I'm a sucker for bait. If I were a fish I'm sure I would be mounted on someone's gameroom wall.Fred wrote:This is very true. I keep wondering when nobody will take the bait any more but his mind is such a target rich environment of logical absurdities that it can be irresistible.jafs wrote: Also, it's crystal clear that none of these little questions will have any effect on his belief, which is probably why many on here are comfortable questioning it - he just repeats it at length every time a new question comes up.
Figuring Out Religion
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Re: Figuring Out Religion
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
Re: Figuring Out Religion
This means that your worldview/religion actually is nihilism then, right? So there is no "real" morality. There's no reason for some things to be right and others wrong. You wrap yourself in morality like an umbrella, but you know that ultimately the storm is the truth and that morality is an illusion that helps us get by. (I think Desert's point was that atheists try to "tack on" morality by appealing to nature, and that that's inconsistent with nihilism.)MediumTex wrote:I think that if religion is the umbrella, nihilism is the storm. It falls on us all and we each protect ourselves from it the best way we can using the tools our culture provides us with.In other words, why not nihilism, for the non-religious? Isn't that the logical end result?
I actually think the storm analogy is pretty good: the storm of chaos, nothingness, and destruction IS raging in this world, and will ultimately destroy it. And we do hold up umbrellas and idols to try to protect ourselves in this world. But in Christianity we have a sure and certain hope that there is a real world of which this is just a shadow. That when this world destroys itself, reality will go on. Reality came all the way to this shadow world to attach itself to us. As we have been Baptized and heard the Word and eaten the Supper, we have been grafted on to the "true vine", which will go right on living after the storm.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion
MT, thanks for answering the questions. I love this forum! And all its weird, intelligent, mostly kind, and curious characters.MediumTex wrote:Forgiveness wouldn't enter into my thinking.Will you forgive your son if he disobeys you and is bitten?
Because I would be more interested in trying to make sure he didn't die than in deciding how best to judge him.Why?
I don't know.How do the 6 assumptions above relate to the "scenario of the day"?
Bingo on your above answers! (and I suspect you do know, or have the capability to figure it out).
... M
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
Re: Figuring Out Religion
That's a pretty fancy umbrella you've got there.Xan wrote:This means that your worldview/religion actually is nihilism then, right? So there is no "real" morality. There's no reason for some things to be right and others wrong. You wrap yourself in morality like an umbrella, but you know that ultimately the storm is the truth and that morality is an illusion that helps us get by. (I think Desert's point was that atheists try to "tack on" morality by appealing to nature, and that that's inconsistent with nihilism.)MediumTex wrote:I think that if religion is the umbrella, nihilism is the storm. It falls on us all and we each protect ourselves from it the best way we can using the tools our culture provides us with.In other words, why not nihilism, for the non-religious? Isn't that the logical end result?
I actually think the storm analogy is pretty good: the storm of chaos, nothingness, and destruction IS raging in this world, and will ultimately destroy it. And we do hold up umbrellas and idols to try to protect ourselves in this world. But in Christianity we have a sure and certain hope that there is a real world of which this is just a shadow. That when this world destroys itself, reality will go on. Reality came all the way to this shadow world to attach itself to us. As we have been Baptized and heard the Word and eaten the Supper, we have been grafted on to the "true vine", which will go right on living after the storm.
It doesn't just block the rain, it annihilates it.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
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Re: Figuring Out Religion
I think you're right, Xan. If I'm really honest with myself, nihilism is ultimately my world view, and the moral feelings that I view as intrinsic are in a constant battle with the part of my brain that says, "nothing matters, your life isn't special, you're just an over-intelligent primate whose species has created a complex society that requires all this cultural baggage to function." And ultimately that's what I believe, even if I don't really like it. MT asked a little bit ago why anyone would believe anything that made them feel miserable and uneasy, and I think this qualifies. The answer is because I have a pathological need to seek out what I believe is the truth, no matter how deeply buried, and once I peeled away all the onion layers of the world around me, nihilism was the nugget I found in the middle. It is a rather depressing nugget, but I cannot seem to figure out how to make it go away. I can't open it up and see what's inside because it is what's inside, and I can't put back a couple of layers of the onion (of which religion is one) because I've already seen beyond them. Could you really be delighted by a magic trick whose secret you already know? If you really wanted to be delighted by it again, could you somehow force yourself despite possession of the knowledge that strips it of its mystery?
The way I see it, religion is built on morality, and morality is our brain's intrinsic defense against the nihilistic reality of life as a living creature. Religion attempts to bolster morality and builds on it, giving form and vigor to the otherwise nebulous and ill-defined moral feelings that are in all of us. In essence, we are so intelligent that we are vulnerable to nihilism, so we have this built-in system to stave it off that we have further strengthened by inventing religions. For some reason, this mechanism seems to be broken in me. I cannot resist opening the door that morality and religion try so hard to bar. It's just as MT said: I wish I could be religious, and gain the good feelings that all of you believers clearly feel and benefit from. But I can't seem to do it. The door to nihilism is already open. Even if I close and lock the door and never open it again, I've already seen the truth that it was meant to hide from me.
The way I see it, religion is built on morality, and morality is our brain's intrinsic defense against the nihilistic reality of life as a living creature. Religion attempts to bolster morality and builds on it, giving form and vigor to the otherwise nebulous and ill-defined moral feelings that are in all of us. In essence, we are so intelligent that we are vulnerable to nihilism, so we have this built-in system to stave it off that we have further strengthened by inventing religions. For some reason, this mechanism seems to be broken in me. I cannot resist opening the door that morality and religion try so hard to bar. It's just as MT said: I wish I could be religious, and gain the good feelings that all of you believers clearly feel and benefit from. But I can't seem to do it. The door to nihilism is already open. Even if I close and lock the door and never open it again, I've already seen the truth that it was meant to hide from me.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion
You are echoing MT's love of Ecclesiastes (vanity, it is all vanity where vanity = meaninglessness). However, think about Ecc a bit more, read it again, and again. It is only meaningless without God - the only living God, not a god.Pointedstick wrote: I think you're right, Xan. If I'm really honest with myself, nihilism is ultimately my world view, and the moral feelings that I view as intrinsic are in a constant battle with the part of my brain that says, "nothing matters, your life isn't special, you're just an over-intelligent primate whose species has created a complex society that requires all this cultural baggage to function." And ultimately that's what I believe, even if I don't really like it. MT asked a little bit ago why anyone would believe anything that made them feel miserable and uneasy, and I think this qualifies. The answer is because I have a pathological need to seek out what I believe is the truth, no matter how deeply buried, and once I peeled away all the onion layers of the world around me, nihilism was the nugget I found in the middle. It is a rather depressing nugget, but I cannot seem to figure out how to make it go away. I can't open it up and see what's inside because it is what's inside, and I can't put back a couple of layers of the onion (of which religion is one) because I've already seen beyond them. Could you really be delighted by a magic trick whose secret you already know? If you really wanted to be delighted by it again, could you somehow force yourself despite possession of the knowledge that strips it of its mystery?
The way I see it, religion is built on morality, and morality is our brain's intrinsic defense against the nihilistic reality of life as a living creature. Religion attempts to bolster morality and builds on it, giving form and vigor to the otherwise nebulous and ill-defined moral feelings that are in all of us. In essence, we are so intelligent that we are vulnerable to nihilism, so we have this built-in system to stave it off that we have further strengthened by inventing religions. For some reason, this mechanism seems to be broken in me. I cannot resist opening the door that morality and religion try so hard to bar. It's just as MT said: I wish I could be religious, and gain the good feelings that all of you believers clearly feel and benefit from. But I can't seem to do it. The door to nihilism is already open. Even if I close and lock the door and never open it again, I've already seen the truth that it was meant to hide from me.
Where does that nugget nihilism come from?
Are you sure there is nothing in that nugget, or have you just not yet discovered the way to peel the nugget skin? How do you know?
Where do morals come from?
Where does our ability to ask those questions come from?
How do you know?
... M
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion
With all due respect, Mountaineer, I don't think you can help me. You're so deep into your world view that nothing makes sense to you unless seen within its context--a context that I lack. I do appreciate the sentiment behind the words.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion
PS,
I have come to view nihilism like the death of the person you love most in the world.
At first, the pain is so intense that it just washes over you like a wave of black despair. Then as you pull your head above the water all you see is a lonely black night filled with nothingness and no one.
Occasionally, you forget about the pain, and the moments when it comes crashing back in can be some of the worst, like ripping out the stitches from a carefully sutured wound.
It's awful.
As time passes, though, it can get better. And after a lot of time passes, the degree to which you can be healed can be shocking. Sometimes the scar can barely even be seen, and you may even find that when you think about it your thoughts are mostly pleasant, like a soldier reflecting on a war 50 years later, remembering the bad, but no longer feeling traumatized by it.
Not everyone gets through it like that, but it is possible to get through it like that. In other words, I don't think that nihilism is necessarily a chronic condition, though for many it obviously is. Religion, of course, offers a different type of solution to the problem, but as you noted some people are allergic to that type of medicine.
I have come to view nihilism like the death of the person you love most in the world.
At first, the pain is so intense that it just washes over you like a wave of black despair. Then as you pull your head above the water all you see is a lonely black night filled with nothingness and no one.
Occasionally, you forget about the pain, and the moments when it comes crashing back in can be some of the worst, like ripping out the stitches from a carefully sutured wound.
It's awful.
As time passes, though, it can get better. And after a lot of time passes, the degree to which you can be healed can be shocking. Sometimes the scar can barely even be seen, and you may even find that when you think about it your thoughts are mostly pleasant, like a soldier reflecting on a war 50 years later, remembering the bad, but no longer feeling traumatized by it.
Not everyone gets through it like that, but it is possible to get through it like that. In other words, I don't think that nihilism is necessarily a chronic condition, though for many it obviously is. Religion, of course, offers a different type of solution to the problem, but as you noted some people are allergic to that type of medicine.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
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Re: Figuring Out Religion
Good works are God at work in us and through us. Thus, pure religion (genuine Christianity that is not feigned) is of God, not of man. It is not a construct at all except in so far as God constructed it. The Christian religion is God's saving grace in action, including the proclaimed Word, the Sacraments as God ordained them, and the faith-inspired loving acts of God's people, none of which are human constructs.
... M
... M
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
Re: Figuring Out Religion
Although I have rejected Christianity and probably all religion I don't think I could call myself a nihilist, if I understand the meaning of the term.
Maybe it has something to do with the drugs I took back in the 60's and 70's but I'm not able to completely rule out the possibility that there is some kind of meaning and purpose to life on planet earth. I've talked to people contemplating suicide in the past because they believe their life is meaningless and my advice is to ask how they can know whether their life is meaningless or not?. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The only way to find out is to see it through to the end and see what happens. So just consider it an adventure and go along for the ride. If it's meaningless, what have you got to lose any way?
Maybe it has something to do with the drugs I took back in the 60's and 70's but I'm not able to completely rule out the possibility that there is some kind of meaning and purpose to life on planet earth. I've talked to people contemplating suicide in the past because they believe their life is meaningless and my advice is to ask how they can know whether their life is meaningless or not?. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The only way to find out is to see it through to the end and see what happens. So just consider it an adventure and go along for the ride. If it's meaningless, what have you got to lose any way?
Re: Figuring Out Religion
Even if life has no more meaning than a day at Disneyland, it doesn't mean it can't be a very enjoyable experience, especially if you share the experience with people you care about.Fred wrote: Although I have rejected Christianity and probably all religion I don't think I could call myself a nihilist, if I understand the meaning of the term.
Maybe it has something to do with the drugs I took back in the 60's and 70's but I'm not able to completely rule out the possibility that there is some kind of meaning and purpose to life on planet earth. I've talked to people contemplating suicide in the past because they believe their life is meaningless and my advice is to ask how they can know whether their life is meaningless or not?. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The only way to find out is to see it through to the end and see what happens. So just consider it an adventure and go along for the ride. If it's meaningless, what have you got to lose any way?
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
Re: Figuring Out Religion
I'm with Fred.
The question is too big to be answered definitively in either direction. So one can believe in nothing, or believe in something - either choice has some supportive evidence.
The question is too big to be answered definitively in either direction. So one can believe in nothing, or believe in something - either choice has some supportive evidence.
Re: Figuring Out Religion
Given that there is no way to know for sure where we all came from or where we are all headed, I think that virtually any worldview ultimately rests on some set of beliefs about the unknown.jafs wrote: I'm with Fred.
The question is too big to be answered definitively in either direction. So one can believe in nothing, or believe in something - either choice has some supportive evidence.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
Re: Figuring Out Religion
I was reading a book yesterday that was defining Heaven and Hell in a way I hadn't thought about before.
1.) God is all that is good.
2.) God wants a relationship with his creation
3.) Evil is the absence of good. (like cold is the absence of heat, darkness is the absence of light, etc. there is no unit of measurement for darkness, only for light)
4.) God gave us the ability of freewill
5.) From our perspective, even if God already knows which decision we'll make, we still make our own decisions
6.) If we choose to have a relationship with God, we will be with him for all eternity after we die.
7.) If we choose to not have a relationship with God, we will be without him for all eternity after we die.
8.) Being with God means being in all good (Heaven).
9.) Being without God means being in the absence of all good, i.e. evil (Hell).
10.) Hell is not meant to be a means to scare people regarding pain/torture/etc for eternity. It is the reality of what eternity/life will be like without being in the presence of good (God). Being without God will be living in evil which we feel like torture/pain/etc.
In a sense, I was worried about the wrong thing before. I was worried about going to Hell. This is the wrong way to frame it. I want to think of it as I want to have a relationship with all that is good (i.e. God) and by doing so, I won't have to worry about Hell.
Much like going on a vacation with your significant other. What really matters is it's about the relationship, not where you go.
1.) God is all that is good.
2.) God wants a relationship with his creation
3.) Evil is the absence of good. (like cold is the absence of heat, darkness is the absence of light, etc. there is no unit of measurement for darkness, only for light)
4.) God gave us the ability of freewill
5.) From our perspective, even if God already knows which decision we'll make, we still make our own decisions
6.) If we choose to have a relationship with God, we will be with him for all eternity after we die.
7.) If we choose to not have a relationship with God, we will be without him for all eternity after we die.
8.) Being with God means being in all good (Heaven).
9.) Being without God means being in the absence of all good, i.e. evil (Hell).
10.) Hell is not meant to be a means to scare people regarding pain/torture/etc for eternity. It is the reality of what eternity/life will be like without being in the presence of good (God). Being without God will be living in evil which we feel like torture/pain/etc.
In a sense, I was worried about the wrong thing before. I was worried about going to Hell. This is the wrong way to frame it. I want to think of it as I want to have a relationship with all that is good (i.e. God) and by doing so, I won't have to worry about Hell.
Much like going on a vacation with your significant other. What really matters is it's about the relationship, not where you go.
Background: Mechanical Engineering, Robotics, Control Systems, CAD Modeling, Machining, Wearable Exoskeletons, Applied Physiology, Drawing (Pencil/Charcoal), Drums, Guitar/Bass, Piano, Flute
"you are not disabled by your disabilities but rather, abled by your abilities." -Oscar Pistorius
"you are not disabled by your disabilities but rather, abled by your abilities." -Oscar Pistorius
Re: Figuring Out Religion
Just appeared on Drudge. Seems highly relevant to recent discussions.
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencen ... story.htmlBelief in all-knowing, punitive gods aided the growth of human societies, study says.....
Re: Figuring Out Religion
Another thought is that everything conventional Christianity projects into eternity is actually intended to be experienced in each moment, for as long as you experience moments.Greg wrote: I was reading a book yesterday that was defining Heaven and Hell in a way I hadn't thought about before.
1.) God is all that is good.
2.) God wants a relationship with his creation
3.) Evil is the absence of good. (like cold is the absence of heat, darkness is the absence of light, etc. there is no unit of measurement for darkness, only for light)
4.) God gave us the ability of freewill
5.) From our perspective, even if God already knows which decision we'll make, we still make our own decisions
6.) If we choose to have a relationship with God, we will be with him for all eternity after we die.
7.) If we choose to not have a relationship with God, we will be without him for all eternity after we die.
8.) Being with God means being in all good (Heaven).
9.) Being without God means being in the absence of all good, i.e. evil (Hell).
10.) Hell is not meant to be a means to scare people regarding pain/torture/etc for eternity. It is the reality of what eternity/life will be like without being in the presence of good (God). Being without God will be living in evil which we feel like torture/pain/etc.
In a sense, I was worried about the wrong thing before. I was worried about going to Hell. This is the wrong way to frame it. I want to think of it as I want to have a relationship with all that is good (i.e. God) and by doing so, I won't have to worry about Hell.
Much like going on a vacation with your significant other. What really matters is it's about the relationship, not where you go.
When Jesus said “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21), I think this is what he was getting at.
Like the statue of David was lurking within the block of marble, so too does the Kingdom of God lurk within us. We must simply cultivate and refine it.
Other belief systems attempt to do the same thing because this moment is really all that we know for sure even exists. The past and future are phantoms, projections, and abstractions that simply color the way we experience this moment.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
Re: Figuring Out Religion
So it all boils down to you either have a personal relationship with God or you go to hell (why did you capitalize hell, btw)?Greg wrote: In a sense, I was worried about the wrong thing before. I was worried about going to Hell. This is the wrong way to frame it. I want to think of it as I want to have a relationship with all that is good (i.e. God) and by doing so, I won't have to worry about Hell.
A hard choice, isn't it? God loves us and gives us free will so we can either choose to love him back or go to hell. You really have to think about that one.
Personally, I think you are living in a very dark place if that's what you believe but I'm sure Mountaineer will chime in and set us all straight about how wrong our thinking is.
Re: Figuring Out Religion
I agree, the Kingdom of God is within us. Through a relationship with God, we can have him in our hearts on earth. We then live in the present and enjoy the relationship and how it changes as we grow older to ideally become more beautiful. I also agree with you that other belief systems attempt to work on the same lines for having this Kingdom of God. It is very difficult to discern which one is correct without a lot of effort on our part (and effort from God as well), it's one of the reasons I like studying comparative religions so that I am making an educated decision based on the information I'm taking in versus whatever culture I grew up in.MediumTex wrote: Another thought is that everything conventional Christianity projects into eternity is actually intended to be experienced in each moment, for as long as you experience moments.
When Jesus said “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21), I think this is what he was getting at.
Like the statue of David was lurking within the block of marble, so too does the Kingdom of God lurk within us. We must simply cultivate and refine it.
Other belief systems attempt to do the same thing because this moment is really all that we know for sure even exists. The past and future are phantoms, projections, and abstractions that simply color the way we experience this moment.
Background: Mechanical Engineering, Robotics, Control Systems, CAD Modeling, Machining, Wearable Exoskeletons, Applied Physiology, Drawing (Pencil/Charcoal), Drums, Guitar/Bass, Piano, Flute
"you are not disabled by your disabilities but rather, abled by your abilities." -Oscar Pistorius
"you are not disabled by your disabilities but rather, abled by your abilities." -Oscar Pistorius
Re: Figuring Out Religion
Regarding capitalization, I tend to capitalizes places. I consider Heaven and Hell to both be places, that's all.Fred wrote:So it all boils down to you either have a personal relationship with God or you go to hell (why did you capitalize hell, btw)?Greg wrote: In a sense, I was worried about the wrong thing before. I was worried about going to Hell. This is the wrong way to frame it. I want to think of it as I want to have a relationship with all that is good (i.e. God) and by doing so, I won't have to worry about Hell.
A hard choice, isn't it? God loves us and gives us free will so we can either choose to love him back or go to hell. You really have to think about that one.
Personally, I think you are living in a very dark place if that's what you believe but I'm sure Mountaineer will chime in and set us all straight about how wrong our thinking is.
And to your point, again I think we're mixing apples and oranges. It's either you want a relationship with God or you don't. Depending on your decision, God will honor your request and send you where you want to go. This may seem petty but I think it is good to highlight this difference in thinking. Someone doesn't make the decision to go to Hell. They make the decision to not have a relationship with God which then leads to going to Hell.
Same with food. The decision isn't to either eat or die. The decision is to eat or not eat. From that (assuming you didn't eat poison), you either live or you die based on your decision.
Background: Mechanical Engineering, Robotics, Control Systems, CAD Modeling, Machining, Wearable Exoskeletons, Applied Physiology, Drawing (Pencil/Charcoal), Drums, Guitar/Bass, Piano, Flute
"you are not disabled by your disabilities but rather, abled by your abilities." -Oscar Pistorius
"you are not disabled by your disabilities but rather, abled by your abilities." -Oscar Pistorius
Re: Figuring Out Religion
Maybe try it like this:Greg wrote:I agree, the Kingdom of God is within us. Through a relationship with God, we can have him in our hearts on earth. We then live in the present and enjoy the relationship and how it changes as we grow older to ideally become more beautiful. I also agree with you that other belief systems attempt to work on the same lines for having this Kingdom of God. It is very difficult to discern which one is correct without a lot of effort on our part (and effort from God as well), it's one of the reasons I like studying comparative religions so that I am making an educated decision based on the information I'm taking in versus whatever culture I grew up in.MediumTex wrote: Another thought is that everything conventional Christianity projects into eternity is actually intended to be experienced in each moment, for as long as you experience moments.
When Jesus said “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21), I think this is what he was getting at.
Like the statue of David was lurking within the block of marble, so too does the Kingdom of God lurk within us. We must simply cultivate and refine it.
Other belief systems attempt to do the same thing because this moment is really all that we know for sure even exists. The past and future are phantoms, projections, and abstractions that simply color the way we experience this moment.
I agree that what Jesus is recorded as having referred to as the Kingdom of God may be cultivated is within us. Through meditation and reflection on this topic relationship with God, we can have this internal spiritual experience him in our hearts on earth. We then live in the present and enjoy the new sense of understanding and awareness relationship and how it changes as we grow older to ideally become more beautiful. I also agree with you that other belief systems attempt to work on the same lines for having this experience Kingdom of God. It is very difficult to discern which one is correct without a lot of effort on our part (and effort from God as well), it's one of the reasons I like studying comparative philosophy and cultural belief systems about the meaning of life religions so that I am making an educated decision based on the information I'm taking in versus whatever culture I grew up in.
How's that?
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
Re: Figuring Out Religion
Wouldn't it be more precise to say that we want the things that we believe will come from a relationship with God?Greg wrote:Regarding capitalization, I tend to capitalizes places. I consider Heaven and Hell to both be places, that's all.Fred wrote:So it all boils down to you either have a personal relationship with God or you go to hell (why did you capitalize hell, btw)?Greg wrote: In a sense, I was worried about the wrong thing before. I was worried about going to Hell. This is the wrong way to frame it. I want to think of it as I want to have a relationship with all that is good (i.e. God) and by doing so, I won't have to worry about Hell.
A hard choice, isn't it? God loves us and gives us free will so we can either choose to love him back or go to hell. You really have to think about that one.
Personally, I think you are living in a very dark place if that's what you believe but I'm sure Mountaineer will chime in and set us all straight about how wrong our thinking is.
And to your point, again I think we're mixing apples and oranges. It's either you want a relationship with God or you don't. Depending on your decision, God will honor your request and send you where you want to go. This may seem petty but I think it is good to highlight this difference in thinking. Someone doesn't make the decision to go to Hell. They make the decision to not have a relationship with God which then leads to going to Hell.
Same with food. The decision isn't to either eat or die. The decision is to eat or not eat. From that (assuming you didn't eat poison), you either live or you die based on your decision.
If you don't get anything out of a relationship that you believe you are having with a supernatural being, is it really a relationship?
As far as what we want from the relationship, I think that it's pretty safe to say that what most people want is an enhanced mental state of peace, equanimity and reduction of undesirable animal urges, along with a ticket to immortality at a nice address in the afterlife.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
Re: Figuring Out Religion
I partially agree with you on this. I say partially because I do want those things from being in a relationship with God. I however respectfully disagree due to this sounding then too much like a business transaction. It makes it sound like I'm friends with the stinky kid down the street only because he has a Nintendo system. Ideally it should be that I just really like the guy, I enjoy sharing experiences with him, and he just happens to have a Nintendo as a perk. You can boil down I think any relationship into it's particular parts that you desire, but this is missing the seeing of the forest for the trees then.MediumTex wrote:Wouldn't it be more precise to say that we want the things that we believe will come from a relationship with God?Greg wrote:Regarding capitalization, I tend to capitalizes places. I consider Heaven and Hell to both be places, that's all.Fred wrote: So it all boils down to you either have a personal relationship with God or you go to hell (why did you capitalize hell, btw)?
A hard choice, isn't it? God loves us and gives us free will so we can either choose to love him back or go to hell. You really have to think about that one.
Personally, I think you are living in a very dark place if that's what you believe but I'm sure Mountaineer will chime in and set us all straight about how wrong our thinking is.
And to your point, again I think we're mixing apples and oranges. It's either you want a relationship with God or you don't. Depending on your decision, God will honor your request and send you where you want to go. This may seem petty but I think it is good to highlight this difference in thinking. Someone doesn't make the decision to go to Hell. They make the decision to not have a relationship with God which then leads to going to Hell.
Same with food. The decision isn't to either eat or die. The decision is to eat or not eat. From that (assuming you didn't eat poison), you either live or you die based on your decision.
If you don't get anything out of a relationship that you believe you are having with a supernatural being, is it really a relationship?
As far as what we want from the relationship, I think that it's pretty safe to say that what most people want is an enhanced mental state of peace, equanimity and reduction of undesirable animal urges, along with a ticket to immortality at a nice address in the afterlife.
Background: Mechanical Engineering, Robotics, Control Systems, CAD Modeling, Machining, Wearable Exoskeletons, Applied Physiology, Drawing (Pencil/Charcoal), Drums, Guitar/Bass, Piano, Flute
"you are not disabled by your disabilities but rather, abled by your abilities." -Oscar Pistorius
"you are not disabled by your disabilities but rather, abled by your abilities." -Oscar Pistorius
Re: Figuring Out Religion
Looks pretty good to me. Looks to broaden however the idea of the personal god for general spirituality however. Not a bad thing, just become less defined then and could meet various religions then (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc.). It also makes Jesus seem more of a guru than anything else so I believe it lessens his standing in my eyes.MediumTex wrote: Maybe try it like this:
I agree that what Jesus is recorded as having referred to as the Kingdom of God may be cultivated is within us. Through meditation and reflection on this topic relationship with God, we can have this internal spiritual experience him in our hearts on Earth. We then live in the present and enjoy the new sense of understanding and awareness relationship and how it changes as we grow older to ideally become more beautiful. I also agree with you that other belief systems attempt to work on the same lines for having this experience Kingdom of God. It is very difficult to discern which one is correct without a lot of effort on our part (and effort from God as well), it's one of the reasons I like studying comparative philosophy and cultural belief systems about the meaning of life religions so that I am making an educated decision based on the information I'm taking in versus whatever culture I grew up in.
How's that?
Also to Fred, I missed capitalizing "Earth". That was a inconsistency on my part and I apologize for it.
Background: Mechanical Engineering, Robotics, Control Systems, CAD Modeling, Machining, Wearable Exoskeletons, Applied Physiology, Drawing (Pencil/Charcoal), Drums, Guitar/Bass, Piano, Flute
"you are not disabled by your disabilities but rather, abled by your abilities." -Oscar Pistorius
"you are not disabled by your disabilities but rather, abled by your abilities." -Oscar Pistorius
Re: Figuring Out Religion
I have a theory that Machine Ghost actually keeps on leaving us because he keeps reaching Moksha/Nirvana due to the supplements but it hasn't quite set in yet. Like a tv that has a screen that flickers or an airplane that keeps bouncing and almosttt gets off the ground fully and flies.Desert wrote: Isn't it even worse than that? Every human will die (with the possible exception of MG, because supplements). It's almost like God views physical death differently than we do.
Background: Mechanical Engineering, Robotics, Control Systems, CAD Modeling, Machining, Wearable Exoskeletons, Applied Physiology, Drawing (Pencil/Charcoal), Drums, Guitar/Bass, Piano, Flute
"you are not disabled by your disabilities but rather, abled by your abilities." -Oscar Pistorius
"you are not disabled by your disabilities but rather, abled by your abilities." -Oscar Pistorius