Figuring Out Religion

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Ad Orientem » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:01 pm

The internet is not big enough to cover the complexities of this sad, and scandalous situation. The Moscow Patriarchate (MP) and the Ecumenical Patriarchate (EP) have a centuries long history of often chilly relations, with blame to go around. In recent years the Russian Church has been accused, not without some justification, of being too close to the government of V.V. Putin. And the EP has been trying to claim powers and authority that go far beyond the honor traditionally accorded to the First Throne and Primus inter Pares. This was exacerbated when the MP along with a number of other local Orthodox churches refused to play along with the EP's council on Crete that Bart has tried to pass of as an Ecumenical Council. From my perspective this is very political. But I think the EP has overstepped himself. Not a single canonical local Orthodox church has recognized what the EP is claiming and several have sharply criticized him for activities that are threatening the peace and unity of the Church.

At the moment there is a lot of back-channel diplomacy going on and it is possible that a pan-Orthodox Synaxis may be convened to settle this mess.

FWIW my own take is that the EP is behaving like some kind of Orthodox pope and his actions are grossly uncanonical. I am no great fan of their playing along as Putin's state church but the Russians are on solid ground here with church canons and I think they had no choice but to break communion with Constantinople in the face of such brazen provocations. I just hope that this does not become a long term schism. The EP's position under the canons is important. But like them or not, the Russian Orthodox Church has a little over 1/3 of the world's Orthodox Christians under their omiphorion. And whatever their politics (most of their bishops are monarchists) they are solidly Orthodox. No modernist milquetoast from them. The EP has sadly been a bit squishy on some important issues in recent years.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:08 pm

Thanks, Ad O. All very sad. Hopefully, as you say, this break will be very short-lived.

Out of curiosity (and it's completely none of my business) is your church a Russian Orthodox? Or something else? Also, is it possible for a member of any Orthodox, er, patriarchy(?) to join a church in a different one? Or do you have to be re-catechized and reconfirmed, etc?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Ad Orientem » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:57 pm

Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:08 pm
Thanks, Ad O. All very sad. Hopefully, as you say, this break will be very short-lived.

Out of curiosity (and it's completely none of my business) is your church a Russian Orthodox? Or something else? Also, is it possible for a member of any Orthodox, er, patriarchy(?) to join a church in a different one? Or do you have to be re-catechized and reconfirmed, etc?
I belong to the Orthodox Church in America . It used to be the old Russian Metropolia here in the United States. The OCA was granted independence by the Russian Orthodox Church in the early 1970's and today is in communion with all of the worlds other canonical local Orthodox churches. All canonical Orthodox churches are typically in full sacramental communion with one another (the current schism is an extraordinary and unusual situation). We all share the same faith and sacraments and (normally) one can attend churches under another jurisdiction and commune the sacraments without any issue as long as you respect their rules. It's best to ask the blessing of the priest if you are visiting another parish under a different jurisdiction just to be sure. In Orthodoxy baptism is a one time deal and if done validly, it is never repeated. Chrismation, in the west commonly referred to as Confirmation, is usually also a one time deal. Although I have heard of rare cases where formal apostates were re-Chrismated if returning to the Church after a long period of separation .

I should add here that the situation is very unusual in the United States as we have multiple jurisdictions in the same geographic area. This is not normal and is a result of the history of immigration here coupled with the confusion caused by the Russian Revolution. North America was originally under the jurisdiction of the Russian Church but the era of Communist persecution forced many to limit their ties with the Moscow Patriarchate.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:57 pm

There was an interesting description of why the Orthodox schism is a big deal on "The Briefing" this morning, October 17. A lot of history was discussed. https://albertmohler.com/the-briefing/.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:52 am

Thanks, Ad O, for all the insight and information. Mountaineer, that brief audio was a great piece; it finally treated the subject with the gravity it deserves. I'm hoping Issues Etc will do an interview on it, even if it's just an analysis of the American media's totally sub-par response. I believe Terry Mattingly is an Eastern Orthodox himself, so that would be an interesting interview.

Ad O, visiting other churches is similar for us: even when it's another LCMS church, or a church we're in full communion with, it's polite to talk to the pastor ahead of time and perhaps expect a quick examination before taking Communion there.

So if the Orthodox churches are all in communion with one another, except for the broken connection between two of them, I wonder how that works. Can members of all the "neutral" churches take Communion at both Constantinople-an and Russian churches? Or would you be examined and asked which side you support?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Ad Orientem » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:23 am

Xan wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:52 am
Thanks, Ad O, for all the insight and information. Mountaineer, that brief audio was a great piece; it finally treated the subject with the gravity it deserves. I'm hoping Issues Etc will do an interview on it, even if it's just an analysis of the American media's totally sub-par response. I believe Terry Mattingly is an Eastern Orthodox himself, so that would be an interesting interview.

Ad O, visiting other churches is similar for us: even when it's another LCMS church, or a church we're in full communion with, it's polite to talk to the pastor ahead of time and perhaps expect a quick examination before taking Communion there.

So if the Orthodox churches are all in communion with one another, except for the broken connection between two of them, I wonder how that works. Can members of all the "neutral" churches take Communion at both Constantinople-an and Russian churches? Or would you be examined and asked which side you support?
Generally you should be allowed to take communion as long as your bishop is in communion with the bishop over the parish you are visiting. However we do not practice the modernist innovation of "open communion" which is alien to the praxis of the ancient Church. If you approach the chalice and the priest doesn't know you there is a good chance you are going to get the 3rd degree. "Are you Orthodox? Have you kept the fasts? When was the last time you went to confession?" The correct answers are yes, yes and in the Russian Church... within the last 24 hours. Some of the other jurisdictions are a bit less strict about confession but most will insist on it within no more than the last 30 days if you want to commune.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Ad Orientem » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:35 pm

A good summary of the current Orthodox schism can be found here...

Ukraine Church Controversy: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2018/10/18/ ... tions-faq/
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:12 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:35 pm
A good summary of the current Orthodox schism can be found here...

Ukraine Church Controversy: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2018/10/18/ ... tions-faq/
It sure sounds like Constantinople (the "EP") is playing a weak hand. And that it's standing against all the other Orthodox churches.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Ad Orientem » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:14 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:12 pm
Ad Orientem wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:35 pm
A good summary of the current Orthodox schism can be found here...

Ukraine Church Controversy: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2018/10/18/ ... tions-faq/
It sure sounds like Constantinople (the "EP") is playing a weak hand. And that it's standing against all the other Orthodox churches.
That's my take as well. I think Bart has seriously overstepped. His behavior is being widely seen as disruptive and injuring the peace and unity of the Church.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:35 am

Following is an interesting discussion of God and why bad things happen.

There is a longstanding tradition in Lutheran theology (going back to Luther) of distinguishing between God's proper work (that of loving, caring for and saving humanity) and His alien work (His wrath over and punishment of sin). See for example "God's Alien Word and His Proper Work" by Gene Veith, "'God's Alien & Proper Work' (Deuteronomy 3236-39), Palm Sunday March '16" by Rev. Taggatz, "The Proper Work of God and the Alien Work of God" posted by Andrew Grams, or "Kansas District Reformation 500 Essays: God's Alien Work: The Condemnation of the Law" by Pr. Jon Bruss, numerous other articles may be found.


One of the arguments that has been used against Christianity is the accusation that God as portrayed in the Bible is a capricious, petty and petulant taskmaster who imposes arbitrary rules and then flies into a rage when His petty rules are not followed. See for example the writings of Richard Dawkins. In talking about the wrath of God, the need for atonement, God's whole salvation plan, we need to be careful that do not give credence to this misunderstanding of the wrath of God.


Part of the problem, I feel, is that as sinful human beings we have a tendency to view any rule or law that interferes with our desires as an arbitrary and unnecessary infringement on our freedom. Law is the enemy, to be ignored when possible, gotten around when possible, or grudgingly obeyed when necessary. A reading of Psalm 119 would be salutary. Related to this is the image of God as some old curmudgeon going around looking to see if anyone is having fun and putting a stop to it. Rather we should emphasize that God's Law is His understanding of how life actually works and His advise to us based on that knowledge. Good advise carries with it a warning. When good advise is ignored Bad Things Happen.


Recently in the news there have been reports of several deaths of visitors to Yosemite National Park. People taking selfies at popular scenic overlooks have ventured too close to the edge, slipped and plunged to their deaths. There are rules against going too close to the edge. How should we view these rules and the potential death penalty for violating those rules? Park management being spoil sports and trying to keep people from once in a lifetime pix, or an attempt to keep people safe from a danger they may not realize?


Far too often Christians have used fear to try to keep people in line. Whatever else the sermon may contain, Jonathan Edwards' sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" is in the popular imagination an example of threatening with hell any who would cross God. The Fear of God is a difficult concept for people to fully grasp. Too often the image it conveys is of God as a capricious, powerful being who is touchy and liable to fly off the handle at anyone who dares to question much less disobey His arbitrary and unnecessary dictates. We know that is not the case. We are to fear God much as we should fear the scenic overlooks at Yosemite. Not that the overlooks are just looking for people that they can dump over the edge to their doom, but that we need to be careful of them, treat them with respect and enjoy them properly.


Why should we want to obey God's law? Because we love God and obedience pleases Him. Because we trust that God does know best and the law that He has laid down is really a guide to a good life. And because we know if we violate God's law Bad Things Are Likely to Happen. And ultimately, if reject God's Law it can lead to rejecting God and separating us from God for eternity.


http://104.244.124.69/~alpbadmin/Forum/ ... #msg452803
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:27 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:35 am
Following is an interesting discussion of God and why bad things happen.

There is a longstanding tradition in Lutheran theology (going back to Luther) of distinguishing between God's proper work (that of loving, caring for and saving humanity) and His alien work (His wrath over and punishment of sin). See for example "God's Alien Word and His Proper Work" by Gene Veith, "'God's Alien & Proper Work' (Deuteronomy 3236-39), Palm Sunday March '16" by Rev. Taggatz, "The Proper Work of God and the Alien Work of God" posted by Andrew Grams, or "Kansas District Reformation 500 Essays: God's Alien Work: The Condemnation of the Law" by Pr. Jon Bruss, numerous other articles may be found.


One of the arguments that has been used against Christianity is the accusation that God as portrayed in the Bible is a capricious, petty and petulant taskmaster who imposes arbitrary rules and then flies into a rage when His petty rules are not followed. See for example the writings of Richard Dawkins. In talking about the wrath of God, the need for atonement, God's whole salvation plan, we need to be careful that do not give credence to this misunderstanding of the wrath of God.


Part of the problem, I feel, is that as sinful human beings we have a tendency to view any rule or law that interferes with our desires as an arbitrary and unnecessary infringement on our freedom. Law is the enemy, to be ignored when possible, gotten around when possible, or grudgingly obeyed when necessary. A reading of Psalm 119 would be salutary. Related to this is the image of God as some old curmudgeon going around looking to see if anyone is having fun and putting a stop to it. Rather we should emphasize that God's Law is His understanding of how life actually works and His advise to us based on that knowledge. Good advise carries with it a warning. When good advise is ignored Bad Things Happen.


Recently in the news there have been reports of several deaths of visitors to Yosemite National Park. People taking selfies at popular scenic overlooks have ventured too close to the edge, slipped and plunged to their deaths. There are rules against going too close to the edge. How should we view these rules and the potential death penalty for violating those rules? Park management being spoil sports and trying to keep people from once in a lifetime pix, or an attempt to keep people safe from a danger they may not realize?


Far too often Christians have used fear to try to keep people in line. Whatever else the sermon may contain, Jonathan Edwards' sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" is in the popular imagination an example of threatening with hell any who would cross God. The Fear of God is a difficult concept for people to fully grasp. Too often the image it conveys is of God as a capricious, powerful being who is touchy and liable to fly off the handle at anyone who dares to question much less disobey His arbitrary and unnecessary dictates. We know that is not the case. We are to fear God much as we should fear the scenic overlooks at Yosemite. Not that the overlooks are just looking for people that they can dump over the edge to their doom, but that we need to be careful of them, treat them with respect and enjoy them properly.


Why should we want to obey God's law? Because we love God and obedience pleases Him. Because we trust that God does know best and the law that He has laid down is really a guide to a good life. And because we know if we violate God's law Bad Things Are Likely to Happen. And ultimately, if reject God's Law it can lead to rejecting God and separating us from God for eternity.


http://104.244.124.69/~alpbadmin/Forum/ ... #msg452803
What version of the Bible are the Lutherans getting their theology from nowadays? Sounds to me like it must be a Children's story Bible.

Curses for Disobedience (Deuteronomy 28)...

15 “But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you. 16 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field. 17 Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 18 Cursed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. 19 Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.

20 “The Lord will send on you curses, confusion, and frustration in all that you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken me. 21 The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought[a] and with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And the heavens over your head shall be bronze, and the earth under you shall be iron. 24 The Lord will make the rain of your land powder. From heaven dust shall come down on you until you are destroyed.

25 “The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them. And you shall be a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 And your dead body shall be food for all birds of the air and for the beasts of the earth, and there shall be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, and with tumors and scabs and itch, of which you cannot be healed. 28 The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of mind, 29 and you shall grope at noonday, as the blind grope in darkness, and you shall not prosper in your ways. And you shall be only oppressed and robbed continually, and there shall be no one to help you. 30 You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall ravish her. You shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it. You shall plant a vineyard, but you shall not enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you shall not eat any of it. Your donkey shall be seized before your face, but shall not be restored to you. Your sheep shall be given to your enemies, but there shall be no one to help you. 32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, while your eyes look on and fail with longing for them all day long, but you shall be helpless. 33 A nation that you have not known shall eat up the fruit of your ground and of all your labors, and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually, 34 so that you are driven mad by the sights that your eyes see. 35 The Lord will strike you on the knees and on the legs with grievous boils of which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head.

36 “The Lord will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone. 37 And you shall become a horror, a proverb, and a byword among all the peoples where the Lord will lead you away. 38 You shall carry much seed into the field and shall gather in little, for the locust shall consume it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and dress them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes, for the worm shall eat them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil, for your olives shall drop off. 41 You shall father sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours, for they shall go into captivity. 42 The cricket[c] shall possess all your trees and the fruit of your ground. 43 The sojourner who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. 44 He shall lend to you, and you shall not lend to him. He shall be the head, and you shall be the tail.

45 “All these curses shall come upon you and pursue you and overtake you till you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that he commanded you. 46 They shall be a sign and a wonder against you and your offspring forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart, because of the abundance of all things, 48 therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and lacking everything. And he will put a yoke of iron on your neck until he has destroyed you. 49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the end of the earth, swooping down like the eagle, a nation whose language you do not understand, 50 a hard-faced nation who shall not respect the old or show mercy to the young. 51 It shall eat the offspring of your cattle and the fruit of your ground, until you are destroyed; it also shall not leave you grain, wine, or oil, the increase of your herds or the young of your flock, until they have caused you to perish.

52 “They shall besiege you in all your towns, until your high and fortified walls, in which you trusted, come down throughout all your land. And they shall besiege you in all your towns throughout all your land, which the Lord your God has given you. 53 And you shall eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your sons and daughters, whom the Lord your God has given you, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemies shall distress you. 54 The man who is the most tender and refined among you will begrudge food to his brother, to the wife he embraces,[d] and to the last of the children whom he has left, 55 so that he will not give to any of them any of the flesh of his children whom he is eating, because he has nothing else left, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in all your towns. 56 The most tender and refined woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because she is so delicate and tender, will begrudge to the husband she embraces,[e] to her son and to her daughter, 57 her afterbirth that comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears, because lacking everything she will eat them secretly, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in your towns.

58 “If you are not careful to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God, 59 then the Lord will bring on you and your offspring extraordinary afflictions, afflictions severe and lasting, and sicknesses grievous and lasting. 60 And he will bring upon you again all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Every sickness also and every affliction that is not recorded in the book of this law, the Lord will bring upon you, until you are destroyed. 62 Whereas you were as numerous as the stars of heaven, you shall be left few in number, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God. 63 And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

64 “And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. 65 And among these nations you shall find no respite, and there shall be no resting place for the sole of your foot, but the Lord will give you there a trembling heart and failing eyes and a languishing soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you. Night and day you shall be in dread and have no assurance of your life. 67 In the morning you shall say, ‘If only it were evening!’ and at evening you shall say, ‘If only it were morning!’ because of the dread that your heart shall feel, and the sights that your eyes shall see. 68 And the Lord will bring you back in ships to Egypt, a journey that I promised that you should never make again; and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer.”
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Kbg » Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:56 pm

Yeah, pretty major hammer. Balance would suggest you also quote verses 1-14. And oh yeah, the next chapter puts it all in context which I always find to be useful information. Arguably, the hammer came down as described. Pick one, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans. Any would likely do for fulfilling the prophecy.

The theological question...was this a covenant with just the Children of Israel as the chosen people or does it extend to all humanity?

Luke 12:48 as a New Testament reference point for thinking about the above (not that they are related).
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:49 pm

A heavy hammer indeed for those blessings and curses in Deuteronomy 28. The law always accuses. The Law is not the problem, sinful man is the problem. It is also helpful to read the First Testament (OT) in light of the Second Testament (NT) to shed understanding, for example Romans 8 - pure comforting Gospel indeed for those who are in Christ Jesus and have Christ Jesus in them.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ESV
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:02 pm

Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:56 pm
Yeah, pretty major hammer. Balance would suggest you also quote verses 1-14. And oh yeah, the next chapter puts it all in context which I always find to be useful information. Arguably, the hammer came down as described. Pick one, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans. Any would likely do for fulfilling the prophecy.

The theological question...was this a covenant with just the Children of Israel as the chosen people or does it extend to all humanity?

Luke 12:48 as a New Testament reference point for thinking about the above (not that they are related).
I was contrasting the Lutheran pastor's depiction of the way God really feels about those who disobey his laws with what is actually portrayed in the Bible so I didn't see any point in quoting the blessings in verses 1-14. The idea of laws being like signs to keep you from going over a cliff while God passively watches just doesn't comport with the Biblical picture as I read it. It's more like, "If you don't do what I say I am going to get really, really pissed off and I'll not only push you off the cliff I will drop a big bolder on top of you and let the worms eat your body". I could have probably found another hundred examples of this (and they aren't all in the Old Testament).

Don't get me wrong. I much prefer the kindler, gentler version of God but I think he's mostly an invention of modern Christianity. It would be better for the world if Muslims would follow the same path.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:39 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:02 pm
Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:56 pm
Yeah, pretty major hammer. Balance would suggest you also quote verses 1-14. And oh yeah, the next chapter puts it all in context which I always find to be useful information. Arguably, the hammer came down as described. Pick one, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans. Any would likely do for fulfilling the prophecy.

The theological question...was this a covenant with just the Children of Israel as the chosen people or does it extend to all humanity?

Luke 12:48 as a New Testament reference point for thinking about the above (not that they are related).
I was contrasting the Lutheran pastor's depiction of the way God really feels about those who disobey his laws with what is actually portrayed in the Bible so I didn't see any point in quoting the blessings in verses 1-14. The idea of laws being like signs to keep you from going over a cliff while God passively watches just doesn't comport with the Biblical picture as I read it. It's more like, "If you don't do what I say I am going to get really, really pissed off and I'll not only push you off the cliff I will drop a big bolder on top of you and let the worms eat your body". I could have probably found another hundred examples of this (and they aren't all in the Old Testament).

Don't get me wrong. I much prefer the kindler, gentler version of God but I think he's mostly an invention of modern Christianity. It would be better for the world if Muslims would follow the same path.
A good Lutheran pastor absolutely should treat the Law the way you describe. All that harshness is true about the Law. It just that the story doesn't have to end there.

You sound very much like the disciples upon hearing Jesus say that it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. (Speaking of harsh Law!) Their reaction: "Who, then, can be saved?"

Jesus's answer: "With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

We can be saved not by relying on our own righteousness (lawkeeping), but by relying on that of Jesus, whose righteousness is accounted as our own.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Kbg » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:06 am

jacksonM wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:02 pm
Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:56 pm
Yeah, pretty major hammer. Balance would suggest you also quote verses 1-14. And oh yeah, the next chapter puts it all in context which I always find to be useful information. Arguably, the hammer came down as described. Pick one, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans. Any would likely do for fulfilling the prophecy.

The theological question...was this a covenant with just the Children of Israel as the chosen people or does it extend to all humanity?

Luke 12:48 as a New Testament reference point for thinking about the above (not that they are related).
I was contrasting the Lutheran pastor's depiction of the way God really feels about those who disobey his laws with what is actually portrayed in the Bible so I didn't see any point in quoting the blessings in verses 1-14. The idea of laws being like signs to keep you from going over a cliff while God passively watches just doesn't comport with the Biblical picture as I read it. It's more like, "If you don't do what I say I am going to get really, really pissed off and I'll not only push you off the cliff I will drop a big bolder on top of you and let the worms eat your body". I could have probably found another hundred examples of this (and they aren't all in the Old Testament).

Don't get me wrong. I much prefer the kindler, gentler version of God but I think he's mostly an invention of modern Christianity. It would be better for the world if Muslims would follow the same path.
By way of full disclosure I'm a Latter-Day Saint and our theology and doctrine is, on some significant points, decidedly different from mainstream Christianity. One for example, is that we believe in continuing prophetic revelation. Accordingly, a moving doctrinal/theological target is something we accept as quite normal and indeed part of the plan of a loving God who tailors His message to the people who exist at the time of revelation. Logically, I think most people would conclude that human understanding, culture and belief systems are decidedly different from those that existed 2500ish years ago. God doesn't change, but we do.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:37 am

Xan wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:39 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:02 pm
Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:56 pm
Yeah, pretty major hammer. Balance would suggest you also quote verses 1-14. And oh yeah, the next chapter puts it all in context which I always find to be useful information. Arguably, the hammer came down as described. Pick one, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans. Any would likely do for fulfilling the prophecy.

The theological question...was this a covenant with just the Children of Israel as the chosen people or does it extend to all humanity?

Luke 12:48 as a New Testament reference point for thinking about the above (not that they are related).
I was contrasting the Lutheran pastor's depiction of the way God really feels about those who disobey his laws with what is actually portrayed in the Bible so I didn't see any point in quoting the blessings in verses 1-14. The idea of laws being like signs to keep you from going over a cliff while God passively watches just doesn't comport with the Biblical picture as I read it. It's more like, "If you don't do what I say I am going to get really, really pissed off and I'll not only push you off the cliff I will drop a big bolder on top of you and let the worms eat your body". I could have probably found another hundred examples of this (and they aren't all in the Old Testament).

Don't get me wrong. I much prefer the kindler, gentler version of God but I think he's mostly an invention of modern Christianity. It would be better for the world if Muslims would follow the same path.
A good Lutheran pastor absolutely should treat the Law the way you describe. All that harshness is true about the Law. It just that the story doesn't have to end there.

You sound very much like the disciples upon hearing Jesus say that it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. (Speaking of harsh Law!) Their reaction: "Who, then, can be saved?"

Jesus's answer: "With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

We can be saved not by relying on our own righteousness (lawkeeping), but by relying on that of Jesus, whose righteousness is accounted as our own.
Correct. If all you preach is a God of love and kindness is it not inevitable that people will start to ask from what is it then that I need to be saved?

And it would seem that a lot of people are asking that question nowadays, at least in developed countries where Christianity is in decline.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:42 am

jacksonM wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:37 am
Xan wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:39 pm
A good Lutheran pastor absolutely should treat the Law the way you describe. All that harshness is true about the Law. It just that the story doesn't have to end there.

You sound very much like the disciples upon hearing Jesus say that it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. (Speaking of harsh Law!) Their reaction: "Who, then, can be saved?"

Jesus's answer: "With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

We can be saved not by relying on our own righteousness (lawkeeping), but by relying on that of Jesus, whose righteousness is accounted as our own.
Correct. If all you preach is a God of love and kindness is it not inevitable that people will start to ask from what is it then that I need to be saved?

And it would seem that a lot of people are asking that question nowadays, at least in developed countries where Christianity is in decline.
Sounds like we're all in agreement, then. I don't want to speak for Mountaineer, but I'm pretty sure he'll agree with what you and I have both said, quoted above.

[That is, we're agreed except possibly for the token Mormon. :-) Glad you chimed in, Kbg, seriously.]
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:49 am

Kbg wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:06 am
jacksonM wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:02 pm
Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:56 pm
Yeah, pretty major hammer. Balance would suggest you also quote verses 1-14. And oh yeah, the next chapter puts it all in context which I always find to be useful information. Arguably, the hammer came down as described. Pick one, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans. Any would likely do for fulfilling the prophecy.

The theological question...was this a covenant with just the Children of Israel as the chosen people or does it extend to all humanity?

Luke 12:48 as a New Testament reference point for thinking about the above (not that they are related).
I was contrasting the Lutheran pastor's depiction of the way God really feels about those who disobey his laws with what is actually portrayed in the Bible so I didn't see any point in quoting the blessings in verses 1-14. The idea of laws being like signs to keep you from going over a cliff while God passively watches just doesn't comport with the Biblical picture as I read it. It's more like, "If you don't do what I say I am going to get really, really pissed off and I'll not only push you off the cliff I will drop a big bolder on top of you and let the worms eat your body". I could have probably found another hundred examples of this (and they aren't all in the Old Testament).

Don't get me wrong. I much prefer the kindler, gentler version of God but I think he's mostly an invention of modern Christianity. It would be better for the world if Muslims would follow the same path.
By way of full disclosure I'm a Latter-Day Saint and our theology and doctrine is, on some significant points, decidedly different from mainstream Christianity. One for example, is that we believe in continuing prophetic revelation. Accordingly, a moving doctrinal/theological target is something we accept as quite normal and indeed part of the plan of a loving God who tailors His message to the people who exist at the time of revelation. Logically, I think most people would conclude that human understanding, culture and belief systems are decidedly different from those that existed 2500ish years ago. God doesn't change, but we do.
Also by way of full disclosure I am an ex-Christian and was actually an ordained Southern Baptist minister for a short time - though I always kept my day job (like Paul). We believed Latter Day Saints weren't true Christians, of course. Also Catholics, liberal denominations, etc.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:15 pm

Xan wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:42 am
jacksonM wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:37 am
Xan wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:39 pm
A good Lutheran pastor absolutely should treat the Law the way you describe. All that harshness is true about the Law. It just that the story doesn't have to end there.

You sound very much like the disciples upon hearing Jesus say that it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. (Speaking of harsh Law!) Their reaction: "Who, then, can be saved?"

Jesus's answer: "With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

We can be saved not by relying on our own righteousness (lawkeeping), but by relying on that of Jesus, whose righteousness is accounted as our own.
Correct. If all you preach is a God of love and kindness is it not inevitable that people will start to ask from what is it then that I need to be saved?

And it would seem that a lot of people are asking that question nowadays, at least in developed countries where Christianity is in decline.
Sounds like we're all in agreement, then. I don't want to speak for Mountaineer, but I'm pretty sure he'll agree with what you and I have both said, quoted above.

[That is, we're agreed except possibly for the token Mormon. :-) Glad you chimed in, Kbg, seriously.]
O0 Xan, you may always feel free to speak for me; just don't screw it up. ;) By the way, if you want to see some Mountaineer religion, watch the end of the WV - Texas football game this past weekend. ;D

I'm also glad for Kbg's comments, as well as all who have commented on this thread. This thread is more civil than many "religious focused" forums I've seen. Ditto for the various politics threads.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Kbg » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:23 pm

Thanks for the hand of fellowship extended to the pagan anti-Christ. ;)

Good to be a part of the discussion. When religious threads go negative I simply leave as I don't see the point. While I've held on to my faith since I was a teenager I've always felt I needed to engage with science, secular philosophy and my own church's history and theological evolution and doctrines. In many areas I can probably take the other side of a debate as well as anyone. I've always figured if I couldn't stand the heat then I probably didn't have deep enough roots. I don't really do that too much anymore as after a while you don't run into anything new and when it comes to science it is quite easy as a Latter Day Saint to have a foot in both camps. Ultimately my faith is and remains based on a very specific spiritual experience I had while I was a teenager. But more than anything as my faith and knowledge has deepened I think Christ's teachings in the NT are pretty clear as to what the expectations are for those who follow Him. Definitely in my top 10 NT passages: Matthew 25: 31-46. I've always found it intriguing how those on the right were surprised at their reward while those who "knew Him" were on the left and found lacking.

His message and teachings are simple and easy to understand for every one. And anyone who has even a basic understanding of how the Bible came to be understands there was a lot of "message shaping" going on for the several hundred years of its creation until it settled in the form and content we have now.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by InsuranceGuy » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:53 am

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:25 am

Kbg wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:23 pm
Thanks for the hand of fellowship extended to the pagan anti-Christ. ;)

Good to be a part of the discussion. When religious threads go negative I simply leave as I don't see the point. While I've held on to my faith since I was a teenager I've always felt I needed to engage with science, secular philosophy and my own church's history and theological evolution and doctrines. In many areas I can probably take the other side of a debate as well as anyone. I've always figured if I couldn't stand the heat then I probably didn't have deep enough roots. I don't really do that too much anymore as after a while you don't run into anything new and when it comes to science it is quite easy as a Latter Day Saint to have a foot in both camps. Ultimately my faith is and remains based on a very specific spiritual experience I had while I was a teenager. But more than anything as my faith and knowledge has deepened I think Christ's teachings in the NT are pretty clear as to what the expectations are for those who follow Him. Definitely in my top 10 NT passages: Matthew 25: 31-46. I've always found it intriguing how those on the right were surprised at their reward while those who "knew Him" were on the left and found lacking.

His message and teachings are simple and easy to understand for every one. And anyone who has even a basic understanding of how the Bible came to be understands there was a lot of "message shaping" going on for the several hundred years of its creation until it settled in the form and content we have now.
Ironically I've found the Bible to be a much more interesting book now that I'm able to look at it without all of the religious dogma. The "message shaping" in the gospels is a very good example. If you cling to the belief that the Bible is the inerrant word of God then you have to resolve all the discrepancies and contradictions to make one cohesive story out of it and it just never seems to work no matter how hard you try. You start with Mark which has no birth narrative and ends abruptly with two females discovering an empty tomb but not telling anyone out of fear (the snake-handling, tongue-talking verses at the end are generally considered inauthentic). Then along comes Matthew and Luke copying Mark almost word for word in many places but also supplying the missing birth narratives including detailed genealogies and also post resurrection appearances. Unfortunately, the narratives are impossible to reconcile without great mental gymnastics. Finally, you have John which is a horse of a completely different color. The apocalyptic warnings of the synoptic gospels are replaced with Jesus making statements about his own divinity which the authors of Mark, Matthew, and Luke apparently failed to take notice of.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:30 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:25 am
Kbg wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:23 pm
Thanks for the hand of fellowship extended to the pagan anti-Christ. ;)

Good to be a part of the discussion. When religious threads go negative I simply leave as I don't see the point. While I've held on to my faith since I was a teenager I've always felt I needed to engage with science, secular philosophy and my own church's history and theological evolution and doctrines. In many areas I can probably take the other side of a debate as well as anyone. I've always figured if I couldn't stand the heat then I probably didn't have deep enough roots. I don't really do that too much anymore as after a while you don't run into anything new and when it comes to science it is quite easy as a Latter Day Saint to have a foot in both camps. Ultimately my faith is and remains based on a very specific spiritual experience I had while I was a teenager. But more than anything as my faith and knowledge has deepened I think Christ's teachings in the NT are pretty clear as to what the expectations are for those who follow Him. Definitely in my top 10 NT passages: Matthew 25: 31-46. I've always found it intriguing how those on the right were surprised at their reward while those who "knew Him" were on the left and found lacking.

His message and teachings are simple and easy to understand for every one. And anyone who has even a basic understanding of how the Bible came to be understands there was a lot of "message shaping" going on for the several hundred years of its creation until it settled in the form and content we have now.
Ironically I've found the Bible to be a much more interesting book now that I'm able to look at it without all of the religious dogma. The "message shaping" in the gospels is a very good example. If you cling to the belief that the Bible is the inerrant word of God then you have to resolve all the discrepancies and contradictions to make one cohesive story out of it and it just never seems to work no matter how hard you try. You start with Mark which has no birth narrative and ends abruptly with two females discovering an empty tomb but not telling anyone out of fear (the snake-handling, tongue-talking verses at the end are generally considered inauthentic). Then along comes Matthew and Luke copying Mark almost word for word in many places but also supplying the missing birth narratives including detailed genealogies and also post resurrection appearances. Unfortunately, the narratives are impossible to reconcile without great mental gymnastics. Finally, you have John which is a horse of a completely different color. The apocalyptic warnings of the synoptic gospels are replaced with Jesus making statements about his own divinity which the authors of Mark, Matthew, and Luke apparently failed to take notice of.
The bolded sentence above intrigues me. I do believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God revealed to us to tell us about the need for a Savior (OT) and what the Savior did (NT). I've never viewed it as something with a bunch of discrepancies and contadictions; I've always thought it was my problem and not God's if I did not understand something and then studied a lot to learn more. It's interesting to me that the more I've studied, the more the Scriptures seem a cohesive whole and the more they make sense. For example, I think the 4 Gospels are written by 4 different people; if they all said exactly the same thing I'd think the story was likely cooked rather than the same events being described by 4 different points of view. I fully agree that we cannot by our reason explain doctrines such as the Trinity, the resurrection, the two natures of Christ. I've also pretty much always thought the Bible was authored by God and written by men and says exactly what God wanted to be said with the main points being "Man screwed up in Genesis 3 (the fall and subsequent curse) and spent the rest of the OT trying various ways to save himself, unsuccessfully; thus the need for a savior. I am forgiven because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross and God sees my sins no more; I am saved and will spend eternity on the new earth with a new perfect body/soul in the perfect presence of God". If I understood everything that God authored, I'd be putting myself on the same plane as God (the original sin of Genesis 3) and there would be little or no reason for faith. I think if the resurrection is ever disproven we can pack up our bags and throw in the towell; all the Bible would be then is a guide or self-help book on moral living just like the other major religions have - no Savior Jesus.

So, given my brief take which I explained above, and yours, would you unpack your sentence I bolded above a bit more? I'd appreciate better understanding why you have the view you do. I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm not going to browbeat you regardless of how you answer, I just want to understand. Thanks in advance if you choose to respond or if you do not.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:18 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:30 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:25 am
Kbg wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:23 pm
Thanks for the hand of fellowship extended to the pagan anti-Christ. ;)

Good to be a part of the discussion. When religious threads go negative I simply leave as I don't see the point. While I've held on to my faith since I was a teenager I've always felt I needed to engage with science, secular philosophy and my own church's history and theological evolution and doctrines. In many areas I can probably take the other side of a debate as well as anyone. I've always figured if I couldn't stand the heat then I probably didn't have deep enough roots. I don't really do that too much anymore as after a while you don't run into anything new and when it comes to science it is quite easy as a Latter Day Saint to have a foot in both camps. Ultimately my faith is and remains based on a very specific spiritual experience I had while I was a teenager. But more than anything as my faith and knowledge has deepened I think Christ's teachings in the NT are pretty clear as to what the expectations are for those who follow Him. Definitely in my top 10 NT passages: Matthew 25: 31-46. I've always found it intriguing how those on the right were surprised at their reward while those who "knew Him" were on the left and found lacking.

His message and teachings are simple and easy to understand for every one. And anyone who has even a basic understanding of how the Bible came to be understands there was a lot of "message shaping" going on for the several hundred years of its creation until it settled in the form and content we have now.
Ironically I've found the Bible to be a much more interesting book now that I'm able to look at it without all of the religious dogma. The "message shaping" in the gospels is a very good example. If you cling to the belief that the Bible is the inerrant word of God then you have to resolve all the discrepancies and contradictions to make one cohesive story out of it and it just never seems to work no matter how hard you try. You start with Mark which has no birth narrative and ends abruptly with two females discovering an empty tomb but not telling anyone out of fear (the snake-handling, tongue-talking verses at the end are generally considered inauthentic). Then along comes Matthew and Luke copying Mark almost word for word in many places but also supplying the missing birth narratives including detailed genealogies and also post resurrection appearances. Unfortunately, the narratives are impossible to reconcile without great mental gymnastics. Finally, you have John which is a horse of a completely different color. The apocalyptic warnings of the synoptic gospels are replaced with Jesus making statements about his own divinity which the authors of Mark, Matthew, and Luke apparently failed to take notice of.
The bolded sentence above intrigues me. I do believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God revealed to us to tell us about the need for a Savior (OT) and what the Savior did (NT). I've never viewed it as something with a bunch of discrepancies and contadictions; I've always thought it was my problem and not God's if I did not understand something and then studied a lot to learn more. It's interesting to me that the more I've studied, the more the Scriptures seem a cohesive whole and the more they make sense. For example, I think the 4 Gospels are written by 4 different people; if they all said exactly the same thing I'd think the story was likely cooked rather than the same events being described by 4 different points of view. I fully agree that we cannot by our reason explain doctrines such as the Trinity, the resurrection, the two natures of Christ. I've also pretty much always thought the Bible was authored by God and written by men and says exactly what God wanted to be said with the main points being "Man screwed up in Genesis 3 (the fall and subsequent curse) and spent the rest of the OT trying various ways to save himself, unsuccessfully; thus the need for a savior. I am forgiven because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross and God sees my sins no more; I am saved and will spend eternity on the new earth with a new perfect body/soul in the perfect presence of God". If I understood everything that God authored, I'd be putting myself on the same plane as God (the original sin of Genesis 3) and there would be little or no reason for faith. I think if the resurrection is ever disproven we can pack up our bags and throw in the towell; all the Bible would be then is a guide or self-help book on moral living just like the other major religions have - no Savior Jesus.

So, given my brief take which I explained above, and yours, would you unpack your sentence I bolded above a bit more? I'd appreciate better understanding why you have the view you do. I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm not going to browbeat you regardless of how you answer, I just want to understand. Thanks in advance if you choose to respond or if you do not.
There's no way to disprove the resurrection so I think Christianity will forever be safe on that point.

As for the discrepancies and contradictions in the gospels, they are well documented on the Internet so I'm not going to list them all here. And also with Google as your friend I know you can find answers from Christian apologists to help you resolve a lot of them. Sometimes the apologists make good points and sometimes they are right in claiming that the contradictions are trivial. Sometimes however, they seem to be really stretching.

For example, why are the genealogies in Matthew and Luke completely different? I remember the very first time I read them I wondered that so I looked it up somewhere in the pre-internet age and learned that one was Mary's genealogy and one was Joseph's. I thought exactly the way you do at the time so I said okay, that's good enough for me. I don't know how they are being reconciled today because I haven't looked in a long time.

Another example would be why the gospel of John has Jesus crucified on a different day than the other three gospels. The obvious reason to me is that John was trying to make the theological point that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of God so he had him crucified at the same time as the passover lamb. In other words, the story just told better that way.

If you say these things don't really matter because they don't take away from the main theme of the story then I completely agree with you. My problem is with the cognitive dissonance of the claim that the Bible is "inerrant". It's just something that doesn't compute in my brain.
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