Figuring Out Religion
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:01 am
So Mountaineer made this comment in another thread, and this is probably as good a starting point as any:
On what basis can a person conclude as a factual matter that Jesus did and said all of the things attributed to him in the Gospels? There are easily observable contradictions and embellishments in the Gospels. If some inaccuracies can be seen by simply comparing the text of the Gospels with one another, what would make us think that there may not be other embellishments, including the time-honored practice back then of attributing miracles to very wise people (actually, the Catholic church is still doing that today). It seems like we are talking about a matter of faith right off the bat, with a somewhat weak basis for even faith, given the contradictions among the Gospels when taken literally.
Not to be irreverent here, but why is so much made of the offer of forgiveness? If God is righteous and he made us and some of us turned out not to be righteous, is an offer of forgiveness really all that special? That almost seems like providing warranty service on the human soul when it goes haywire. It's not a gift so much as a the same type of obligation that manufacturers assumes when they build any product.
If you can, please provide more information about the gift of forgiveness and why it's a gift? If I tell God that I love him and simply want to be closer to Him, why can I not even be in God's presence without being washed in the blood of his mortal son who was murdered by a joint effort between Roman rulers and Jewish clerics? That almost seems like God gets out of connecting with people on a technicality ("Sorry, no one came to your village to preach the Gospel--can't talk to you or forgive you"). If God is God, why is He limited to only listening to those who are aware of the Jesus story? To use a car metaphor, it would be like saying that the manufacturer's warranty only applies to cars purchased from a certain dealership.
More generally, why is it necessary for a supernatural being to forgive us of anything in the first place? Why can't we forgive ourselves or have other people forgive us, sort of like the Catholics do?
Those are just a few things that pop to mind.
***
I do want to get to the details of your own journey, but the questions above always pop into my head and I never seem to get very satisfactory answers. When someone says that "you just have to have faith", I want to say "Why? Why do I have to have faith? Why can't I have anything more substantive than that?" If I told someone that the fate of his soul rested on a series of principles that he was just going to have to take my word for because I had consulted with some documents that some unknown people wrote 2,000 years ago, I would expect him to tell me that he appreciated my concern, but that he simply wasn't ready to change his whole life based upon that story. If I then told him that he might suffer for all of eternity if he didn't take my story seriously, I would feel like I was applying coercion to help strengthen a story that simply wasn't persuasive on its own.
***
(I hope that's not too shrill a way to begin a discussion about a delicate topic.)
These are the snags I hit as I read that:It is not really about me or my feelings or my witnessing to others by telling them how I made a choice for God. It is about the fact Jesus came, lived, died and raised from the dead for the purpose bringing us eternal life. You are forgiven, no matter what you have done or not done in the past; just don't reject the gift. I probably butchered that, but I will do my best to explain my journey and/or maybe suggest some stuff to consider. Peace. Later.
On what basis can a person conclude as a factual matter that Jesus did and said all of the things attributed to him in the Gospels? There are easily observable contradictions and embellishments in the Gospels. If some inaccuracies can be seen by simply comparing the text of the Gospels with one another, what would make us think that there may not be other embellishments, including the time-honored practice back then of attributing miracles to very wise people (actually, the Catholic church is still doing that today). It seems like we are talking about a matter of faith right off the bat, with a somewhat weak basis for even faith, given the contradictions among the Gospels when taken literally.
Not to be irreverent here, but why is so much made of the offer of forgiveness? If God is righteous and he made us and some of us turned out not to be righteous, is an offer of forgiveness really all that special? That almost seems like providing warranty service on the human soul when it goes haywire. It's not a gift so much as a the same type of obligation that manufacturers assumes when they build any product.
If you can, please provide more information about the gift of forgiveness and why it's a gift? If I tell God that I love him and simply want to be closer to Him, why can I not even be in God's presence without being washed in the blood of his mortal son who was murdered by a joint effort between Roman rulers and Jewish clerics? That almost seems like God gets out of connecting with people on a technicality ("Sorry, no one came to your village to preach the Gospel--can't talk to you or forgive you"). If God is God, why is He limited to only listening to those who are aware of the Jesus story? To use a car metaphor, it would be like saying that the manufacturer's warranty only applies to cars purchased from a certain dealership.
More generally, why is it necessary for a supernatural being to forgive us of anything in the first place? Why can't we forgive ourselves or have other people forgive us, sort of like the Catholics do?
Those are just a few things that pop to mind.
***
I do want to get to the details of your own journey, but the questions above always pop into my head and I never seem to get very satisfactory answers. When someone says that "you just have to have faith", I want to say "Why? Why do I have to have faith? Why can't I have anything more substantive than that?" If I told someone that the fate of his soul rested on a series of principles that he was just going to have to take my word for because I had consulted with some documents that some unknown people wrote 2,000 years ago, I would expect him to tell me that he appreciated my concern, but that he simply wasn't ready to change his whole life based upon that story. If I then told him that he might suffer for all of eternity if he didn't take my story seriously, I would feel like I was applying coercion to help strengthen a story that simply wasn't persuasive on its own.
***
(I hope that's not too shrill a way to begin a discussion about a delicate topic.)