Figuring Out Religion

[seajay]

God the creator and put into perspective https://youtu.be/M4M6wlBjU38 one lifeform on a tiny spec (our solar system) in a tiny branch of the Milky way being his son ... IMO is a man made creation, where millions have died in arguments about belief/interpretation. Offset by the good that places of gathering can provide - community, sense of belonging, help from/giving help to others that might otherwise not be known to you.

I was born into Catholicism but have matured into being indifferent. My Muslim neighbours are equally as happy to say Happy Christmas as I am to say Eid Mubarak (Happy Eid) .. despite the PC crew suggesting we should both be saying happy holidays or suchlike.

[murphy_p_t]

Isn't the phrase "happy holidays" the perfect embodiment of the religious indifferentism / apostasy which you embrace?

[Mountaineer]

God the creator and put into perspective https://youtu.be/M4M6wlBjU38 one lifeform on a tiny spec (our solar system) in a tiny branch of the Milky way being his son ... IMO is a man made creation, where millions have died in arguments about belief/interpretation. Offset by the good that places of gathering can provide - community, sense of belonging, help from/giving help to others that might otherwise not be known to you.

I was born into Catholicism but have matured into being indifferent. My Muslim neighbours are equally as happy to say Happy Christmas as I am to say Eid Mubarak (Happy Eid) .. despite the PC crew suggesting we should both be saying happy holidays or suchlike.

seajay, It appears you were influenced by a version Christianity that emphasized works, "be like Jesus", i.e. "what would Jesus do?", that emphasizes ethics as the means to salvation; that view is common to all religions, perhaps like your Muslim neighbors were taught. It is unfortunate that you were not exposed to an interpretation of Scripture that taught Jesus is our Savior, i.e. what He did for us sinners who are dead in our sins. Doing evil "in the name of God" is not consistent with Scripture (1 Peter 3:15). Without God and a true understanding of His Word, man has done, does, and will likely do horrible things to our fellow man. Man can do absolutely nothing to save himself or participate in his being saved. I'm sorry you were steeped in that view of "ethical behavior required for salvation" (if my understanding of what you said is correct).

You might like this discussion about our little piece of the universe - Answering Arguments against Christianity: Science Has Disproven the Existence of God – Dr. John Warwick Montgomery, 12/26/21. https://issuesetc.org/2021/12/26/3601-a ... -12-26-21/

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your comments. Blessings on this second day of Christmas.

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[Mark Leavy]

Happy Boxing Day to all!

This is a day well spent in fox hunting or betting on the horses at the tracks.

BoxingDayHunt.jpeg (25.85 KiB) Viewed 9480 times

And, of course, make sure to leave a box of leftovers for the servants before heading out with the horses.

Good luck to all!

[Mark Leavy]

I was a mere lad when some Californian (torturer of women) dude invented Kwanzaa. But a lucky man I was to be there when history was born after the Watts riots.

When I think of all of the transparently thin also ran holidays that attempt to hitch a free ride on the glory of the Solstice Debauchery, I think Kwanzaa is my favorite. It had a slow start, but the debauchery has been rising to the occasion in recent years. It's the strong horse to bet on.

No one expects the toaster.

Kwanzaa.jpeg (12.12 KiB) Viewed 9474 times

[Mountaineer]

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Christmas cannot be separated from the birth of Jesus Christ. The national holiday is about Christ's birth no matter what the forces of political correctness say. Yes, its fine for Jews to celebrate Hanukkah, but the national holiday is Christmas. In our present time there are those among us who want to deny that Christianity is a force for good in the world. Indeed, some have called Christianity a “White Supremacist” religion, which is to say that it is a religion that oppresses others. I suspect that this irrational and uninformed understanding of Christianity will only become more and more twisted as time goes on.

Christianity is unique among the religions of the world and that is certainly part of the reason for the rejection of Christianity by so many. In reality there are only three religions that exist in the world.

There are religions that are based on keeping the law in order to make God happy with you. (Buddhism, Islam, Mormonism, Hinduism, Janism, Animistic religions, etc.)

It is uniquely Christianity that informs us that keeping the law just won't work because no one can do it. It simply isn't possible to “un-sin” once we've committed a sin and just one sin makes us unholy and unfit to be in the presence of a holy and righteous God. What's more, sin isn't merely what we do or fail to do, it is the natural condition of human kind. We are, by nature, sinful and unclean. This is why we can't keep the law and why we need a Savior, not merely a good example to follow. Christianity simply cannot exist without Christ!

God understood that unless He took unilateral action to redeem his fallen creatures that they would be lost and condemned forever. You see, God cannot ignore sin. He can’t “wink” at sin and pretend it doesn't exist because that would violate His own nature since He is Holy and Just. Sin needs a payment rendered for it. Since mankind was unable to render that payment without spending eternity in hell, God sent His only eternal Son who actually was Holy to suffer the punishment that we had coming to us for our sins. His Son is Jesus, the Christ of God. It was for this purpose of redeeming His creatures that Christ suffered as a human and as a sinless man/God, only His sacrifice on the cross was of such value that it rendered adequate payment for sin for us all. Scripture tells us that in some way unseen by human eyes, Christ suffered the punishment of eternal life in hell for all of humanity while He hung of Golgotha's cross. He went to hell for us!

In this way, out of love for His creatures, God saved us from what we deserved and grants to all whose faith rests in Christ's sinlessness and His rendered payment for sin as sufficient to cancel our debt to God and once again, we are made His holy and eternal children forever. So, religions of the law cannot give you what you need. You cannot earn your way into heaven. Christ has already accomplished that for us.

I said there are three religions in the world. There is also the religion of atheism. I call it a religion because it is also based on faith. It is based on faith that despite the intricate, inter-balanced, interdependent creation all around us, an atheist must have faith that it all just kind of fell into place by some cosmic accident. Atheism rejects any notion of a Creator, it rejects any thinking about an afterlife, and it assumes that this world and this momentary life is all there is. When you die you simply become manure for whatever comes next on the evolutionary journey. One must wonder why the suicide rate among atheists isn't much higher than it already is? From an atheist's point of view about the best that can be said of life is that you have a hope to die leaving the world a bit better than when you showed up. Good luck with that! For Atheists, Christmas is simply a waste of time, energy, and money.

So, Christmas is all about Christ. Christmas is all about life. Christmas is God coming to earth to save us all from ourselves. With that understanding, how can Christians possibly say anything other than have a blessed and merry Christmas!

Rev. Richard A. Bolland

http://www.lutherquest.org/cgi-bin/discus40/discus.cgi

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[Hal]

Well this link arrived in my inbox.

Never heard of this person before, and not even sure what an Arch-Bishop does, but it makes for an interesting read.
https://www.thelibertybeacon.com/archbi ... an-people/

[Mountaineer]

"Were I to choose an auspicious image for the new millenium (RB N.B.: even the new year), I would choose that one: the sudden agile leap of the poet-philosopher who raises himself above the weight of the world, showing that with all his gravity he has the secret of lightness, and that what many consider to be the vitality of the times - noisy, aggressive, revving and roaring - belongs to the realm of death, like a cemetery for rusty old cars." Italo Calvino.

The New Year, rededicated daily to Christ, is a continuous New Life because of His grace, mercy and salvation for us. Rejoice and be glad in it! (Randy Bosch)

[murphy_p_t]

Today is The Epiphany of the Lord. Meaning manifestation. To the Magi, that is to the gentiles.

There was a question previously about the prophecies which foretold the Christ. From today's mass in the Roman missal...In today's epistle, taken from Isaias chapter 60, we read that they will come bringing gold and frankincense and showing forth praise of the Lord. Following on that, is the famous passage from Matthew chapter 2 of the three wise men visiting the Lord , following His star, bearing gifts of gold and frankincense. The magi, representing the gentile Nations, adore the Christ child.

Earlier in the same passage, we read that King Herod, inquires of the chief priests and scribes of where the Messiah shall be born. They inform him that it is Bethlehem of Juda, as foretold in the Old testament.

[Xan]

Today is The Epiphany of the Lord. Meaning manifestation. To the Magi, that is to the gentiles.

There was a question previously about the prophecies which foretold the Christ. From today's mass in the Roman missal...In today's epistle, taken from Isaias chapter 60, we read that they will come bringing gold and frankincense and showing forth praise of the Lord. Following on that, is the famous passage from Matthew chapter 2 of the three wise men visiting the Lord , following His star, bearing gifts of gold and frankincense. The magi, representing the gentile Nations, adore the Christ child.

Earlier in the same passage, we read that King Herod, inquires of the chief priests and scribes of where the Messiah shall be born. They inform him that it is Bethlehem of Juda, as foretold in the Old testament.

Really what we celebrate today is that Jesus is the light of the whole world, including the Gentiles. Epiphany was the original gift-giving occasion. Happy Epiphany!

[vnatale]

Tonight I read this from Martin Luther for the first time.

It seems that this points out an inconsistency between the beliefs of the Christian "right" who seem to hold in pure disdain almost anything done by the government?

http://www.lutherdansk.dk/Martin%20Luth ... 020306.htm


These three ways of dealing, then, are a masterly keeping of the commandments not to presume upon the future nor to put trust in any man or in self, but to depend solely on God. In this way everything is paid in cash and the word of James is applied, “If God will, so be it.” In this way we deal with people as with those who may fail and are unreliable; we give our money without profit and take the risk that what we lend may be lost.

But here someone will say: “Who then can be saved and where shall we find Christians? Nay, in this way there would be no trade in the world; everyone would have his property taken or borrowed and the door would be thrown open for the idle gluttons, of whom the world is full, to take everything with their lying and cheating.” I reply: I have already said that Christians are rare in the world; therefore the world needs a strict, hard temporal government that will compel and constrain the wicked not to steal and rob and to return what they borrow, even though a Christian ought not demand it, or even hope to get it back. This is necessary in order that the world may not become a desert, peace may not perish, and trade and society may not be utterly destroyed: all which would happen if we were to rule the world according to the Gospel and not drive and compel the wicked, by laws and the use of force, to do and suffer what is right. We must, therefore, keep the roads open, preserve peace in the towns, and enforce law in the land, and let the sword hew brisky and boldly against the transgressors, as Paul teaches in Romans 13:4. For it is God’s will that those who are not Christians shall be held in check and kept from doing wrong, at least with impunity. Let no one think that the world can be ruled without blood; the sword of the ruler must be red and bloody; for the world will and must be evil, and the sword is God’s rod and vengeance upon it.

[Mountaineer]

This article may be of interest in addressing Vinny's comments above. I highlighted a couple of key thoughts. Probably a couple of the current "government acting against God's Word" concerns Roe vs. Wade (condoning murder) and endorsement of LGBTQ+ (sexual morality).

Genius and Courage
January 5, 2015 / Letter From the President, The Magazine / By Matthew Harrison /
Late in 1821, Rev. Frederick Schaeffer presided over the cornerstone laying of a new building for the Evangelical Lutheran Church of St. Matthew* in New York City. Afterward, he sent his homily to James Madison, the “Father of the U.S. Constitution,” and chief author of the Bill of Rights. Pastor Schaeffer’s address was rather strongly Lutheran, in spite of the general weakness of American Lutheranism prior to 1840. Madison replied:

Montpellier, Dec. 3rd ,1821

Revd Sir,–I have received, with your letter of November 19th, the copy of your address at the ceremonial of laying the corner-stone of St Matthew’s Church in New York.

It is a pleasing and persuasive example of pious zeal, united with pure benevolence and of a cordial attachment to a particular creed, untinctured with sectarian illiberality. It illustrates the excellence of a system which, by a due distinction, to which the genius and courage of Luther led the way, between what is due to Caesar and what is due God, best promotes the discharge of both obligations. The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity.

In return for your kind sentiments, I tender assurances of my esteem and my best wishes.
James Madison

Schaeffer had struck several notes that resonated with Madison, so much so that the aging former president and constitutional patriarch noted “a due distinction, to which the genius and courage of Luther led the way, between what is due to Caesar and what is due God, best promotes the discharge of both obligations.” Wow. The drafter of the Bill of Rights, including the First Amendment (“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”), wrote, “The genius and courage of Luther led the way.”

What is the “due distinction” “between what is due to Caesar and what is due to God”? This is a reference to Luther’s two kingdoms doctrine. Historic, pre-Reformation Catholicism perpetuated the myth of the “Donation of Constantine”–that the Emperor Constantine (ca. A.D. 317) had given authority to the papacy to rule the Roman Empire, and that the Church was supposedly given the divine right and authority to govern both itself and the world. This was used to justify all sorts of mischief through the centuries following, where the Church meddled in governmental affairs and vice versa.

A second approach emerged at the time of the Reformation among the so-called radical reformers. They asserted that society should be ruled only by the Bible. This led to either a radical withdrawal from participation in civil society (e.g., the Amish), or to the view that a “Christian government” is needed to institute biblical principles upon society (e.g., the Puritans and their legacy). The views of both the Roman Catholic as well as the radical reformers resulted in a “mixing the kingdoms.”

Luther’s view, however, is unique. In view of texts like “The truth shall make you free” (John 8:32) and “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s” (Matt. 22:21), Luther asserted that the conscience, the religious convictions of the individual Christian, belong to God and not the government. The Bible teaches two distinct realms.

The “right hand” realm or kingdom is that of the Church. In this kingdom there is to be no coercion, no force, no corporal punishment. It is a kingdom ruled solely by the Word of God in service to the Gospel of Christ. “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36). It is a kingdom whose glory is hidden in weakness, small numbers, persecution, reviling, etc. It makes no sense to reason whatsoever–things like “the resurrection of the body,” “baptismal regeneration,” “the body and blood of Christ,” in the Lord’s Supper, etc.

The “left hand” kingdom is temporal government. This kingdom, too, is established by God (Rom. 13:1–7). It flows form the Fourth Commandment (“Honor thy father and mother”). This kingdom operates not by revelation, but by reason or natural law. The Gentiles, “when they do the things of the law, demonstrate that the law is written on their hearts” (Rom. 2:14) The governing authorities “do not bear the sword in vain” (Rom. 13:4). Temporal government is established by God for maintaining good order, peace, to thwart evil (by just war and other means), etc. When government forbids the Gospel, however, or commands us to act against a Christian conscience informed by the inerrant Word of God, then “we must obey God rather than men” (Acts 5:29).

When natural law or reason is functioning properly, it agrees with the Ten Commandments. In fact, the law “written on the heart” is the point of contact with the Law revealed in the Ten Commandments. That’s why the preaching of the Law hits home with people who don’t know Christ. God designed it that way as preparation for the Gospel! When it is commonly said that America was founded as a “Christian Nation,” that is only true in the sense that the overwhelming number of the founders were Christians, and that they recognized the benefit Christianity affords government.

Our founders recognized that “Christian morality” agreed with reason and natural law (law evident to any reasonable person). What was new in America was that there was no nationally established church or religion. But from the beginning, the national government was favorably oriented toward religion and acted to promote it. Even Jefferson (who moved from Deism to Unitarianism) went to church every Sunday of his presidency at Christian services held in the House Chambers! Offering government facilities today for services would be viewed by many secularists and courts as a gross violation of the “separation of church and state.” Yet, there are dozens of such examples of our founders recognizing the great blessing of religion. For the government to thwart religion–so far as it contributes to morality and peace (and this is why orthodox Islam is problematic)–is foolish and self-destructive.

As James Madison indicated to Pastor Schaeffer, our founders had a view of the relationship of church and state that was much closer to Luther than that of modern secularists. The Church serves the state by providing a moral, charitable and decent people. The state serves the Church by providing peace and order, a context in which religious ends may prosper. The state is not to legislate matters of religious conscience. The church is not to meddle in the affairs of the state, nor is it to expect the state to operate according to anything other than sound reason.

“Luther rendered greater services to mankind. . . . At present it is more extensively admitted than formerly that no religious or political institution can be salutary and prosperous, unless it is established on the principles for which he become the successful champion.”

I agree with Pastor Schaeffer . . . and James Madison.
... Matthew Harrison

[vnatale]

This article may be of interest in addressing Vinny's comments above. I highlighted a couple of key thoughts. Probably a couple of the current "government acting against God's Word" concerns Roe vs. Wade (condoning murder) and endorsement of LGBTQ+ (sexual morality).


When natural law or reason is functioning properly, it agrees with the Ten Commandments. In fact, the law “written on the heart” is the point of contact with the Law revealed in the Ten Commandments. That’s why the preaching of the Law hits home with people who don’t know Christ. God designed it that way as preparation for the Gospel! When it is commonly said that America was founded as a “Christian Nation,” that is only true in the sense that the overwhelming number of the founders were Christians, and that they recognized the benefit Christianity affords government.

Thanks for this. Just read it.

You cited two items: "Roe vs. Wade (condoning murder) and endorsement of LGBTQ+ (sexual morality)"

The above also stated that: "the overwhelming number of the founders were Christians".

What was the overlap of how many of them both fit into this category (were Christians) and who were also active slaveholders?

From the point of view of now and then would you have added as a third category -- slavery being legal in this country?

[Mountaineer]

This article may be of interest in addressing Vinny's comments above. I highlighted a couple of key thoughts. Probably a couple of the current "government acting against God's Word" concerns Roe vs. Wade (condoning murder) and endorsement of LGBTQ+ (sexual morality).


When natural law or reason is functioning properly, it agrees with the Ten Commandments. In fact, the law “written on the heart” is the point of contact with the Law revealed in the Ten Commandments. That’s why the preaching of the Law hits home with people who don’t know Christ. God designed it that way as preparation for the Gospel! When it is commonly said that America was founded as a “Christian Nation,” that is only true in the sense that the overwhelming number of the founders were Christians, and that they recognized the benefit Christianity affords government.

Thanks for this. Just read it.

You cited two items: "Roe vs. Wade (condoning murder) and endorsement of LGBTQ+ (sexual morality)"

The above also stated that: "the overwhelming number of the founders were Christians".

What was the overlap of how many of them both fit into this category (were Christians) and who were also active slaveholders?

From the point of view of now and then would you have added as a third category -- slavery being legal in this country?

Personally, I do not think slavery as was practiced in 18th, 19th century, and earlier, in the US, Middle East, Africa, Asia etc. is consistent with the way God desires for us to live. I think slavery as discussed in the Bible frequently is not as we have come to understand it by today's secular standards, or by God's will for how we should live. Here is one view: https://www.biblestudytools.com/diction ... e-slavery/ I guess if I were forced to choose though, I'd pick a government that endorsed slavery over a government that endorses abortion. At least the slaves might have a chance to enjoy life, even if a miserable one while on on this earth.

Many actions/practices of the past we find abhorant by today's standards show how desparately man needs a Savior, i.e. what happens when man decides to be in charge instead of God being in charge (the list of examples is long - murder, stealing, sexual immorality, lying, putting ones self above others, desiring that which is not ours, etc.). God's promise of Genesis 3:14, 15 is important; much of the rest of the First Testament shows that God does a lot of strange things to bring the promise to fruition, e.g. brings the seed, Jesus, to save us as we are incapable of saving ourselves. Many actions/practices of our current society are equally abhorant; as Sarah Palin famously said, you can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig. It usually reduces to the fundamental question "Who is going to be God? God, or sinful man?" The answer we usually choose is the latter and the consequences are evident. Thanks be to God that those who have been given the gift of belief and trust in His Word are forgiven.

[murphy_p_t]

Mountaineer, this is a worthwhile contribution.

From your perspective, is there a particular church/state arrangement (current or historical) which exemplifies the ideals which you / Luther advocate?

In particular, I'm curious if you view the arrangement in the USA as the ideal, or is your ideal what exists or existed in one of the various Nordic countries.

(In this case, it's not a Socratic question.)

[Mountaineer]

Mountaineer, this is a worthwhile contribution.

From your perspective, is there a particular church/state arrangement (current or historical) which exemplifies the ideals which you / Luther advocate?

In particular, I'm curious if you view the arrangement in the USA as the ideal, or is your ideal what exists or existed in one of the various Nordic countries.

(In this case, it's not a Socratic question.)

Based on my experience of living in a few different states and towns in the USA and traveling to a few places in Europe, the USA is "good enough" as evidenced by the number of people who try to get into the country vs. those who want to get out; definitely the USA is not ideal but I doubt that any country or municipality on earth, past or present, is or was. Anywhere that sinful people live is not ideal ... and we are all sinners. I am greatly looking forward to living in that ideal "new heaven and earth" in the perfect presence of God.

[murphy_p_t]

The intent of my question was to inquire from a scriptural/theological/doctrinal perspective. I'm interested to know which arrangement comes closest to your understanding or Luther's understanding of your beliefs.

[Mountaineer]

The intent of my question was to inquire from a scriptural/theological/doctrinal perspective. I'm interested to know which arrangement comes closest to your understanding or Luther's understanding of your beliefs.

Murphy, not to evade your question, but I really don't know. I'm not that familar with all the various countries/states/cities of the world to have an informed opinion of the various laws and living conditions. I can only say that the places I've lived in the USA are "good enough". I've so far been free to practice my religion without being unduly hassled and have always lived in relatively "safe" areas and had good neighbors.

I think from a scriptural/theological/doctrinal understanding, freedom is heavily inside ones head. I am free to worship God regardless of whether I'm roaming around on the wide open prairie or locked in a jail cell; real freedom (as opposed to liberty) cannot be taken away from me by anyone. The book "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl is a good explanation of that perspective. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl
Material liberty in the kingdom of the left is another matter; thus my comments about living in places that are so far "good enough".

[Mountaineer]

A blessed Good Friday to my PP Forum friends - Christ is Crucified, it is finished.

... Mountaineer

From last year. It was inspired by a sermon by Forde, published in The Bride of Christ that I read some 20-25 years ago. I wish I would have saved that issue. Don Kirchner

“It is finished,” our Lord cried. A single word in the original Greek: τετέλεσται, "tetelesthai."

In his hymn "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God," Luther states that one little word will fell Satan, The Accuser. But Luther never actually told us what the one little word was. I always assumed that it was the single Greek word for “It is written,” i.e., γέγραπται, "gegraptai," Jesus’ response to Satan in His temptation in the wilderness.

In contemplating Good Friday and what Jesus accomplished, however, I am no longer so convinced. On this Good Friday, I would argue that the one little word that fells Satan is the single Greek word for “It is finished," i.e., τετέλεσται, “Tetelesthai!”

This word sounded loudly that afternoon in the silence that had fallen on Calvary. “Tetelesthai!” Jesus proclaimed, “It is finished!” This was no whimper of resignation, no acknowledgment of defeat. This was a cry of victory. "Tetelesthai!" means the goal has been reached, all is completion, the finish line crossed, the victory won! And the perfect tense of this Greek verb means that the accomplishment is continuing, once and for all. There will be no need to revisit the work. Jesus declares that everything is now completed, it stands finished, forever.

"Tetelesthai!" "It is finished!" This is the word Satan dreads. He loves to tempt us to sin, and then, when we’ve fallen, to throw our sins back in our faces. But when The Accuser attacks and your conscience strikes you, especially then, learn to take comfort in this word, “Tetelesthai!”

It is finished. Christ has done it all. “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1). And because you are baptized, you are in Christ, united in his death, in his accomplished mission. You, too, are finished.

But there's more! Just wait until Sunday! For now, on this Good Friday, rest assured that The Evil One can no longer accuse you. One little word fells him."Tetelesthai!" for you are forgiven of all your sins, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

[murphy_p_t]

Status update on followers of Luther.

https://twitter.com/Christianus47/statu ... dfAAQ&s=19

[Xan]

Things Your Lutheran Pastor Totally Loves: Being Mistaken for the ELCA (Episode Three)

[murphy_p_t]

"not my kind of Lutheran"



Lol

Kind of like ...not my flavor of ice cream

More seriously...Have the true lutherans issued any excommunications against the fakers? Issued any anathema's? That would be fun to read; I'm interested particularly in their source of authority, which they exercise over the lutherans who they presumably reject fellowship with.


Ps. I saw a Lutheran Missouri synod Minister a few months ago, well-dressed, in Black... With a Roman collar!

[Xan]

I don't think the Lutherans have anyone like this guy

Brilliant, Desert! Except that Murphy doesn't believe that guy is the Pope. But he's still totally Catholic.

[murphy_p_t]

To be pope of the Catholic church, you have to be Catholic.

"Francis" is not, and never was, pope of the Catholic Church. He has celebrated Martin Luther; that should be a big tip off.

Kudos to Xan... Good memory.

[Xan]

"not my kind of Lutheran"



Lol

Kind of like ...not my flavor of ice cream

More seriously...Have the true lutherans issued any excommunications against the fakers? Issued any anathema's? That would be fun to read; I'm interested particularly in their source of authority, which they exercise over the lutherans who they presumably reject fellowship with.


Ps. I saw a Lutheran Missouri synod Minister a few months ago, well-dressed, in Black... With a Roman collar!

There are multiple church bodies in the country that claim the name "Lutheran" but are unaffiliated with each other. The largest is the ELCA, which includes some relatively faithful congregations as well as a lot of craziness. Your question would well apply to the faithful in the ELCA.

The second-largest, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, in the "kind of Lutheran" from the video. The LCMS is not in communion with the ELCA, so the ELCA and LCMS are already as excommunicated from each other as they can get. LCMS pastors normally wear clerical collars, usually in black.

As for authority, we don't consider not being in communion with another group as an exercise in authority, so much as one of discernment. We believe that unity in doctrine comes before unity in the Supper, so we don't share the Supper with those who aren't members of the LCMS or of another body with which we are in altar fellowship. There is a worldwide association of confessional Lutherans of which the LCMS is a member, as well as a worldwide association of, let's say, more progressive Lutherans of which the ELCA is a member.

I think a key difference is that we don't deny that other churches have the true Supper. We believe that the Romans and the Eastern Orthodox do, for example. We still don't commune with them "horizontally", that is, side-by-side at the altar, but we do believe that we commune with them "vertically", as we all share the same Supper.

The ELCA some years ago declared alter fellowship with the Episcopal Church, which denies the Real Presence of Christ in the Supper, and so most LCMS opinion (I think) is that the ELCA no longer has that Presence.