Figuring Out Religion

[Kshartle]

I was definately a believer and had arguments that I think really exposed weaknesses in my athiest's friends arguments. Many of the argument's put forth here against the existance of God I've been on the opposite side of and I think deconstructed. All that work though has sharpened what I think is a pretty strong case against any of the God concepts curently worshipped by humans.

[Mountaineer]

Kashartle,

Thank you for taking the time to answer.

... Mountaineer

[Kshartle]

Kashartle,

Thank you for taking the time to answer.

... Mountaineer

Hey my pleasure. I delayed because I thought it would be tiring but I just kept it as short as I could.

[MediumTex]

Spent 5-6 years at that Church in the choir, volunteer, singles ministry etc. It stated to become clearer to me that things didn't make sense and as I have now spent some time away and studied other things I've come to the conclusion that it's not true.

That must have been a disturbing process to go through.  Part of what makes it difficult is that it is often hard to find anyone you can really talk to about it.

I'm sure that it didn't help that anyone at the church you might have wanted to talk to about it would probably have just assumed that the Devil was trying to make off with their dear Kshartle.

How much would it suck to be trying to sort through all of that stuff and have your church try to stage an intervention to free you from the grip of Satan?

***

To the larger points you raise, I think that one possible "truth" behind much of human belief in a supernatural being is based upon an intuition that there IS something outside of ourselves that strengthens us when we tap into it and which we don't fully understand but to which we would like to get closer.

I think that one of the hazards of a libertarian outlook is that you can get too self-absorbed in the process of celebrating your self-ownership and sovereignty.  Occasionally it can be fun to spend a little time as just one anonymous fish in a gigantic school of fish mindlessly swimming along.  For example, that moment at a concert or sporting event when you are just jumping up and down screaming mindlessly with the rest of the crowd can be very cathartic.

For a person who is a chronic follower with a weak sense of individual identity, it would probably be an incredible rush to see the world through the eyes of someone like Ayn Rand.  OTOH, for someone like Ayn Rand, it would probably be a similarly mind-blowing experience to see the world even for a moment through the eyes of an ant.

[Benko]

I think that one possible "truth" behind much of human belief in a supernatural being is based upon an intuition that there IS something outside of ourselves that strengthens us when we tap into it and which we don't fully understand but to which we would like to get closer. 

Yes,

although I would say that there is not just intuition, but there actually is something there, greater than us which we can tap into, and people e.g. mystics have actually tapped into and experienced it. There are mystics of all denominations e.g. Meister Eckhardt was a christian mystic. 

THere are studies about our brain being wired to experience certain states which can be experienced through e.g. prayer or meditation.  The dogma of religion may have nothing to do with achieving these states which may have more to do with e.g. sincerity.

[Kshartle]

7. I'm not an evolutionist. I think the argument for intelligent design is much more compelling. Humans are unable to create anything close to the complexity of the human brain. To think it could happen without something intelligent designing it to me seems absurd but I'm not an expert on the subject. Now where did that intelligence come from.........

Kshartle, I second Mountaineer's thanks for your responses.  Like you, I've never bought into evolution.  Even when I thought all religions were bunk, I found evolution to be a pretty embarassing (for the evolutionists) theory.  It seems born of necessity rather than something predicted by the evidence.

I've always questioned the "science" du jour, including evolution, global warming, etc.  I'm often amazed when I see people (rightly) distrustful of government, religion and mainstream economics, but seem to think big science is immune from the foolishness and conformity found in large organizations of all kinds.

Yeap, I can count on one hand the people I've met who can actually give a reason for what they believe other than trusting the source. Trusting a source is fine, but then just admit that and don't share like you have an actual opinion. If you're just a human parrot do us all a favor and stop sucking up all the oxygen in the room.

[moda0306]

Kshartle,

2. After 30 years of being a strict believer, I started studying philosophy, logic and ethics. I came to a 100% or 99.9% confident belief in rational proof of secular ethics, human self-ownership and individual rights.

How do you have this knowledge but can't remember what inductive vs deductive logic are?  These are the building-blocks of logic. You went for weeks without expressing any indication that these terms confused you, and then all of a sudden expressed that you didn't know what they meant.

And didn't you recently say that you were quite sure there was NOT a God?  I don't mean to misquote and can't search for it now.

[Jan Van]

Trusting a source is fine, but then just admit that and don't share like you have an actual opinion.

A source like the Bible, Koran, Bhagavat Gita or some such?

[doodle]

I think that one possible "truth" behind much of human belief in a supernatural being is based upon an intuition that there IS something outside of ourselves that strengthens us when we tap into it and which we don't fully understand but to which we would like to get closer. 

Yes,

although I would say that there is not just intuition, but there actually is something there, greater than us which we can tap into, and people e.g. mystics have actually tapped into and experienced it. 

I don't think that you tap into "it" , but instead realize that you ARE "it". In other words, you come to the realization that you are the universe experiencing yourself through your own eyes.

And out of curiosity, how do Christians generally interpret John 10:34?

The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." 34Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '? 35"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken,…

[Mountaineer]

I don't think that you tap into "it" , but instead realize that you ARE "it". In other words, you come to the realization that you are the universe experiencing yourself through your own eyes.

And out of curiosity, how do Christians generally interpret John 10:34?

The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." 34Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '? 35"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken,…

Most commentators view the word "god" in vs. 34 refers to the leaders of Israel, e.g. the judges.  The main point of this passage is that the Jews wanted to be their own God ... i.e. thinking they knew more about Jesus than God did.  Similar to today.

... Mountaineer

[Gosso]

I don't think that you tap into "it" , but instead realize that you ARE "it". In other words, you come to the realization that you are the universe experiencing yourself through your own eyes.

And out of curiosity, how do Christians generally interpret John 10:34?

The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." 34Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '? 35"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken,…

One way to look at it is through the lens of Genesis, where Adam and Eve were created in the image of God.  I don't believe this means physically, but rather spiritually through consciousness, the soul, free will, the moral compass, etc.  These things in a sense make us Gods, but only an image or piece of the ultimate God.  These tools allows us to know, fear, hate, love, or long for God.

Remember that Jesus was the begotten son of God (according to the Christian story), while we are created sons and daughters of God.  The difference is similar to us creating a baby or instead a statue of a baby.  This would elevate Jesus to the level of God, while we are images/paintings/statues created by God.

Kinda fun to think about.

[doodle]

The other question I

I don't think that you tap into "it" , but instead realize that you ARE "it". In other words, you come to the realization that you are the universe experiencing yourself through your own eyes.

And out of curiosity, how do Christians generally interpret John 10:34?

The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." 34Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '? 35"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken,…

Most commentators view the word "god" in vs. 34 refers to the leaders of Israel, e.g. the judges.  The main point of this passage is that the Jews wanted to be their own God ... i.e. thinking they knew more about Jesus than God did.  Similar to today.

... Mountaineer

This is how I view it: (not my words)

I believe Jesus Christ, if he existed, had an experience of cosmic consciousness similar to what was experienced by Buddha, Ramana Maharshi, and many other people throughout history. Jesus apparently tried to communicate this experience to his followers as best he could, limited by the language and cultural concepts of his time and place.

It is possible that each of us is a function of what the whole cosmos is doing at a point called here and now. In effect, each of us IS the whole universe looking at itself through our eyes. The universe is conscious and self-aware, a.k.a. God, and this awareness and consciousness is within each of us. In other words, what happened to Jesus was NOT a unique experience that only happened to one man in all history and prehistory, but something that EACH of us can experience directly when we tune in to the consciousness that is the base of our existence.

I read the exact same Bible as the Christians do, yet I see Jesus teaching us the same message taught by Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism. Consider the following verses along with the interpretation I offer as an alternative to the mainstream Christian interpretation.

John Chapter 10, verses 30-36 (KJV)
10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

The King James Version of the Bible has “the”? in italics before “Son of God”? in verse 36. This is not for emphasis as some may think, but shows words interpolated by the translators. In this case, they were mistaken. The original Greek does NOT have an article before “Son of God,”? which in Greek is equivalent to having an indefinite article. In the original Greek of this scripture, Jesus did NOT say he is the Son of God; he said I am a Son of God. He also quoted Psalm 82 that says “Ye are gods.”?

John Chapter 14, verse 12 (KJV)
14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. HE WILL DO EVEN GREATER THINGS THAN THESE, because I am going to the Father.

Jesus says the ordinary humans he left behind (who, according to traditional Christian mythology, are NOT divine as he is) will do greater things than Jesus did. I put those words in all-caps to emphasize them.

John Chapter 17, verses 21-22 (KJV)
17:21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE:

Again I put some words in all-caps to emphasize them. It seems pretty clear to me that Jesus says we can be one with the Father just as he was. In other words, what happened to him is NOT something unique that could ONLY happen to him, but it can happen to each of us. Jesus even PRAYS that we can experience it too!

Now many Christians will protest that Jesus says quite plainly:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”? (John 14:6, KJV)

I agree, but perhaps not the way that Christians would like me to agree. It is my opinion that this “I am,”? this “me”? that Jesus speaks of is the big Self of divine consciousness (not the little self of the ego) that is within EACH OF US and was consciously realized by Jesus.

Here is a plausible explanation of what happened: Jesus tried to explain his experience of cosmic consciousness as best he could, using the language and concepts available to him from the culture of his time and place. Awed by his miracles, the disciples of Jesus missed the point of what he was trying to share with them. They distorted the meaning of his message and worshipped the messenger instead. Christianity does not teach the religion OF Jesus, which was the realization of divine Sonship, but the religion ABOUT Jesus, a castrated version of the Gospel that puts Jesus on a pedestal and says that only He, and nobody else, is divine.

For further study, I recommend anything by the late author, philosopher and “spiritual entertainer”? Alan Watts, but especially pertaining to this subject Myth and Religion 3: Jesus, His Religion that I paraphrase portions of on this page. Alan Watts does a great job of explaining eastern philosophies to western audiences, and he is also good at explaining what mainstream Christianity teaches, even if he doesn't necessarily agree with it. In at least one of his audio files, Alan Watts makes the point that if Jesus had been born in India he would NOT have been crucified. When Jesus told others that he and the Father were one, they would have said “Congratulations. You finally figured it out.”?

[dualstow]

Most commentators view the word "god" in vs. 34 refers to the leaders of Israel, e.g. the judges.  The main point of this passage is that the Jews wanted to be their own God ... i.e. thinking they knew more about Jesus than God did.  Similar to today.

... Mountaineer

I don't quite get that. Picture a young man in your community right now, a stranger or an acquaintance. He announces himself to be God. Do you believe it, or do you think he might have issues? Let's say you go with the latter assessment and then I turn around and say you think you know more than God knows, and also that you want to be your own God. Does that sound fair?

It was even more serious back then since there was a specific law against announcing yourself to be God incarnate, one form of blasphemy.

What happens if two different people announce themselves as the Son of God in the same time frame -- and who knows how many contemporaries of Jesus did so.  Pick the wrong one and I guess you're shit out of luck.

[Gosso]

doodle,

Some quick thoughts.  I think most spiritual Christians would say the following is wrong: "God is within me, therefore I am God."  This would just result in idol worship of the ego.  Spiritual Christians would agree with: "God is within me, therefore I must be healed, learn from, and be transformed by Him."

The Gnostic Jesus is tempting on some levels, but I feel that it makes Jesus too small, overly simplified, and quite frankly boring.  There is a lot more depth to Christianity (particularly from the Church Fathers, saints, theologians, artists, poets, architecture, etc), which is what I'm slowly learning.

[Mountaineer]

Most commentators view the word "god" in vs. 34 refers to the leaders of Israel, e.g. the judges.  The main point of this passage is that the Jews wanted to be their own God ... i.e. thinking they knew more about Jesus than God did.  Similar to today.

... Mountaineer

I don't quite get that. Picture a young man in your community right now, a stranger or an acquaintance. He announces himself to be God. Do you believe it, or do you think he might have issues? Let's say you go with the latter assessment and then I turn around and say you think you know more than God knows, and also that you want to be your own God. Does that sound fair?

It was even more serious back then since there was a specific law against announcing yourself to be God incarnate, one form of blasphemy.

What happens if two different people announce themselves as the Son of God in the same time frame -- and who knows how many contemporaries of Jesus did so.  Pick the wrong one and I guess you're shit out of luck.

Scripture tells us how to identify false prophets.  There are several different passages you can find with a google search.  Here is a sermon (link below) that you may wish to read discussing the subject of recognizing false prophets:

Grace Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, Elgin, Texas

http://www.graceelgin.org/worship/trans ... False.html

Carl D. Roth and Grace Lutheran Church, Elgin, Texas. Grace, mercy and ... Jesus says we will recognize false prophets by their fruits. What is the fruit of a ...

Edited to add a second link that may be useful:

Grace Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, Elgin, Texas
http://www.graceelgin.org/worship/trans ... ctors.html
We also will learn how to recognize and consume the saving fruits that come from ... He says, "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but ...

[Gosso]

doodle,

Some quick thoughts.  I think most spiritual Christians would say the following is wrong: "God is within me, therefore I am God."  This would just result in idol worship of the ego.  Spiritual Christians would agree with: "God is within me, therefore I must be healed, learn from, and be transformed by Him."

The Gnostic Jesus is tempting on some levels, but I feel that it makes Jesus too small, overly simplified, and quite frankly boring.  There is a lot more depth to Christianity (particularly from the Church Fathers, saints, theologians, artists, poets, architecture, etc), which is what I'm slowly learning.

  gnostic religion has at it center a non dualistic perception of the world, achieved by transcending ego, not by worshiping it, if a mystic said i am god it is meant to describe their perception of relationship with the universe beyond ego, making the statement a bit paradoxical because of the use of the word "I".... but that's the sort of weirdness that emerges when trying to describe in words and symbols an experience that can't be described without putting the limits of language on the unlimited...

Good points!  I agree that most gnostic/eastern/zen religions are designed to transcend the ego.  All I meant is that one needs to be careful when saying "I am God", especially if they still have a large western ego.  Carl Jung called this "inflation of the ego", which usually caused problems for his patients.

Christian saints/mystics also attempt to transcend the ego, but then have it replaced by or working with Christ. 

[Pointedstick]

Holy Moley! Pope Francis sez:

All religions are true, because they are true in the hearts of all those who believe in them. What other kind of truth is there? In the past, the church has been harsh on those it deemed morally wrong or sinful. Today, we no longer judge. Like a loving father, we never condemn our children. Our church is big enough for heterosexuals and homosexuals, for the pro-life and the pro-choice! For conservatives and liberals, even communists are welcome and have joined us. We all love and worship the same God.

http://diversitychronicle.wordpress.com ... n-council/

[Xan]

Holy Moley! Pope Francis sez:

All religions are true, because they are true in the hearts of all those who believe in them. What other kind of truth is there? In the past, the church has been harsh on those it deemed morally wrong or sinful. Today, we no longer judge. Like a loving father, we never condemn our children. Our church is big enough for heterosexuals and homosexuals, for the pro-life and the pro-choice! For conservatives and liberals, even communists are welcome and have joined us. We all love and worship the same God.

http://diversitychronicle.wordpress.com ... n-council/

PS - That's a "wishful thinking" article.  None of that is true.

[Pointedstick]

The quotation isn't true? The Pope was misquoted?

[Pointedstick]

Darn, you're right. It's a hoax: http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/francis.asp

[Mountaineer]

Darn, you're right. It's a hoax: http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/francis.asp

Beware of false prophets. 

[Pointedstick]

You know, speaking of false prophets, I just thought of something.

The Judeo-Christian religious tradition is full of prophets! And with this whole family of religions, some of the religions acknowledge some of the prophets but not all of them. For example, Jews recognize Abraham, but consider Jesus "just a nice Jewish boy". Christians acknowledge that Abraham was a prophet, but say that Jesus was another better one (and the messiah too, obviously. ). Muslims will acknowledge that both Abraham and Jesus were prophets, but claim that Mohammed was another one, and got even more of the story right once God talked to him. And in modern times, Mormons claim that Joseph Smith was yet another prophet!

It's sort of amazing to me how many prophets the Judeo-Christian religious tradition have spawned. And it's also interesting how many different groups will claim their prophet is the ultimate prophet, and that at all the prophets who emerged after their religion was founded are just phonies.

[Mountaineer]

One way to spot a false prophet is to see if the prophecy comes true, pretty much always.  Check out some of the ones you mentioned other than the Judeo-Christian ones plus Jesus ... they really don't "cut the mustard" from everything I've managed to read about them and what they predicted.

... Mountaineer

[Pointedstick]

How am I supposed to figure out factually what happened when the only records of these events are religious texts written by people who believed that the predictions came true?

Was Jesus resurrected, for example? The dudes who pieced together the new testament sure seemed to think so, but how can I be sure?

[Kshartle]

How am I supposed to figure out factually what happened when the only records of these events are religious texts written by people who believed that the predictions came true?

Was Jesus resurrected, for example? The dudes who pieced together the new testament sure seemed to think so, but how can I be sure?

If you could figure it out factually there'd be no need for faith. Without faith you couldn't pass the faith test PS.

Listen.....I'll save you a seat in Hell near the window if I get there first.