Figuring Out Religion

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Jack Jones
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Jack Jones »

Desert wrote: Anyway, the dried dung reference is interesting.  Statements in ancient writings can really be confusing without the context.  (Not that I am providing any correct context here, I'm just thinking that "dried dung" has a negative connotation to most of us, but it may well be meant to convey something very positive here.)
Yeah, very interesting! Another thing I've learned is that there is no "correct context" for these cases. They're written in a way that intentionally foils attempts analyze them. From wikipedia (Koan):
This principle accords with the spiritual source, tallies with the mysterious meaning, destroys birth-and-death, and transcends the passions. It cannot be understood by logic; it cannot be transmitted in words; it cannot be explained in writing; it cannot be measured by reason. It is like the poisoned drum that kills all who hear it, or like a great fire that consumes all who come near it.
Desert wrote: Do you still "practice" buddhism these days?
I sit and meditate when I feel like it (which has been maybe once a week lately). I haven't been doing much reading lately either. My wife and I just had our first child.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Fred »

Maddy wrote:
Fred wrote: To the believers here I would ask has God ever answered your prayers? I mean, really? If you say you aren't supposed to expect him to answer your prayers I would say what is the point then and also point out that Jesus said, "All things whatsoever you desire when you pray, believe that you receive them and you shall have them". . .  In other words all the usual ridiculous nonsense. The bottom line was nobody really believed that God was listening and was going to do a damn thing about this. This was just a game that Christians play. . .
Yet many of the people who dismiss prayer as "just another game Christians play" find a great deal of truth in the concept that we create the box we live in and that our manner of thinking can, in a very real sense, change our material circumstances.  Viewed in this light, Yeshua's affirmation that "All things whatsoever you desire when you pray, believe that you receive them and you shall have them" takes on a whole new meaning.

So perhaps it's not the metaphysical relationship between belief, affirmation and reality that should be questioned, but rather the interpretation of the mainstream evangelicals who, once again, have managed to subvert the meaning of an far-reaching esoteric truth to suit their superficial, cookbook-style view of reality.
I have no idea what you are trying to say. I'm sure that all the Christian here could provide some links about the theology of prayer but who really gives much of a shit about that? If you are a Christian and you pray to God then what is your experience with answered prayer? If you receive an urgent prayer request to pray from some person who is suffering do you pray and do u really think God is listening and will answer? I don't give a shit what some theologian or early church father said about it. What do u have to say about it as believer?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Fred wrote:
Maddy wrote:
Fred wrote: To the believers here I would ask has God ever answered your prayers? I mean, really? If you say you aren't supposed to expect him to answer your prayers I would say what is the point then and also point out that Jesus said, "All things whatsoever you desire when you pray, believe that you receive them and you shall have them". . .  In other words all the usual ridiculous nonsense. The bottom line was nobody really believed that God was listening and was going to do a damn thing about this. This was just a game that Christians play. . .
Yet many of the people who dismiss prayer as "just another game Christians play" find a great deal of truth in the concept that we create the box we live in and that our manner of thinking can, in a very real sense, change our material circumstances.  Viewed in this light, Yeshua's affirmation that "All things whatsoever you desire when you pray, believe that you receive them and you shall have them" takes on a whole new meaning.

So perhaps it's not the metaphysical relationship between belief, affirmation and reality that should be questioned, but rather the interpretation of the mainstream evangelicals who, once again, have managed to subvert the meaning of an far-reaching esoteric truth to suit their superficial, cookbook-style view of reality.
I have no idea what you are trying to say. I'm sure that all the Christian here could provide some links about the theology of prayer but who really gives much of a shit about that? If you are a Christian and you pray to God then what is your experience with answered prayer? If you receive an urgent prayer request to pray from some person who is suffering do you pray and do u really think God is listening and will answer? I don't give a shit what some theologian or early church father said about it. What do u have to say about it as believer?
Fred,

I'd say that type of prayer is trying to manipulate God.  A key phrase is "thy will be done".  I've heard far too many of the former type and much fewer of the latter.  Once more, it boils down to "who is going to be God?" - is the person praying willing to accept whatever and whenever answer God wishes to give and whether or not they can understand it, or are they going to get pissed at God when the person they are praying does not do what the praying person wants, e.g. dies? 

... M
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote: This is a podcast on objective truth vs. subjective experience (feelings).  It may particularly appeal to Medium Tex, Pointedstick, Moda, and Machine Ghost.  The hosts of the podcast do a much better job of explaining the issue than I can.  They also get into what happens when one bases his source of comfort, identity, and security on himself.  I think it will be worth the 27 minutes or so of your time to listen, even for the atheists and agnostics, as it provides some interesting concepts to ponder.
This seems like another attack on the LiberalCultFreaks that conservatives are obsessed with (for good reason).
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote:
Fred wrote:
Maddy wrote: Yet many of the people who dismiss prayer as "just another game Christians play" find a great deal of truth in the concept that we create the box we live in and that our manner of thinking can, in a very real sense, change our material circumstances.  Viewed in this light, Yeshua's affirmation that "All things whatsoever you desire when you pray, believe that you receive them and you shall have them" takes on a whole new meaning.

So perhaps it's not the metaphysical relationship between belief, affirmation and reality that should be questioned, but rather the interpretation of the mainstream evangelicals who, once again, have managed to subvert the meaning of an far-reaching esoteric truth to suit their superficial, cookbook-style view of reality.
I have no idea what you are trying to say. I'm sure that all the Christian here could provide some links about the theology of prayer but who really gives much of a shit about that? If you are a Christian and you pray to God then what is your experience with answered prayer? If you receive an urgent prayer request to pray from some person who is suffering do you pray and do u really think God is listening and will answer? I don't give a shit what some theologian or early church father said about it. What do u have to say about it as believer?
Fred,

I'd say that type of prayer is trying to manipulate God.  A key phrase is "thy will be done".  I've heard far too many of the former type and much fewer of the latter.  Once more, it boils down to "who is going to be God?" - is the person praying willing to accept whatever and whenever answer God wishes to give and whether or not they can understand it, or are they going to get pissed at God when the person they are praying does not do what the praying person wants, e.g. dies? 

... M
It sounds to me that you are reading into my post that God didn't answer my prayer for someone not to die and now I am pissed at God. It doesn't surprise me at all that you would think that. My impression of you is that you are the type of person who would have all kinds of explanations to offer Job about the error of his ways. The fact is that in my own grief situation I never said any such prayer and was relieved when the person finally died.

My example was a prayer request for a child scalded with grease. My observation was that the believers didn't really believe that God would answer their prayers for him to have compassion on the child and since they had to put out an urgent request for as many people as possible to pray I had to question if they even thought he was listening.

Personally, if this is really what God is like I have to agree with the person who concluded that the bastard doesn't exist. If I die and find out there is a God I have to think he will agree.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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There's been some alleged studies showing that group praying "works", but not because they're calling upon a "God", but because they're directing positive energy to the person in need.  That seems more in line with actual reality to me than praying to a "God" and having it personally answer.  What arrogance to think everyone has a direct personal hotline to a diety!
Last edited by MachineGhost on Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Fred wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
Fred wrote: I have no idea what you are trying to say. I'm sure that all the Christian here could provide some links about the theology of prayer but who really gives much of a shit about that? If you are a Christian and you pray to God then what is your experience with answered prayer? If you receive an urgent prayer request to pray from some person who is suffering do you pray and do u really think God is listening and will answer? I don't give a shit what some theologian or early church father said about it. What do u have to say about it as believer?
Fred,

I'd say that type of prayer is trying to manipulate God.  A key phrase is "thy will be done".  I've heard far too many of the former type and much fewer of the latter.  Once more, it boils down to "who is going to be God?" - is the person praying willing to accept whatever and whenever answer God wishes to give and whether or not they can understand it, or are they going to get pissed at God when the person they are praying does not do what the praying person wants, e.g. dies? 

... M
It sounds to me that you are reading into my post that God didn't answer my prayer for someone not to die and now I am pissed at God. It doesn't surprise me at all that you would think that. My impression of you is that you are the type of person who would have all kinds of explanations to offer Job about the error of his ways. The fact is that in my own grief situation I never said any such prayer and was relieved when the person finally died.

My example was a prayer request for a child scalded with grease. My observation was that the believers didn't really believe that God would answer their prayers for him to have compassion on the child and since they had to put out an urgent request for as many people as possible to pray I had to question if they even thought he was listening.

Personally, if this is really what God is like I have to agree with the person who concluded that the bastard doesn't exist. If I die and find out there is a God I have to think he will agree.
Fred,

I'm very sorry you took my reply personally.  I thought you were asking a generic question about types of prayer, not a personal situation, and I answered accordingly.  For what it's worth, I am not a fan of the "just pray harder" crowd and I try not to "read in" to what people say.  Reason being, it is not about me; the "pray harder" crowd believes they have to do something to help God.  I believe God gives the gifts He chooses without my help - I try not to put myself on the same level as God. 

I am one to take statements at face value unless there are clear reasons not to; I do not assume people have hidden agendas.  I will believe others until they indicate my trust was not justified.  Life is much simpler that way, and far more peaceful.  I do not see shadows behind every door and suspect someone is there waiting to do me in.  ;)

... M
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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MachineGhost wrote:There's been some alleged studies showing that group praying "works", but not because they're calling upon a "God", but because they're directing positive energy to the person in need.  That seems more in line with actual reality to me than praying to a "God" and having it personally answer.  What arrogance to think everyone has a direct personal hotline to a diety!
Aren't you the fellow who decries "religious mysticism" and belief in anything but science, and now here you are talking about "directing positive energy"?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Xan wrote: Aren't you the fellow who decries "religious mysticism" and belief in anything but science, and now here you are talking about "directing positive energy"?
When did I ever say I believe in nothing but science?  "Religious mysticism" is twisting your mind into a pretzel with a bottomless pit of imaginary fabrications.  In contrast, it's rather easy to perform a scientific experiment involving "prayer" and its measurable (or non measurable) effects.

[img width=800]http://judgmentalobserver.files.wordpre ... aysc01.png[/img]
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Some thoughts on prayer, to go along with the Lord's Prayer - note the emphasis on "thy will be done" (not my will) in the Lord's Prayer - i.e. God is in charge, not me (ref: Mt 6:5-13):

The Lord's Prayer
Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name,
thy kingdom come,
thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those
who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom
and the power and the glory
forever and ever. Amen


... M

Prayer is not magic. Prayer is not a calculated means of prying blessings from a grudging God. Prayer is not a demonstration of piety or of one’s worthiness for God’s grace. Prayer is not spiritual currency that swells in value or power as it is multiplied.

Prayer is simply the heartfelt plea of the child of God seeking the help of God—who has already blessed, and will bless again, and who is eager to hear and answer every need expressed.  A “good” prayer, then, is obedience to the command of God to pray, and in the name of Jesus—that is, in basic trust that because of Jesus’ life, death, resurrection, and ongoing intercession, the prayer of a frail and fallen sinner will be heard and honored by the Creator Himself. Prayer works because God makes it work.

Prayer, then, is not more powerful when embellished with lofty language, extended with many words, or repeated with rising fervor. Neither is prayer more effective when offered by many. A thousand pious people or even ten thousand true believers all praying for the same thing has no greater impact on God’s willingness and eagerness to answer than a solitary prayer voiced in humble, obedient faith.

Prayers are, of course, quite rightly offered for all manner of needs and circumstances of those in the congregation or connected to the congregation. It’s good to pray for a niece facing a complicated pregnancy, a couple celebrating a new marriage, a young mother contending with aggressive cancer, and a widower mourning the death of his wife. But these prayers are not better because they are offered by the whole congregation or more readily heard because they came from the mouth of a pastor. And getting more Christians or more congregations in more places to pray for the same thing does not increase the likelihood that God will favorably respond to the petition. Christians pray for one another not to “leverage the power of prayer” but simply because they care about one another. We share one another’s joys and burdens, and in the sharing we inevitably voice those joys, needs, and sorrows to God for the sake of another. That’s what the church does. Christians seek the prayer of others not to enhance the likelihood of success but to be the body of Christ.

So, pray with fervor, and pray frequently—even for the same thing again and again.  The repetition does not increase the value of the prayer but it does fulfill the purpose of prayer—you know a need and you express that need to your Father.  And God hears it . . . every time.  And God answers it . . . every time—not because of you, but because of Jesus.



Emphasis in bold mine.  Edit to add link, mistakenly left out of original post:  http://www.cph.org/b-160-pray-for-me.aspx 
Last edited by Mountaineer on Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote: Some thoughts on prayer, to go along with the Lord's Prayer - note the emphasis on "thy will be done" (not my will) in the Lord's Prayer - i.e. God is in charge, not me (ref: Mt 6:5-13):
Don't see how you square your thinking about prayer with Jesus teaching on the subject. I'm thinking of the Canaanite lady who kept pestering Him to heal her daughter, I think it was, and he said he wasn't sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel so don't basically don't bother me lady. She kept pestering until he granted her request and then he said he hadn't found such faith in Israel (I could be confusing several Bible stories). There were several stories in the Gospels like that. The impression I got from those stories was that if God says no, keep trying, because you can change his mind and if you do he'll even commend you for it. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense but that's the way it seemed to me. If you keep saying, "If it be thy will" my impression was that he'd think you were a faithless wimp for quitting so easily.

That's just my impression and as I've said before I mostly just read the Bible when I was a Christian and didn't pay a lot of attention to what others had to say about it. So I'm probably wrong about a lot of the impressions I got. (Some sarcasm intended).
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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TennPaGa wrote: Found this exact essay here (minus the Lord's prayer opening). 

My belief is that it's good practice to credit the original author and include a link when reposting.
Oops!  I thought I had and I completely agree with you.  Must have cut it off when cutting and pasting.  I did not review my post.  Good catch.  Appologies to Dr. Joel Biermann.  I edited original post to include link.

... M
Last edited by Mountaineer on Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Fred wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Some thoughts on prayer, to go along with the Lord's Prayer - note the emphasis on "thy will be done" (not my will) in the Lord's Prayer - i.e. God is in charge, not me (ref: Mt 6:5-13):
Don't see how you square your thinking about prayer with Jesus teaching on the subject. I'm thinking of the Canaanite lady who kept pestering Him to heal her daughter, I think it was, and he said he wasn't sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel so don't basically don't bother me lady. She kept pestering until he granted her request and then he said he hadn't found such faith in Israel (I could be confusing several Bible stories). There were several stories in the Gospels like that. The impression I got from those stories was that if God says no, keep trying, because you can change his mind and if you do he'll even commend you for it. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense but that's the way it seemed to me. If you keep saying, "If it be thy will" my impression was that he'd think you were a faithless wimp for quitting so easily.

That's just my impression and as I've said before I mostly just read the Bible when I was a Christian and didn't pay a lot of attention to what others had to say about it. So I'm probably wrong about a lot of the impressions I got. (Some sarcasm intended).
Fred, Jesus was the person who told his disciples how to pray when they asked - Jesus is the one who said the Lord's Prayer; how can this prayer, a model or general pattern for prayer, not be a very important Jesus theological teaching about faith? 

Re. the Canaanite woman, my perception is the account is more about faith and believing that Jesus would grant her request (Gospel) than an emphasis on doing (Law).  It is in contrast to the accounts of Jesus repeatedly chiding His disciples for their lack of faith (Mt 8:26; 14:31; 17:20), another very important Jesus teaching.

Note from my study Bible:  MATTHEW—NOTE ON 15:21–28 This persistent Canaanite woman gains Jesus’ praise for believing that He will help her sick daughter. In time of need, we often either fail to pray with such determination or only ask hesitantly. Instead, we ought to “pray without ceasing” (1Th 5:17). Jesus hears all prayers offered in His name, and He will answer in His own time and way as is best for us. Therefore, we can pray with confidence.

Concordia Publishing House (2009-10-31). The Lutheran Study Bible (Kindle Locations 112206-112209). Concordia Publishing House. Kindle Edition.

... M
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Rio Jesus and Me

I’m staying at an AirBnB and the hostess has a plethora of gods sprinkled around to choose from.

[img width=600]http://i60.tinypic.com/mv20ed.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i61.tinypic.com/10rkfw4.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i60.tinypic.com/2iixumc.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i58.tinypic.com/143nsk3.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i58.tinypic.com/aes0vs.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i60.tinypic.com/jkemhk.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i57.tinypic.com/5xscis.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i60.tinypic.com/hv8bxg.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i57.tinypic.com/34y3a4p.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i60.tinypic.com/2djyl44.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i62.tinypic.com/sq1tzl.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i58.tinypic.com/2lm19pz.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i57.tinypic.com/65akwj.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i60.tinypic.com/642l3l.jpg[/img]

We are not worthy!

[img width=600]http://i57.tinypic.com/34nh7xx.jpg[/img]

Perhaps my Parisian AirBnB hostess is originally a native of Athens.
Not wanting to offend any god, she has taken Pascal's wager to the highest level and has filled her home with idols.

Acts 17:16 While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols.

I think Saul of Tarsus and John of Steinbeck (voce sotto) (hallowed be his name) handled this very tactfully by advocating 'To a god unknown'. A'gnostic.

23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

“I should have known,” he whispered. “I am the rain.” And yet he looked dully down the mountains of his body where the hills fell to an abyss. He felt the driving rain, and heard it whipping down, pattering on the ground. He saw his hills grow dark with moisture. Then a lancing pain shot through the heart of the world. “I am the land,” he said, “and I am the rain. The grass will grow out of me in a little while.”
And the storm thickened, and covered the world with darkness, and with the rush of waters.”

John Steinbeck, To a God Unknown


My encounter with Rio Jesus has shaken my faith in Mexican Catholicism.

As for me and my house, I have decided to put my money down next to the sight hound - because they are great, elegant dogs - and incorrigible thieves.

Rio Jesus just seems tacky compared to Anubis

I think Coffee will back me up on this.

Bala’am also seems nice.  Great jaguars in Maya Land.

As for the Scarab beetle, who would worship that?  I'm looking at you, Frugal.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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LOL!
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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I am currently reading a very interesting book, "Standing Firm - A Christian Response to Hostility and Persecution" by Jesse Yow, published 2015.  A paragraph on page 58 caught my attention:

Since sin involves self-interest and self-sovereignty over and against the lordship of Christ, actions that seem logical from a personal (i.e. selfish, narrow, and sinful) point of view will often be at perverse odds with actions that are logical from God's (i.e. selfless, larger, and holy) point of view.  This contrast shows up in how or where people seek personal validation and fulfillment and extends to how people respond to Christians or Christian ministry; for a simple example, expanding a Christian shelter for the homeless might be well received by those wishing to feed, shelter, and witness to the homeless in the name of God, but opposed by people with selfish interests who object to bringing "undesirables" into the neighborhood.  More seriously, people with belief systems (i.e. religions) that require them to establish their own self-worth and righteousness will typically gravitate toward one of two reactions when they learn of God's grace in Jesus Christ: either they embrace it with joy and relief or they utterly reject it because it threatens their own sovereignty.  Directly or indirectly, this lust lies beneath much of the hostility and persecutiion directed toward Christians today.

... M
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mark Leavy »

Me and Hell and the Mexican Catholic Virgins

I really do like Mexican Catholics.  They are sexy and smart and fun.  I keep trying to be one - but whenever we go to a dance together they tell me that it is my turn to dance with the broomstick.  Damn.  Again?

Obviously, this makes me wonder about my eternal soul.  If a 17 year old Catholic Mexican Virgin won’t love me, who will?

I had to think about this.

I know that me and Harry Browne and Ayn Rand and Mahatma Gandhi and Galileo and Isaac Newton and Pythagorus will all be hanging together in Heck.  OK, hell, Harry and I deserve it (and let's be honest, Isaac loved his demons) - but the thought of Pythagorus and Gandhi having to put up with my dumb math jokes and eternal torment just because they never knew about that Nazarene carpenter dude seems a bit unfair.  Admittedly, I’m a bit selfish and I am glad that they will be with me burning in heck forever,  but it does seem unfair to them.  I’ll get over it.  That's the way I am.

[img width=600]http://i61.tinypic.com/2ynjpg9.gif[/img]
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Maximizing Eternal Options

As many of you know (in the spirit of this thread) I have been earnestly searching for a non-Newtonian entity to guide my eternal future.

This is not as easy as it sounds.  Thank god, I’m doing the hard work for you.

Many of the great gods of history have offered promising remuneration.  But that would be shallow.  I’m not above shallow.

We’ve gone back and forth with this before.  I am especially fond of the Abrahamic god. A Chinese menu of rewards.  Select your prophet:  Favored people.  Post apocalyptic eternal life on an earthly paradise.  Non-Newtonian frolicking in an afterworld (with just a small chance of eternal torment), Multiple virgins in exchange for a single act of machoism.

That’s quite a carte.

In this day and age - you have to go with Yahweh.  He’s the biggest franchise in town.

And as I’ve explained previously, in spite of the post birth dick shortening, I’ve decided to go with the Christ flavor of Abrahamic deism.

But… as attractive as these once-in-a-lifetime Yahweh/Christ deals are, non of them have really been working for me.  Until now.  The pope appeared to me in a vision (of sorts) last night and I’ve finally found a version of Christianity that addresses my short attention span.

[img width=600]http://i61.tinypic.com/1zg9vyd.jpg[/img]

I am a notoriously big talker (and muy macho), but the truth is that I am, (ahem) just averagely endowed.

It is clear to me that the Christ flavored and Pope Approved religion of New Guinea contains just the right level of animism for my tastes.  A Koteka offers the best risk vs. reward for my personal salvation.

[img width=600]http://i60.tinypic.com/2l92io1.jpg[/img]

Disclaimer: I am not a Shaman or a Bishop or a Cannibal.  But I’m willing to try.  These are only my personal opinions and I have no direct knowledge of what a penis sheath will do to your afterlife.  Or currentlife.  Or souplife.
Fred
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Fred »

Mountaineer wrote:
Fred wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Some thoughts on prayer, to go along with the Lord's Prayer - note the emphasis on "thy will be done" (not my will) in the Lord's Prayer - i.e. God is in charge, not me (ref: Mt 6:5-13):
Don't see how you square your thinking about prayer with Jesus teaching on the subject. I'm thinking of the Canaanite lady who kept pestering Him to heal her daughter, I think it was, and he said he wasn't sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel so don't basically don't bother me lady. She kept pestering until he granted her request and then he said he hadn't found such faith in Israel (I could be confusing several Bible stories). There were several stories in the Gospels like that. The impression I got from those stories was that if God says no, keep trying, because you can change his mind and if you do he'll even commend you for it. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense but that's the way it seemed to me. If you keep saying, "If it be thy will" my impression was that he'd think you were a faithless wimp for quitting so easily.

That's just my impression and as I've said before I mostly just read the Bible when I was a Christian and didn't pay a lot of attention to what others had to say about it. So I'm probably wrong about a lot of the impressions I got. (Some sarcasm intended).
Fred, Jesus was the person who told his disciples how to pray when they asked - Jesus is the one who said the Lord's Prayer; how can this prayer, a model or general pattern for prayer, not be a very important Jesus theological teaching about faith? 

Re. the Canaanite woman, my perception is the account is more about faith and believing that Jesus would grant her request (Gospel) than an emphasis on doing (Law).  It is in contrast to the accounts of Jesus repeatedly chiding His disciples for their lack of faith (Mt 8:26; 14:31; 17:20), another very important Jesus teaching.

Note from my study Bible:  MATTHEW—NOTE ON 15:21–28 This persistent Canaanite woman gains Jesus’ praise for believing that He will help her sick daughter. In time of need, we often either fail to pray with such determination or only ask hesitantly. Instead, we ought to “pray without ceasing” (1Th 5:17). Jesus hears all prayers offered in His name, and He will answer in His own time and way as is best for us. Therefore, we can pray with confidence.

Concordia Publishing House (2009-10-31). The Lutheran Study Bible (Kindle Locations 112206-112209). Concordia Publishing House. Kindle Edition.

... M
Bottom line, Mountaineer. I don't give a crap about what the Lutheran Study Bible has to say about God answering prayer. Does God answer your prayers? I think that is the only testimony that most people think really matters.
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Mountaineer
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Fred wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
Fred wrote: Don't see how you square your thinking about prayer with Jesus teaching on the subject. I'm thinking of the Canaanite lady who kept pestering Him to heal her daughter, I think it was, and he said he wasn't sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel so don't basically don't bother me lady. She kept pestering until he granted her request and then he said he hadn't found such faith in Israel (I could be confusing several Bible stories). There were several stories in the Gospels like that. The impression I got from those stories was that if God says no, keep trying, because you can change his mind and if you do he'll even commend you for it. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense but that's the way it seemed to me. If you keep saying, "If it be thy will" my impression was that he'd think you were a faithless wimp for quitting so easily.

That's just my impression and as I've said before I mostly just read the Bible when I was a Christian and didn't pay a lot of attention to what others had to say about it. So I'm probably wrong about a lot of the impressions I got. (Some sarcasm intended).
Fred, Jesus was the person who told his disciples how to pray when they asked - Jesus is the one who said the Lord's Prayer; how can this prayer, a model or general pattern for prayer, not be a very important Jesus theological teaching about faith? 

Re. the Canaanite woman, my perception is the account is more about faith and believing that Jesus would grant her request (Gospel) than an emphasis on doing (Law).  It is in contrast to the accounts of Jesus repeatedly chiding His disciples for their lack of faith (Mt 8:26; 14:31; 17:20), another very important Jesus teaching.

Note from my study Bible:  MATTHEW—NOTE ON 15:21–28 This persistent Canaanite woman gains Jesus’ praise for believing that He will help her sick daughter. In time of need, we often either fail to pray with such determination or only ask hesitantly. Instead, we ought to “pray without ceasing” (1Th 5:17). Jesus hears all prayers offered in His name, and He will answer in His own time and way as is best for us. Therefore, we can pray with confidence.

Concordia Publishing House (2009-10-31). The Lutheran Study Bible (Kindle Locations 112206-112209). Concordia Publishing House. Kindle Edition.

... M
Bottom line, Mountaineer. I don't give a crap about what the Lutheran Study Bible has to say about God answering prayer. Does God answer your prayers? I think that is the only testimony that most people think really matters.
Some material from tonight's Bible class on the second petition of the Lord's Prayer:

The truth is that everyone has a king and that there are only two kingdoms in which we live: either the kingdom of the devil or the kingdom of God.  The kingdom of the devil is a kingdom of darkness.  It is the kingdom of this world, a kingdom ruled by the Father of Lies and his Lie that we can ge gods in place of God.  It is a kingdom in which everyone serves themselves, where every appetite is indulged, where everyone is like God.  It's end is death and destruction and many can sense that intuitively even if they try to avoid thinking about it.  The devil turns out to be no king at all.  God is lord even of the devil.  Hell is not the kingdom of the devil.  Hell is the end and outcome of the devil's kingdom.  It is ruled over by God in his wrath. 

The kingdom of God has already come in the death and resurrection of Jesus.  God has raised up His royal banner on the tree of the cross, jammed it in the earth and cried out "it is finished."

Fred, to answer your question, yes; and I pray that God's will be done for you.  Jesus died for everyone, even you and others who apparently do not give a crap about much, or do give a crap enough to mock God.  May God crack open the hardness of your hearts and let in the light before you lay in eternal darkness under a hard cold stone where there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Blessings.

... M
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mark Leavy »

Desert wrote: Mark,

After hours of pondering your situation, I'm afraid that I agree that Mexican-style Catholicism is probably not for you.  From the photos of the gods in your room, and given your obvious debaucherous proclivities, I'd be tempted to go with the topless god with the banjo (if I were you; sadly, I am not, and am therefore not wandering the dusty streets of Mexico eating $.50 tacos from a filthy street vendor). 

By the way, where in Mexico are you?  I'll be down there in a couple weeks.  It's a small place, I might run into you there.  Maybe we could hit a mass or two.
Thanks Desert.  I'm in France.  The food seems okay.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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This seems up you guys alley:

The Mysterious Origins of Man (presented by Charlton Heston!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Yp0dCqfpg
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by MachineGhost »

They're opening a can of worms here...  because once you start questioning basic premises, anything and everything can be considered truth.  Where will you draw the line?
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
Fred
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Fred »

MachineGhost wrote:
They're opening a can of worms here...  because once you start questioning basic premises, anything and everything can be considered truth.  Where will you draw the line?
I'm guessing that Mr. Swinburne was not at all questioning basic premises when he performed this experiment. Had he entered his figures into Baye's Theorem and the resurrection came out as being improbable I'm willing to bet we would have never heard about it and he would have kept on believing any way. That's just the way the religious mind works. I know because I once had one.
Last edited by Fred on Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

Interesting post from another forum:

... M


Re: Roman Catholic Synod on the Family, October 4-25, 2015

A couple of interventions by lay auditors--both women--at the Synod have been striking. One I have in its original English text:

Intervento della Dott.ssa Anca-Maria CERNEA, Medico presso il Centro di Diagnosi e Trattamenti Victor-Babes e Presidente dell'Associazione dei Medici cattolici di Bucarest (Romania)

Your Holiness, Synod Fathers, Brothers and Sisters,

I represent the Association of Catholic Doctors from Bucharest.

I am from the Romanian Greek Catholic Church.

My father was a Christian political leader, who was imprisoned by the communists for 17 years. My parents were engaged to marry, but their wedding took place 17 years later.

My mother waited all those years for my father, although she didn’t even know if he was still alive. They have been heroically faithful to God and to their engagement.

Their example shows that God’s grace can overcame terrible social circumstances and material poverty.

We, as Catholic doctors, defending life and family, can see this is, first of all, a spiritual battle.

Material poverty and consumerism are not the primary cause of the family crisis.

The primary cause of the sexual and cultural revolution is ideological.

Our Lady of Fatima has said that Russia’s errors would spread all over the world.

It was first done under a violent form, classical Marxism, by killing tens of millions.

Now it’s being done mostly by cultural Marxism. There is continuity from Lenin’s sex revolution, through Gramsci and the Frankfurt school, to the current-day gay-rights and gender ideology.

Classical Marxism pretended to redesign society, through violent take-over of property.

Now the revolution goes deeper; it pretends to redefine family, sex identity and human nature.

This ideology calls itself progressive. But it is nothing else than the ancient serpent’s offer, for man to take control, to replace God, to arrange salvation here, in this world.

It’s an error of religious nature, it’s Gnosticism.

It’s the task of the shepherds to recognize it, and warn the flock against this danger.

“Seek ye thereforefirst the Kingdom of God, and His justice, and all these things shall be added unto you.”

The Church’s mission is to save souls. Evil, in this world, comes from sin. Not from income disparity or “climate change”.

The solution is: Evangelization. Conversion.

Not an ever increasing government control. Not a world government. These are nowadays the main agents imposing cultural Marxism to our nations, under the form of population control, reproductive health, gay rights, gender education, and so on.

What the world needs nowadays is not limitation of freedom, but real freedom, liberation from sin. Salvation.

Our Church was suppressed by the soviet occupation. But none of our 12 bishops betrayed their communion with the Holy Father. Our Church survived thanks to our bishops’ determination and example in resisting prisons and terror.

Our bishops asked the community not to follow the world. Not to cooperate with the communists.

Now we need Rome to tell the world: “Repentof your sins and turn to God,for the Kingdom of Heaven is near”.

Not only us, the Catholic laity, but also many Christian Orthodox are anxiously praying for this Synod. Because, as they say, if the Catholic Church gives in to the spirit of this world, it is going to be very difficult for all the other Christians to resist it.


[01738-EN.01] [Original text: English]


Peace,
Michael
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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