Figuring Out Religion

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Xan
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:41 pm

pp4me wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:21 pm
Xan wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:17 pm
It does reduce confusion with the church labeled "Catholic", but I'm against it and would call it an error, whether translation or otherwise. I always say "catholic" when reciting the Creed myself. In fact when we say the Athanasian Creed, annually on Trinity Sunday, we DO say "catholic" in that one.
First I heard of the Athanasian Creed although I do believe I heard of Athanasia if memory serves me right. Wasn't he the Egyptian Bishop who was mostly responsible for sifting through all the early Christian writings and whittling them down to the 26 writings that he considered divinely inspired? In other words, the "canonical" wiritings of the New Testament as we know them today?

If you consider the Athanasian creed to be superior to others, including the Nicean, can you briefly explain why?
I didn't say it was superior, but it does describe in detail the mystery of the Trinity, and also is the Creed that explicitly says that Christ shares Mary's human nature in addition to the Father's divine nature.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:29 pm

murphy_p_t wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:35 pm
"When they asked why they should go to our church rather than some other one I have to admit to being a lousy salesman because I had no real answer for them."

This is my question for any person who attends services at, or adheres to the diverging opinions, of the various Christian sects. Lutheran, methodist, baptist, free church, reformed, etc.
Although schismatic, I do not include the Eastern Orthodox churches among the list of the various sects. I do not include them as a sect because they are actual churches. They have all seven sacraments, they have Apostolic succession through their bishops (unbroken line of succession going back to the apostles), they have the true priesthood, they proceed from a thousand year history of unity with the see of Peter, they practice the liturgy of Saint John chrysostom (same rite as some Eastern rite Catholics), they did not invent a whole new theology, etc.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by pp4me » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:41 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:41 pm
pp4me wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:21 pm
Xan wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:17 pm
It does reduce confusion with the church labeled "Catholic", but I'm against it and would call it an error, whether translation or otherwise. I always say "catholic" when reciting the Creed myself. In fact when we say the Athanasian Creed, annually on Trinity Sunday, we DO say "catholic" in that one.
First I heard of the Athanasian Creed although I do believe I heard of Athanasia if memory serves me right. Wasn't he the Egyptian Bishop who was mostly responsible for sifting through all the early Christian writings and whittling them down to the 26 writings that he considered divinely inspired? In other words, the "canonical" wiritings of the New Testament as we know them today?

If you consider the Athanasian creed to be superior to others, including the Nicean, can you briefly explain why?
I didn't say it was superior, but it does describe in detail the mystery of the Trinity, and also is the Creed that explicitly says that Christ shares Mary's human nature in addition to the Father's divine nature.
I always had a hard time squaring the fact that there are so many different creeds and dominations with the Bible verse that says "God is not the author of confusion".

The next verse after that in 1 Corinthians says that women should keep silent in church, BTW. That's also a little confusing.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:56 pm

"I always had a hard time squaring the fact that there are so many different creeds and dominations with the Bible verse that says "God is not the author of confusion".

You are correct to note this problem of the denominations who separated themselves from the one Church (and later from each other). The multitude of doctrines and opinions promulgated by the various sects is evidence that they are not the one Church founded by Jesus Christ, on the rock of Peter. Picking up the book, assembled (codified) by the one Church, and opening a place of business, does not make you a branch of the church.

Unity is one of the four marks of the Church...
As indicated by the Creed

One (unity)
Holy
Catholic
Apostolic
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:36 pm

Xan... Thank you for clarifying the current practice of the Missouri synod.

Re: "the filioque ("and from the Son")"

Do you accept this doctrine, as referenced in the Creed cited by mountaineer? Why or why not?

I accept it on faith, Because it is the universal and unchanging teaching of the Church. (If it was added to the Creed after the original council, as a point of clarification, does not detract from its truthfulness in any way.)
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:50 am

murphy_p_t wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:56 pm
"I always had a hard time squaring the fact that there are so many different creeds and dominations with the Bible verse that says "God is not the author of confusion".

You are correct to note this problem of the denominations who separated themselves from the one Church (and later from each other). The multitude of doctrines and opinions promulgated by the various sects is evidence that they are not the one Church founded by Jesus Christ, on the rock of Peter. Picking up the book, assembled (codified) by the one Church, and opening a place of business, does not make you a branch of the church.

Unity is one of the four marks of the Church...
As indicated by the Creed

One (unity)
Holy
Catholic
Apostolic
I'm sharing the following quotation because I found it to be so insightful to this subject.



James Kent Stone is an English convert)
(First Published in 1870)

The Church at the Council of Constantinople declared concerning herself that she is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. These are not only her essential qualities, but her outward and visible signs, the marks whereby she may always be infallibly recognized.

I. The Church is first One. Unity is its prime characteristic. Whatever else the Church may be, it is one — visibly one, unmistakably one, incontrovertibly one.

The Church, then, is first One. It is one because God is one, and as God is one (St. John, 17:21). The Church cannot be divided; for if it could be divided, it would cease to be one; and if it could cease to be one, it would cease to be the Church. To refer to an “undivided” Church in the past is to assert the existence of a divided Church in the present; and to affirm the fact of division is to admit the loss of unity; but unity is of the Church’s eternal essence, and cannot be lost. There is a sense in which we may speak of the undivided Church; but it is the same in which we speak of the undivided Trinity-undivided because indivisible. Nothing can be plainer than this. And now, O reader, ask yourself whether anything can be more plain than this also which I am about to assert further. All churches but one acknowledge that the Church universal is divided. There is one Church, and only one, which holds and proclaims that unity has never been and never can be severed.

Let us go back to more than a hundred years before the time when the Church first dogmatically announced the fact of that unity with which her Lord had endowed her, and read the faith of the primitive Fathers concerning the nature of this supernatural oneness. The treatise of St. Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae, is, incidentally, a splendid dissertation upon the truth that divine unity implies indivisibility, and that the Church, being divinely one, can never suffer partition or mutilation. Members may be cut off from the Church, but the Church itself remains whole and undivided. A few passages will give the tenor of the whole discourse.

“The Lord says, ‘I and the Father are one.’ And again, of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, it is written: ‘And these three are one.’ And does anybody believe that this unity, coming from the divine solidity, cohering by means of heavenly sacraments, can possibly be divided in the Church, and divorced by the collision of wills?”

“He who holds not this unity of the Church, does he think that he holds the faith?” “He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his Mother.” A type of the Church’s unity is found in the seamless coat, woven from the top throughout, which even the Roman soldiers did not rend. In short, “unity cannot be severed, nor the one body by laceration (discidio compaginis) be divided.”

St. Augustine follows St. Cyprian, and uses his metaphor with excellent effect against the Donatists. “The Catholic Church, which as St. Cyprian says, ‘stretches her branches in the richness of exuberance over the whole earth,’ endures everywhere the scandals of those who, through the fault of their grievous pride, are cut off from her, some in one place and some in another….For where they fall there they remain, and in the place where they are severed there they wither away; whence the Church herself from which they are cut off is spread even through those lands where those broken branches lie each in its own region.” And again: “Wherever heretics exist there is also the Catholic Church; but the reverse is not true, that wherever the Church exists there is also any particular heresy. Whence it is evident enough which is the tree that spreads its branches over the whole earth,” (here he quotes St. Cyprian again) “and which are the broken branches that have no vital connection with the root, but lie and wither each in its own place.” Even the people of Africa could have told us what was meant by the figure of the vine and the branches; for their great Bishop taught them to sing a psalm against the Donatists, one of the closing stanzas of which runs thus:

Come, brethren, if you wish to be engrafted in the vine;
We grieve to see you lie thus cut off from it.
Number your bishops from the very Chair of Peter,
And in that list of Fathers trace the succession.
This is the Rock against which the proud gates of hell do not prevail.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by pp4me » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:04 pm

murphy_p_t wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:56 pm
"I always had a hard time squaring the fact that there are so many different creeds and dominations with the Bible verse that says "God is not the author of confusion".

You are correct to note this problem of the denominations who separated themselves from the one Church (and later from each other). The multitude of doctrines and opinions promulgated by the various sects is evidence that they are not the one Church founded by Jesus Christ, on the rock of Peter. Picking up the book, assembled (codified) by the one Church, and opening a place of business, does not make you a branch of the church.

Unity is one of the four marks of the Church...
As indicated by the Creed

One (unity)
Holy
Catholic
Apostolic
So why doesn't God just make it clear to every one what is the one true church and be done with it?

If you were God, how hard could that be any way? Does the devil have his hands tied?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by pugchief » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:41 pm

Even the Christians (Protestant/Catholic) and the Muslims (Sunni/Shia) can't agree on what's what, so how do you expect the rest of the religions to concur?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mark Leavy » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:46 pm

pugchief wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:41 pm
Even the Christians (Protestant/Catholic) and the Muslims (Sunni/Shia) can't agree on what's what, so how do you expect the rest of the religions to concur?
If you follow the logic, it's Mexican Catholic all the way.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5424&p=131896&hilit ... ic#p131907
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:00 pm

"So why doesn't God just make it clear to every one what is the one true church and be done with it?"

I will take a crack at this, but by no means should it be considered magisterial...

I will briefly dismiss the obviously false and man-made religions, most of which do not claim to have any exclusive path of salvation. First, all the pagan religions... Who worship creation rather than the Creator. Or worship idols, made of their own hands.

Secondly I will dismiss the religion of Muhammad, a pedophile and worldly man, whose religion is based in lust and plunder.

Third, I will dismiss the religion of today's pharisaical rabbis (Jewish religion), as the Temple was destroyed, as prophesized by Jesus Christ. Sacrifice at the temple was the essential element of the Israelite religion, a precursor to the sacrifice of Calvary. There's no reason for the precursor, now that the crucifixion and Resurrection occurred 2,000 years ago. As they reject Christ, and their Temple was destroyed, they reformulated their religion, such that today it is a man-made affair. They refuse to accept that Jesus expanded his flock to all of mankind, no longer just for the Israelites.

So that brings us to the Christian religion, the Church. Jesus was born of a virgin, performed many miracles, was tortured, crucified and buried. He then rose from the dead. Although there is much credible testimony regarding these events, acceptance of it ultimately comes down to Faith. Having fulfilled the prophecies of the Old testament confirms his unique mission and identity.


God's ways are not our ways. Jesus told Pilate that His kingdom is not of this world. He told the doubting Thomas to examine his wounds and believe... Yet blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe. So in the mystery of God's order, He desires people to have faith in Him.

The following passages illustrate in some way that the ways of God are not necessarily the ways of men. At His first coming, he did not come as a conqueror like many of the judeans were looking for. He was born in a stable, he escaped death at the hands of Herod, the son of a humble Carpenter.


GOSPEL Matt. 13:24-30
At that time, Jesus spoke this parable to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is likened to a man that sowed good seed in his field. But while men were asleep, his enemy came and oversowed cockle among the wheat and went his way. And when the blade was sprung up, and had brought forth fruit, then appeared also the cockle. And the servants of the good man of the house coming said to him. 'Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? Whence then hath it cockle?' And he said to them: 'An enemy hath done this.' And the servants said to him: 'Wilt thou that we go and gather it up?' And he said: 'No, lest perhaps gathering up the cockle, you root up the wheat also together with it. Suffer both to grow until the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers: 'Gather up first the cockle, and bind it into bundles to burn, but the wheat gather ye into my barn.' "

GOSPEL Matt. 13:31-35
AT THAT TIME, Jesus spoke this parable unto them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field. Which is the least indeed of all seeds; but when it is grown up, it is greater than all herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come, and dwell in the branches thereof."
Another parable he spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like to leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, until the whole was leavened."All these things Jesus spoke in parables to the multitudes: and without parables he did not speak to them. That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world."


Further to discerning which is the true Christian religion... In case you are drawn to protestantism... I refer you to the assembled tracts by Saint Francis de Sales, under the title "The Catholic Controversy." St Francis de sales, through this writing, brought back 70,000 to the unity of the Catholic Church, in the area near Geneva.

https://www.catholicwaypublishing.com/s ... -15-books/

Briefly, part of his argument is that the Protestant so-called reformers have no authority, they were sent by no one, they were usurpers. There were no prophecies which foretold their actions and self-designated mission. They have no jurisdiction to do what they did. They have no miracles to confirm what they taught. St Francis is brutal in his directness against the so-called reformers. The ridicule he dishes out is even humorous at points.


Even among the Protestant sects, which claim that theirs is the true religion? Do Baptists claim that their religion is true, to the exclusion of the Presbyterians? Does the Missouri synod claim it is the true church, to the exclusion of the ELCA?

Do the teachings of the Protestant sects blow with the winds of the world? For example, did Protestants universally reject artificial birth control up until the first part of the 20th century? How many of the sects reject it today? What principle permits the dropping of this prohibition against onanism?

Were the denominations, such as the Anglican religion (England), founded for spiritual purposes? Or was it founded so Henry VIII could divorce his wife and take another, contradicting the words of Jesus? Henry was awarded the title "defender of the faith," by the Pope in Rome, for his written attack on the Lutheran heresy, before he claimed to be head of the Church in England...which found support among certain classes for the purposes of plundering the monasteries of the British isles. Previously, the monastic lands supported the lower classes. (see "A history of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland") Did Luther's revolt in northern Germany also find partisan favor with those who lusted after the wealth of the Church? Opportunists.


Contrary to the Protestant sects, the Catholic church has miracles from heaven. The miracle of the Sun at Fatima, acknowledged by the secular and anti-catholic media of the day; Eucharistic miracles where the consecrated host visibly changes into flesh and blood... Which holds up under scientific examination. The Catholic Church also has prophecy, such as from Quito Ecuador (our Lady of good success).
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:50 am

.

Happy Thanksgiving 2021 to all.

The psalmist recounts the mighty acts of God on behalf of his people, the Israelites, all of which are cause to give thanks. Now, consider the mighty acts of God in your life, starting with the deliverance of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sin, through the Means of Grace: Baptism, The Lord’s Supper, Confession and Absolution, Christian Conversation:

Psalm 136
1 Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good,
for his steadfast love endures forever.
2 Give thanks to the God of gods,
for his steadfast love endures forever.
3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
4 to him who alone does great wonders,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
5 to him who by understanding made the heavens,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
6 to him who spread out the earth above the waters,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
7 to him who made the great lights,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
8 the sun to rule over the day,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
9 the moon and stars to rule over the night,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
10 to him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
11 and brought Israel out from among them,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
12 with a strong hand and an outstretched arm,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
13 to him who divided the Red Sea in two,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
14 and made Israel pass through the midst of it,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
15 but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red Sea,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
16 to him who led his people through the wilderness,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
17 to him who struck down great kings,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
18 and killed mighty kings,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
19 Sihon, king of the Amorites,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
20 and Og, king of Bashan,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
21 and gave their land as a heritage,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
22 a heritage to Israel his servant,
for his steadfast love endures forever.
23 It is he who remembered us in our low estate,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
24 and rescued us from our foes,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
25 he who gives food to all flesh,
for his steadfast love endures forever.
26 Give thanks to the God of heaven,
for his steadfast love endures forever.


.
God’s will is truly strange to a moral person. God seeks not to reward virtue but to have mercy in the person of his son, Jesus Christ. From page 135, Luther’s Outlaw God by Steven D. Paulson.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Desert » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:11 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:46 pm
pugchief wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:41 pm
Even the Christians (Protestant/Catholic) and the Muslims (Sunni/Shia) can't agree on what's what, so how do you expect the rest of the religions to concur?
If you follow the logic, it's Mexican Catholic all the way.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5424&p=131896&hilit ... ic#p131907
One could do worse.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by pp4me » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:58 pm

murphy_p_t wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:00 pm
"So why doesn't God just make it clear to every one what is the one true church and be done with it?"

I will take a crack at this, but by no means should it be considered magisterial...
Glad you were willing to take a crack at it. It's really the age old problem of suffering. If God can't stop it, then he's not omnipotent. And if he has the power to stop it and chooses not to then he is not benevolent

You have the only solution to the cognitive dissonance that I think is available, IMHO. You start with the apriori assumption that both of these things are true and work backwards from there. "His ways are not our ways" is the only logical conclusion you can come to and the Bible supports the claim as an argument from authority and you are satisfied with that because you think those really are the words of God on the subject and they aren't to be questioned.

I have more respect for people who are willing to openly admit that is what they believe and their mind is unchangeable, probably due to subjective experience which I really do understand. People who twist themselves into pretzels trying to provide logical answers are like used car salesmen or a white house press secretary to me.
Last edited by pp4me on Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:12 pm

Very interesting, timely comments above. Here is the devotion from Lutheran Hour Ministries today that discusses the problem of evil.

https://www.lhm.org/dailydevotions/defa ... e=20211126

Nov. 26, 2021



Luke 1:1; 3-4 - Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us ... it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught.

This devotion pairs with this weekend's Lutheran Hour sermon, which can be found at lutheranhour.org.

I was visiting with a young man—I'll call him Stephen. Over the course of a year, I visited him and his family at the children's hospital. Stephen was in the eighth grade and was suffering from leukemia. We prayed for his recovery, and there were moments when it looked like the Lord might spare him. But, in the spring of that year, he died.

During this time, I was serving as a pastor and studying for my doctorate degree. My dissertation research focused on Christian hope and the problem of evil. You can visualize the problem of evil like this: imagine you're trying to carry three very large glasses of water in one hand. If you're careful, you can balance two. But, when you try to carry all three at once, they spill. The problem of evil is like that. It's three very large gulps of biblical truth. The First Truth is that God is loving. The Second Truth is that God is all-powerful. The Third Truth is that evil exists. In my research, I read many books about the problem of evil. Often, an author would try to solve the problem by setting aside one of those biblical truths. Very few set aside the truth about God's love. They'd be more likely to deny the existence of God than to suppose that God Himself were evil. Some set aside the truth about God's power. They put limits on God's power, explaining how there are some things even God can't help. Or they set aside the truth about evil. They explained or tried to explain how all evil is necessarily part of a greater good.

While I was visiting Stephen at the children's hospital that year, I had these books on my mind-ancient and modern, philosophical and practical deliberations about evil. And on the brief walk from the elevator to Stephen's room, every one of those explanations failed me.

One afternoon, I was so overwhelmed with this problem, I took a break from my studies. I went for a walk. I had an audio Bible on my phone. The narrator was reading from the Gospel according to Luke, the opening of which we just heard. And I listened again to Luke tell me about Jesus—what He did and said, the promises He made, the kind of Person that He is. I noticed that Luke gave me neither explanations nor directions on how to solve evil. Instead, he shared a narrative about the One who had and would. And I found myself trusting Jesus, loving Him, and wanting to love like Him, in spite of evil. And so, when I visited Stephen, I shared some of Luke's narrative with him. And Stephen said he trusted Jesus, too.

Over the next several weeks on The Lutheran Hour, we're going to be listening to Luke's narrative about Jesus. I invite you to listen with us and discover the certainty of things you have been taught.

THE PRAYER: Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the living God, deliver us from evil. Amen.

This Daily Devotion was written by Rev. Dr. Michael Zeigler, Speaker of The Lutheran Hour.

Reflection Questions:

1. How has evil in the world made you face doubts about God's power or love?

2. Skim through Luke's Gospel. Which part shows you the trustworthiness of Jesus most clearly?

3. What helps you continue to trust Jesus in spite of evil in the world?
God’s will is truly strange to a moral person. God seeks not to reward virtue but to have mercy in the person of his son, Jesus Christ. From page 135, Luther’s Outlaw God by Steven D. Paulson.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:36 am

pp4me wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:22 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:50 pm
Perhaps masochism is a thing that that always afflicts a certain number of people at any one time. Perhaps the masochists, like the poor, will always be with us. But a society that rewards those with such tendencies, and indeed tells people with such tendencies that their tendencies are not just natural but a demonstration of virtue, is a society likely to produce a higher concentration of masochists than most.
Interesting that this ended up in the "Figuring Out Religion" thread.
I don't think it's out of place entirely, probably deserves its own thread. Observing where some of the (most?) cuckolded populations exist... among historically Lutheran populations. Scandinavia... And their descendants in Minnesota.

I don't recall where I read about the evolution of Scandinavia away from the Lutheran State religion(s) to their dominant, current form of socialism / liberal democracy / guilt complex. Not that other European peoples are immune, but it's particularly acute amongst the Scandinavians.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:06 am

pp4me wrote: "I thought Jesus already defeated them and "It is finished". Did Jesus do that, or did he not? Can you explain that cognitive dissonance?"

I believe you point out the stumbling block of the Protestant heresy, by exposing the inherent unreasonableness and contradiction of the Sola fide, Sola scriptura position.

When I have seen assertions of faith alone, often with a quote from scripture... They are invariably out of context. I don't know if Luther had ripped those segments out of the New testament which didn't fit his theology, as he did in the Old testament.

Christ taught: “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17, Cf. Matt 5:17, 1 John5:2

In contradiction to Christ, Luther said:

“We must remove the Decalogue out of sight and heart” (De Wette 4, 188).
“It does not matter what people do; it only matters what they believe.”

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apo ... m#_ftnref2


In teaching Faith alone, Protestantism promotes the sin of presumption. "It may be defined as the condition of a soul which, because of a badly regulated reliance on God's mercy and power, hopes for salvation *****without doing anything to deserve it*****, or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them. Presumption is said to offend against hope by excess, as despair by defect. " https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12403a.htm

We read in Matthew chapter 4:
"Then Jesus was led by the spirit into the desert, to be tempted by the devil. [2] And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards he was hungry. [3] And the tempter coming said to him: If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. [4] Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. [5] Then the devil took him up into the holy city, and set him upon the pinnacle of the temple,

[6] And said to him: If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down, for it is written: That he hath given his angels charge over thee, and in their hands shall they bear thee up, lest perhaps thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. "

So we see from the words of Jesus, we learn that presuming upon the mercy of God is prohibited. Again, Christ taught: “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17, Cf. Matt 5:17, 1 John5:2

I did find it interesting that Mountaineer shared the Athanasian Creed, which concludes with the following:

"Those who have ***done good deeds*** will go into eternal life; those who have done evil will go into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic faith. Everyone must believe it, firmly and steadfastly; otherwise He cannot be saved."


Sadly, the basis of protestantism is contradicted by the scripture they claim is the rule of their faith. To accept the doctrine of "faith alone" leads to a dead end, as it directly contradicts the words of Jesus.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:36 am

I just reread Matthew chapter 5, which concludes with the following: "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."

http://drbo.org/chapter/47005.htm

In my view, deriving Luther's doctrine of sola fide from The sermon on the Mount requires some serious mental gymnastics.

Sadly, one of the things I get reading is the recognition of how much I fail to live up to these words, as I suspect Luther did. For someone suffering from scrupulosity leading to despair, a proud man might overreact by discounting the plain words ("be perfect") and inventing his own doctrine.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:51 pm

And further, from Matthew chapter 7

Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. [24] Every one therefore that heareth these my words, ****and doth them****, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock,


This is not sola fide.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:03 pm

You probably already know this, but there are 5 solas we Confessional Lutherans (and many other traditions) hold to be true. They are a whole package and 1 should not be pulled out of context - e.g. faith alone.

https://carm.org/about-doctrine/what-ar ... ive-solas/

Blessings.
God’s will is truly strange to a moral person. God seeks not to reward virtue but to have mercy in the person of his son, Jesus Christ. From page 135, Luther’s Outlaw God by Steven D. Paulson.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Kbg » Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:51 pm

Being ever the middleist, I’ve never understood either extreme. If scripture is the final authority then clearly what you do in life matters and you will be judged for your actions. On the other hand, it’s impossible to get through life without sin and thus the need of grace through the atonement of Christ Jesus.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:33 pm

Mountaineer, thank you for your contribution. Reminder of the Solas is helpful, as they are not named in the Scriptures, nor in The ecumenical councils.

Under Sola scriptura, the article States: "The Bible says not to exceed what is written (1 Corinthians 4:6)."

Is this the extent of the Protestants' support, from scripture, for the Sola scriptura doctrine? For the sake of the integrity of the Protestant belief, I would expect much more.

The Gospel of John concludes with the following statement: "But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written."

Furthermore, the Gospel of John, I think, was written down after the first letter to the Corinthians was written. In any case, the Canon of the Bible was not definitively established for centuries after the Resurrection.

As the Church was growing for centuries before before the Bible was finalized, I don't think it is reasonable to infer what the article suggests/extrapolates of that quote from 1 Corinthians. Otherwise, for the first several centuries, Christians would not know what to believe.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:45 pm

murphy_p_t wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:33 pm
Mountaineer, thank you for your contribution. Reminder of the Solas is helpful, as they are not named in the Scriptures, nor in The ecumenical councils.

Under Sola scriptura, the article States: "The Bible says not to exceed what is written (1 Corinthians 4:6)."

Is this the extent of the Protestants' support, from scripture, for the Sola scriptura doctrine? For the sake of the integrity of the Protestant belief, I would expect much more.

The Gospel of John concludes with the following statement: "But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written."

Furthermore, the Gospel of John, I think, was written down after the first letter to the Corinthians was written. In any case, the Canon of the Bible was not definitively established for centuries after the Resurrection.

As the Church was growing for centuries before before the Bible was finalized, I don't think it is reasonable to infer what the article suggests/extrapolates of that quote from 1 Corinthians. Otherwise, for the first several centuries, Christians would not know what to believe.
Also see Revelation 22:18-19. I know that some interpret this to mean only the book of Revelation, and others the entire Bible. I personally go with the latter as I believe the Bible is the Word of God and contains exactly what He intends, even though it took man several centuries to get there.
God’s will is truly strange to a moral person. God seeks not to reward virtue but to have mercy in the person of his son, Jesus Christ. From page 135, Luther’s Outlaw God by Steven D. Paulson.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:49 pm

kbg wrote "On the other hand, it’s impossible to get through life without sin "

100%

This is why the priest has the authority to forgive sins in the sacrament of confession... In accord with Jesus' words to the ***Apostles***

"He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." John chapter 20

This shows why Apostolic succession is so important... This power was given to the apostles, and has been passed down to today through the line of bishops, validly consecrated. The bishops delegate this authority to the validly ordained priests.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:58 pm

murphy_p_t wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:49 pm
kbg wrote "On the other hand, it’s impossible to get through life without sin "

100%

This is why the priest has the authority to forgive sins in the sacrament of confession... In accord with Jesus' words to the ***Apostles***

"He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." John chapter 20

This shows why Apostolic succession is so important... This power was given to the apostles, and has been passed down to today through the line of bishops, validly consecrated. The bishops delegate this authority to the validly ordained priests.
I mainly agree. I would say though Apostolic succession is based on the teachings of the Apostles rather than the person of the Apostle (e.g. otherwise which of the three simultaneous Popes do you go with?). I will build my church on this rock - i.e. the rock is Peter’s confession that “you are the Christ”, not on a sinful Peter. YMMV
God’s will is truly strange to a moral person. God seeks not to reward virtue but to have mercy in the person of his son, Jesus Christ. From page 135, Luther’s Outlaw God by Steven D. Paulson.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:15 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:45 pm
murphy_p_t wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:33 pm
Mountaineer, thank you for your contribution. Reminder of the Solas is helpful, as they are not named in the Scriptures, nor in The ecumenical councils.

Under Sola scriptura, the article States: "The Bible says not to exceed what is written (1 Corinthians 4:6)."

Is this the extent of the Protestants' support, from scripture, for the Sola scriptura doctrine? For the sake of the integrity of the Protestant belief, I would expect much more.

The Gospel of John concludes with the following statement: "But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written."

Furthermore, the Gospel of John, I think, was written down after the first letter to the Corinthians was written. In any case, the Canon of the Bible was not definitively established for centuries after the Resurrection.

As the Church was growing for centuries before before the Bible was finalized, I don't think it is reasonable to infer what the article suggests/extrapolates of that quote from 1 Corinthians. Otherwise, for the first several centuries, Christians would not know what to believe.
Also see Revelation 22:18-19. I know that some interpret this to mean only the book of Revelation, and others the entire Bible. I personally go with the latter as I believe the Bible is the Word of God and contains exactly what He intends, even though it took man several centuries to get there.
[18] For I testify to every one that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add to these things, God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book. [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from these things that are written in this book.

I was going to cite these verses in my previous reply to you. I did not include it because (1) the undefined scope, which you stated and (2) more importantly, it does not address that which was not written down as scripture.

Therefore, to use those verses from revelation to justify Sola scriptura seems to be circular reasoning.

I'm glad that you acknowledge and recognize that the Canon of the Bible was not established for several centuries. However, I'm puzzled that that doesn't seem to give you pause, as if the early Christians were fumbling in the dark before the Canon was finalized.

From the Catholic perspective, ***being in the Church*** , The Ark of salvation, is the key. Recall, even once the canon was established, few people could read. Even fewer had their own copy of the bible, prior to the printing press, for another thousand plus years. If having and knowing the scripture was the path of salvation, you would expect Jesus to have passed out bound copies. But of course, he didn't even write a single tract. And his apostles and disciples were almost exclusively unlettered.

I'm certain you are aware of all that, but I don't know the common Protestant reply.
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