you start questioning basic premises, anything and everything can be considered truth.  Where will you draw the line?

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:10 pm
by Fred
MachineGhost wrote:
They're opening a can of worms here...  because once you start questioning basic premises, anything and everything can be considered truth.  Where will you draw the line?
I'm guessing that Mr. Swinburne was not at all questioning basic premises when he performed this experiment. Had he entered his figures into Baye's Theorem and the resurrection came out as being improbable I'm willing to bet we would have never heard about it and he would have kept on believing any way. That's just the way the religious mind works. I know because I once had one.

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:08 pm
by Mountaineer
Interesting post from another forum:

... M


Re: Roman Catholic Synod on the Family, October 4-25, 2015

A couple of interventions by lay auditors--both women--at the Synod have been striking. One I have in its original English text:

Intervento della Dott.ssa Anca-Maria CERNEA, Medico presso il Centro di Diagnosi e Trattamenti Victor-Babes e Presidente dell'Associazione dei Medici cattolici di Bucarest (Romania)

Your Holiness, Synod Fathers, Brothers and Sisters,

I represent the Association of Catholic Doctors from Bucharest.

I am from the Romanian Greek Catholic Church.

My father was a Christian political leader, who was imprisoned by the communists for 17 years. My parents were engaged to marry, but their wedding took place 17 years later.

My mother waited all those years for my father, although she didn’t even know if he was still alive. They have been heroically faithful to God and to their engagement.

Their example shows that God’s grace can overcame terrible social circumstances and material poverty.

We, as Catholic doctors, defending life and family, can see this is, first of all, a spiritual battle.

Material poverty and consumerism are not the primary cause of the family crisis.

The primary cause of the sexual and cultural revolution is ideological.

Our Lady of Fatima has said that Russia’s errors would spread all over the world.

It was first done under a violent form, classical Marxism, by killing tens of millions.

Now it’s being done mostly by cultural Marxism. There is continuity from Lenin’s sex revolution, through Gramsci and the Frankfurt school, to the current-day gay-rights and gender ideology.

Classical Marxism pretended to redesign society, through violent take-over of property.

Now the revolution goes deeper; it pretends to redefine family, sex identity and human nature.

This ideology calls itself progressive. But it is nothing else than the ancient serpent’s offer, for man to take control, to replace God, to arrange salvation here, in this world.

It’s an error of religious nature, it’s Gnosticism.

It’s the task of the shepherds to recognize it, and warn the flock against this danger.

“Seek ye thereforefirst the Kingdom of God, and His justice, and all these things shall be added unto you.”

The Church’s mission is to save souls. Evil, in this world, comes from sin. Not from income disparity or “climate change”.

The solution is: Evangelization. Conversion.

Not an ever increasing government control. Not a world government. These are nowadays the main agents imposing cultural Marxism to our nations, under the form of population control, reproductive health, gay rights, gender education, and so on.

What the world needs nowadays is not limitation of freedom, but real freedom, liberation from sin. Salvation.

Our Church was suppressed by the soviet occupation. But none of our 12 bishops betrayed their communion with the Holy Father. Our Church survived thanks to our bishops’ determination and example in resisting prisons and terror.

Our bishops asked the community not to follow the world. Not to cooperate with the communists.

Now we need Rome to tell the world: “Repentof your sins and turn to God,for the Kingdom of Heaven is near”.

Not only us, the Catholic laity, but also many Christian Orthodox are anxiously praying for this Synod. Because, as they say, if the Catholic Church gives in to the spirit of this world, it is going to be very difficult for all the other Christians to resist it.


[01738-EN.01] [Original text: English]


Peace,
Michael

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:01 pm
by MachineGhost
Mountaineer wrote: Not an ever increasing government control. Not a world government. These are nowadays the main agents imposing cultural Marxism to our nations, under the form of population control, reproductive health, gay rights, gender education, and so on.
LOL, did they leave anything out of that list of New World Order conspiracies?  The more things change, the more things stay the same.

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:30 pm
by Mountaineer
A stroll through history - click link for the timeline of the Reformation:

http://lutheranreformation.org/history/ ... -timeline/

... M

The world was changing. New scientific discoveries had opened pathways for understanding more about our complex universe. The ocean, once feared for its danger and depth, was tamed for travel and trade. Peasants and workers, laboring under harsh and relentless conditions, sought revolution. The bubonic plague had claimed the lives of about 75 million people from 1347 to 1351. It continued to reappear and panic European cities. Political alliances, long forged between pope and prince, fractured as power centers shifted. Gutenberg’s press (1455), the first to use movable type, transported ideas from one person to the next with swiftness and ease. As the medieval era collapsed into the modern, changes seemed everywhere and limitless.

Yet even during these changing times one thing remained constant: our God, who grants forgiveness and grace to His people through Jesus Christ. Despite advances and transformations in science and society, politics and publication, God was working. He gave hope and life by His Spirit through Word and Sacraments. He bestowed comfort and joy in trying and often perilous situations. In changing times, His promises through His Son did not change, nor will they ever. They will never be altered, nor revoked. His Word pronounces us righteous through faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. He alone is our Life and our Peace.

Significant people and events in the “Old World” as well as the “New” have been included for the years 1436 to 1600. Additional references include scientific discoveries, substantive works of art, and the arrivals of European explorers to the Americas. Items in bold indicate writings and events specifically relating to the Lutheran Confessions.

This timeline confirms what we know by experience: change will take place. But in changing times God’s Word reminds us that He is always faithful to His people. With hearty confidence and trust we can say with King David, “My times are in Your hands” (Psalm 31:15).

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:26 pm
by Mountaineer
Interesting response to "same-sex marriage" SCOTUS debacle.

http://www.antiochian.org/metropolitan- ... x-marriage

Excerpt:
The status of so-called "same-sex marriage" and the reason for this Directive

It is this "beginning" which is often forgotten these days. As manifest by the recent U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in a 5-4 split-decision (Obergefell v. Hodges, 26 June, 2015), now well-known to all, a significant cap-stone was placed upon the rapid movement in our county toward a re-definition of marriage, which, of course, in the Church we consider to be unacceptable. To be precise, the Supreme Court's decision does not make any new law. However, it rules as non-binding any law which limits the legal definition of marriage to that of an exclusive union of one man to one woman. In the light of these facts, we issue this Archiepiscopal Directive in order to underscore the natural definition of marriage as a word to our "parish"; namely, the region of North America, so that all people may be summoned back to God-given common sense. But we also offer comfort to our spiritual children, all the Orthodox faithful—of our own Archdiocese, as well as the entire pan-Orthodox faithful of our sister jurisdictions—in order to show the "more excellent way."


Specific directives are in the link.

... M

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:53 am
by rocketdog
Desert wrote: Where the Gospels Came From:
Have you ever wondered where the gospels came from? Here’s your answer, compiled from Bart Ehrman (for the telephone game) and too many atheist Internet sources to list. (Yes, this is satire.)
https://www.thinkingchristian.net/posts ... uffer4bd79
The irony is that the author of that post still doesn't explain where the gospels came from, because nobody actually knows the answer to that question even to this day.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historica ... p_and_date

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:02 pm
by Fred
Desert wrote: Regarding the authorship of the Gospel of Mark, here's a decent, brief summary of the evidence:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Gospel-of-Mark.html
Since it was called "The Gospel of Mark" it is not surprising that the early church fathers unanimously attributed it to Mark. Do you think they had better resources available then than we do now to determine the authenticity of it, or could their own biases possibly be showing?

The interesting thing I find about Mark is that, as the earliest gospel, it has no birth narrative and no appearance after the resurrection. Matthew, Luke, and John came later so can you really blame someone for thinking there have been embellishments to the original story, like the annunciation of the virgin birth and the resurrection appearances? Especially when the accounts don't even agree with each other and in the case of the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke are widely different and beyond reconciliation without great mental gymnastics.

You can think of this as rabid atheists out to undermine the Bible in fulfillment of Bible prophecy if you like but I consider it simply rational thinking about religious claims.

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:42 pm
by Fred
Desert wrote: The "early church fathers" lived alongside John Mark, so yes, they had a clearer view of the book's authorship than any revisionist scholar of today has. 
Well, you have to define "early church father". Some of those defined as such are in the second and third century so there is no way they could have known the person named John Mark. And I'm skeptical about even any of the early ones living "alongside" this person. If you have any references I'll be happy to read them.
Fred wrote: The interesting thing I find about Mark is that, as the earliest gospel, it has no birth narrative and no appearance after the resurrection.
Fred wrote: The second claim in bold is untrue.  The first is true, and I agree it is interesting that one Gospel author decided not to write about Jesus's birth, but it's certainly not evidence of anything significant (unless one wanted to claim that Jesus was not born, I suppose). 
Read it again and leave out verses 9-20 which just about everybody agrees aren't part of the original. Jesus does not appear to anyone in that narrative.

This is the way it ends....

8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.[a]

Make of that as the end of the first, original account of the resurrection what you will.

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:18 pm
by Xan
Happy Reformation Day, everyone!  The 500th anniversary of the Reformation is approaching soon: just two more years.

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:48 pm
by MachineGhost
Desert wrote: ave the decades (or sometimes centuries) needed for it to have developed the way all other ancient myths did. [/b]
You don't need decades or centuries for a tipping point equilibrium shift.  Especially one from rampant barbarism for centuries to more civilized compassion and mercy.  That was the real event that occurred, not so much Jesus' alleged resurrection.  Does the illusion really matter if the end results are good public policy?

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:46 am
by MachineGhost
Desert wrote: Jesus isn't showing us how to be better or more moral; He's saying something much more complex, and more radical.  I hesitate to quote a few verses like this, because His words need to be read and understood in totality, but I wanted to show that the main message of Jesus is not that we need to be nicer, more civilized, and get along better with each other.  It's far more profound than that.
Well, realistically, you can't tell the real Jesus now from the hyperbolism that each Gospel allegedly wrote about him, but if he was really an asshole, that seems rather at odds with what transformed the world.  I expect the religion rapidly spun out of control and took on a life of its own as all things seem to do when the Great Unwashed gets ahold of something.

Of course, if your interpretation is that Jesus wanted submissive masochists out of fear and kowtowing to some "God"...  well, that just smacks of rationalization for believing in what has no proof.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, not extraordinary emotionalism.

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:02 am
by Fred
Desert wrote: Whether the end of the Gospel of Mark is authentic (in the original writings) or not, belief in the resurrection began almost immediately after the crucifixion, and that belief drove the rapid expansion of Christianity in the face of massive persecution. 
I'm currently reading a book called "The Rise of Christianity, A Sociologist Reconsiders History" that is challenging both the common belief in the rapid expansion of Christianity and that of massive persecution. The latter is being challenged quite a bit nowadays.

It's slow reading and I haven't gotten very far yet so I'll have to get back to you on the conclusions.

My current belief about the Historical Jesus is along the lines of Albert Schweitzer in "The Quest of the Historical Jesus", that he was an apocalyptic prophet, and Christianity was a failed apocalyptic movement that morphed into a religion. This is also now the prevailing view of most non-believing Bible scholars. In my opinion, it is the only way the New Testament makes any sense.

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:33 am
by MachineGhost
Fred wrote: My current belief about the Historical Jesus is along the lines of Albert Schweitzer in "The Quest of the Historical Jesus", that he was an apocalyptic prophet, and Christianity was a failed apocalyptic movement that morphed into a religion. This is also now the prevailing view of most non-believing Bible scholars. In my opinion, it is the only way the New Testament makes any sense.
I mentioned before your time here that self-proclaimed apocalyptic prophets were a dime a dozen in Roman times.  There were literally thousands of different Messianic stories floating around and probably hundreds of devoted groupie cults to match.  "Christianity" was just the winning composite of all that came before.  Victors write history.

Frankly, I think its Constantinople that institutionalized the "winner" and morphed it into a modern religion.  Let me know if the book declares otherwise.

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:38 am
by Pointedstick
Jesus wrote:“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.

“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
If a religious leader today said those exact words, I wonder what the world reaction would be.