Figuring Out Religion

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Jack Jones
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Jack Jones » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:58 am

Maddy wrote:"Damn, I forgot to buy milk when I was in town. . . You're a real dumbshit. . . Gophers are totally tearing up the pasture. One more thing to do tonight. . . Oh shit, the dog threw up on the floor."
Haha, good stuff. Mind at work, dredging up the past, worrying about the future, even some self-criticism thrown in for good measure. Thanks for sharing that. Even the ordinary workings of the mind are interesting. Where do these thoughts come from? They just seem to bubble up from inside, for me at least.
Pointedstick wrote:
Jack Jones wrote:http://aromeditation.org/
If you like this, you may be interested in more from the same author: http://meaningness.com/
Ah very cool, wasn't aware it was the same guy. I had previously dipped my toes into meaningness.com, but lost momentum at some of the drier parts. I'll pick up where I left off due to your recommendation.
Pointedstick wrote:I figured it out--for myself, at least. The answers aren't found here, though. They're already inside of you, and all religion does is help you find what's already there.
Agreed. My take is that all religions start by way of mystical experience or experiential insight. Some dude was walking through the forest, and a bush started talking to him. Or some guy spent some time sitting under a tree until he gained some profound insight.

So these guys go tell their friends, and they want their friends to experience the same thing, and then those followers want to help others have the same experience. Some folks say, hey we should really write this stuff down. Years go by with people studying the writings, but some mistake the finger pointing at the moon (the writings) for the moon (the experiential insight). Some folks decide they should dress up in funny hats or robes for one reason or another. Maybe it started as a practical matter: they got tired of deciding what to wear each day. Eventually the whole song and dance becomes something you can interact with and understand at a conceptual level without ever having the experience that started the whole thing.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:02 pm

Pointedstick wrote:I figured it out--for myself, at least. The answers aren't found here, though. They're already inside of you, and all religion does is help you find what's already there.
Very true.

Do we really need religion to tell us it's wrong to kill each other?

Or that slavery is wrong (Whoops - religion, at least "Biblical" religion didn't tell us that, did it?)
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:43 pm

farjean2 wrote: Very true.

Do we really need religion to tell us it's wrong to kill each other?

Or that slavery is wrong (Whoops - religion, at least "Biblical" religion didn't tell us that, did it?)
It's silly to pick on Judeo-Christianity. All religions have to be put in a historical context; 5,000 years ago (even 2,000 years ago, or 300 years ago!), anti-slavery wasn't a common social more. Today it is. That's why comparatively newer religions--like Sikhism--do in fact frown on slavery and the like.

The old testament is a lousy source of absolute moral rules. There aren't just the 10 commandments; there are 613 more! Following them all is impossible. A great many don't apply today because they refer to social institutions that no longer exist, or even contradict entrenched current customs (e.g. no lending with interest).

That doesn't make the old testament wrong. It makes it a historical document, showing us how an ancient people thought and acted. The spiritual power is not found in those rules. they are found in the mythic figures themselves and what they represent: Moses, Abraham, Jesus; wisdom, strength, trust, leadership, healing. I think a lot of Christians get so caught up in the administrivia of salvation that they put precious little focus on Jesus' actual earthly message, which was (and is) completely antithetical to the way most people are taught to live their lives. It is a message of utter humility, and even reversal in how the downtrodden are elevated and the powerful chastised. Many Christians consider this a platonic ideal that is impossible to live up to, and settle for the quick and easy path of promised eternal life through simply believing in Jesus as lord and savior, sometimes with a side helping of selective old testament rule-following. But if that's all that matters, what was the point of all Jesus' sermonizing? He was a reformer!

On this subject, I recommend Franciscan friar Richard Rohr's daily meditations: https://cac.org/category/daily-meditations/
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:19 pm

Pointedstick wrote: It's silly to pick on Judeo-Christianity.
It's the only religion I feel knowledgeable enough about to pick on so it will have to do. Due to being steeped in it for many years I know quite a bit (I'm sure certain folks will tell me I know nothing about "true" Christianity).
Pointedstick wrote: I think a lot of Christians get so caught up in the administrivia of salvation that they put precious little focus on Jesus' actual earthly message, which was (and is) completely antithetical to the way most people are taught to live their lives.
Right. I've never known a Christian who turns the other cheek. The natural inclination is to hit back even harder (I see that in this forum, BTW). Never knew one who settled a lawsuit by giving the person even more than he was asking for. Or plucked out his eye because of his addiction to pornography.
Pointedstick wrote: It is a message of utter humility, and even reversal in how the downtrodden are elevated and the powerful chastised.
I believe that the Jesus of scriptures was primarily an apocalyptic preacher and that this is very clear in the gospels. That's why he taught the things he did. If you believe the end is near and God is going to be coming down soon to set things in order then telling people to go sell all they have and give it to the poor makes more sense.
Pointedstick wrote: He was a reformer!
If that's what you want to be, then do it. If you want to be a selfless, compassionate and humble person then strive for it. You don't need to follow Jesus to do this. But if it floats your boat go for it. Just please don't start telling me I'm going to a place called hell to suffer eternal torment if I choose not to follow the "reformer" of your imagination.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:00 pm

Some thoughts on prayer... Prompted by briefly catching Hannity on Fox the other night in which he spoke about an upcoming religious movie of which he is an executive producer. There were some clips showing what it is all about and I probably don't understand the whole story but the gist of what I saw seemed to be that someone was questioning their belief in God because he didn't answer their prayers. In the little clip that was shown somebody told him that God always answers our prayers - it's just that sometimes we don't always understand how he does it.

Believe it or not, I really hate to be so negative about religion but of all the things that come out of Christians mouths that is one of the most delusional and stupid statements I can think of. I call it "heads God wins, tails you lose". So if you pray for God to watch over your kids on their way to school in the morning and one of them happens to get hit by a car and killed - well that was God answering your prayer - you just didn't understand his higher purpose. He may need to test you like in the book of Job.

For the record, that example isn't something that happened to me and if you think I'm bitter at God over some failure to answer some specific prayer then I'm sorry to disappoint you because I can't think of one. It's just a rational observation that I've made over the years causing me to come to the conclusion that it is far more mentally healthy to simply believe that there is no god listening to your prayers than to try to rationalize it in the utterly ridiculous way that Christians do. A turning point may have been when I was on a Christian forum when an urgent prayer request went out because a small child had overturned a fryer on themselves suffering severe burns all over his body. Summoning human beings to have compassion on the boy and his parents made perfect sense. Belief that maybe God could be awakened with enough prayer to possibly do something to intervene after the fact didn't make a lick of sense. And still doesn't.

In that Hannity movie I suspect that it will end with the doubting Thomas having a sublime experience that finally causes him to believe. This could possibly happen to me too, I suppose. I accepted religion when I was young and it is possible I will do so again when I'm old and senile, something approaching faster than I "pray".

But I doubt it.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:18 pm

Desert wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
buddtholomew wrote:Has anyone figured it out yet? >:D
It all depends on the definition of "it". ;D
Do you remember all the "I Found It" bumper stickers from the late 1970's? ;)
Yeah I remember those but there were also stickers to go on your shirt. I wore one to work where I was conducting a Bible study that people were attending on their breaks.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:27 pm

farjean2 wrote:Some thoughts on prayer...
You're in that awkward chasm where you've seen through Religion 1.0 and have chosen to throw out the burning wreckage rather than double down (Evangelical Christian and Orthodox Jewish approach) or try to reconcile it with science (mainline Prostestant and reform Jewish approach)--both of which look ridiculous and don't work, so it's an understandable impulse.

You can never go back to blissful ignorance, though. You've eaten the fruit. So now I think it may help to treat Christianity like Greek or Norse myths. Forget about whether or not any of it is literally true. It doesn't matter--any more than it matters if Loki or Athena actually existed or whether their rituals really brought rain or smote one's enemies. What matters is whether or not they can help unlock spiritual power within yourself that's gotten locked away since you lost your faith in the kiddie cartoon religion you were practicing before. Ask yourself: is Jesus a figure worth listening to and emulating? Not Jesus the apocalypse preacher in your mind, but the Jesus as generally presented in the new testament. Is that guy someone you could see enriching your life to emulate? Maybe not, but it's still an interesting exercise.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:48 pm

Pointedstick wrote: What matters is whether or not they can help unlock spiritual power within yourself that's gotten locked away since you lost your faith in the kiddie cartoon religion you were practicing before. Ask yourself: is Jesus a figure worth listening to and emulating? Not Jesus the apocalypse preacher in your mind, but the Jesus as generally presented in the new testament. Is that guy someone you could see enriching your life to emulate? Maybe not, but it's still an interesting exercise.
Jesus, as generally presented in the New Testament WAS an apocalyptic preacher and this isn't just in my mind. It's been the consensus of New Testament scholars much smarter and learned than me since at least the times of the writings of Albert Schweitzer on the Historical Jesus. I'm sure you can read the four gospels for yourself and come to your own conclusions.

Is Jesus a figure worth listening to and emulating? See Albert Schweitzer. I think you'd be hard pressed to find somebody who led a more Christ-like life, depending on how you define the the term, than he did despite what he came to believe on the subject.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Maddy » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:32 pm

Pointedstick wrote:. . . rather than double down (Evangelical Christian and Orthodox Jewish approach)
A nicely-chosen metaphor that resonates plenty.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:11 pm

farjean2 wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: What matters is whether or not they can help unlock spiritual power within yourself that's gotten locked away since you lost your faith in the kiddie cartoon religion you were practicing before. Ask yourself: is Jesus a figure worth listening to and emulating? Not Jesus the apocalypse preacher in your mind, but the Jesus as generally presented in the new testament. Is that guy someone you could see enriching your life to emulate? Maybe not, but it's still an interesting exercise.
Jesus, as generally presented in the New Testament WAS an apocalyptic preacher and this isn't just in my mind. It's been the consensus of New Testament scholars much smarter and learned than me since at least the times of the writings of Albert Schweitzer on the Historical Jesus. I'm sure you can read the four gospels for yourself and come to your own conclusions.
It's hard for me to imagine that there's any kind of consensus, given how many sects of Christianity there are, but I'll take your word for it. You're clearly more knowledgeable on the subject than I.

Regardless, I've found a version of Jesus that I like. Again, the truth is irrelevant. Did Jesus ever even exist? Was he anything at all like he's depicted, or is that all a bunch of post-hoc mythmaking? Who knows. It doesn't matter to me. I think the idea that religion is about absolute factual truth is a notion that's terribly damaging to a religion itself, as well as its practitioners, causing the smart to twist themselves in mental knots and turning the dim into blind zealots.

And I know that it may sound like I'm a Christian now, but I'm really not. I'm just collecting admirable mythological figures from the world's religions to add to my head-pantheon, and to me, Jesus deserves a place.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:46 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
farjean2 wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: What matters is whether or not they can help unlock spiritual power within yourself that's gotten locked away since you lost your faith in the kiddie cartoon religion you were practicing before. Ask yourself: is Jesus a figure worth listening to and emulating? Not Jesus the apocalypse preacher in your mind, but the Jesus as generally presented in the new testament. Is that guy someone you could see enriching your life to emulate? Maybe not, but it's still an interesting exercise.
Jesus, as generally presented in the New Testament WAS an apocalyptic preacher and this isn't just in my mind. It's been the consensus of New Testament scholars much smarter and learned than me since at least the times of the writings of Albert Schweitzer on the Historical Jesus. I'm sure you can read the four gospels for yourself and come to your own conclusions.
It's hard for me to imagine that there's any kind of consensus, given how many sects of Christianity there are, but I'll take your word for it. You're clearly more knowledgeable on the subject than I.

Regardless, I've found a version of Jesus that I like. Again, the truth is irrelevant. Did Jesus ever even exist? Was he anything at all like he's depicted, or is that all a bunch of post-hoc mythmaking? Who knows. It doesn't matter to me. I think the idea that religion is about absolute factual truth is a notion that's terribly damaging to a religion itself, as well as its practitioners, causing the smart to twist themselves in mental knots and turning the dim into blind zealots.

And I know that it may sound like I'm a Christian now, but I'm really not. I'm just collecting admirable mythological figures from the world's religions to add to my head-pantheon, and to me, Jesus deserves a place.
When I said "consensus of New Testament scholarship" I meant those in academia with no bias on the subject. Obviously, true Christian believers are nearly unanimous in disagreement with that consensus.

I've always believed that people tend to see what they want to see in Jesus and just ignore or rationalize what they don't like.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Pointedstick » Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:22 pm

farjean2 wrote: I've always believed that people tend to see what they want to see in Jesus and just ignore or rationalize what they don't like.
Not just Jesus; every public, heroic, or mythological figure. I suspect we're biologically hardwired for it.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:26 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
farjean2 wrote: I've always believed that people tend to see what they want to see in Jesus and just ignore or rationalize what they don't like.
Not just Jesus; every public, heroic, or mythological figure. I suspect we're biologically hardwired for it.
Yes, indeed. I wonder if it's related to the evolutionary instinct for "survival of the fittest".

I've always made heroes out of sports figures. Jim Brown was my hero growing up and I'm a big fan of Tom Brady today. You see this in debates about which sports figure was/is the GOAT (greatest of all time). Always makes me wonder why it is we feel we have to anoint one person and one person alone with the official title.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Maddy » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:30 pm

farjean2 wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
farjean2 wrote: I've always believed that people tend to see what they want to see in Jesus and just ignore or rationalize what they don't like. . . .
That's just as often true with respect to the ideologically and politically anti-religious. You know, I sometimes think that if you excised the red text from the Gospels and attributed the words to some guru named Swami Vishnu, their response would be, "Yeah, man, that's' heavy."

Maybe that would make a good video for that undercover conservative guy who goes around interviewing college students and west-coasters on roller skates, proposing outlandish ideas that his unsuspecting victims eagerly endorse because they're presented in "progressive speak."
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:32 pm

farjean2 wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
farjean2 wrote: I've always believed that people tend to see what they want to see in Jesus and just ignore or rationalize what they don't like.
Not just Jesus; every public, heroic, or mythological figure. I suspect we're biologically hardwired for it.
Yes, indeed. I wonder if it's related to the evolutionary instinct for "survival of the fittest".

I've always made heroes out of sports figures. Jim Brown was my hero growing up and I'm a big fan of Tom Brady today. You see this in debates about which sports figure was/is the GOAT (greatest of all time). Always makes me wonder why it is we feel we have to anoint one person and one person alone with the official title.
Sam Huff. I’m biased, he is my uncle. 8)
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:39 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
farjean2 wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: Not just Jesus; every public, heroic, or mythological figure. I suspect we're biologically hardwired for it.
Yes, indeed. I wonder if it's related to the evolutionary instinct for "survival of the fittest".

I've always made heroes out of sports figures. Jim Brown was my hero growing up and I'm a big fan of Tom Brady today. You see this in debates about which sports figure was/is the GOAT (greatest of all time). Always makes me wonder why it is we feel we have to anoint one person and one person alone with the official title.
Sam Huff. I’m biased, he is my uncle. 8)
Cool! I remember an anecdote from Jim Brown talking about Sam Huff. He said he got a good hit on him in a game and Sam said "you stink Brown". The next play Brown ripped one for a touchdown and as he crossed the goal line he yelled back "How do I smell from hear Sammy"? So the next time you see your uncle ask him if that's a true story and let me know.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:57 pm

farjean2 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
farjean2 wrote:
Yes, indeed. I wonder if it's related to the evolutionary instinct for "survival of the fittest".

I've always made heroes out of sports figures. Jim Brown was my hero growing up and I'm a big fan of Tom Brady today. You see this in debates about which sports figure was/is the GOAT (greatest of all time). Always makes me wonder why it is we feel we have to anoint one person and one person alone with the official title.
Sam Huff. I’m biased, he is my uncle. 8)
Cool! I remember an anecdote from Jim Brown talking about Sam Huff. He said he got a good hit on him in a game and Sam said "you stink Brown". The next play Brown ripped one for a touchdown and as he crossed the goal line he yelled back "How do I smell from hear Sammy"? So the next time you see your uncle ask him if that's a true story and let me know.
Ok, but it may be awhile. Have not seen him for several years - we do not live close. And I think he has Alzheimer’s. Sad. Too many hits perhaps. He did have lots of stories about the reality of pro football in the 60s that would make you shudder in today’s snowflake world. They were tough old birds.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Greg » Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:08 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
farjean2 wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: What matters is whether or not they can help unlock spiritual power within yourself that's gotten locked away since you lost your faith in the kiddie cartoon religion you were practicing before. Ask yourself: is Jesus a figure worth listening to and emulating? Not Jesus the apocalypse preacher in your mind, but the Jesus as generally presented in the new testament. Is that guy someone you could see enriching your life to emulate? Maybe not, but it's still an interesting exercise.
Jesus, as generally presented in the New Testament WAS an apocalyptic preacher and this isn't just in my mind. It's been the consensus of New Testament scholars much smarter and learned than me since at least the times of the writings of Albert Schweitzer on the Historical Jesus. I'm sure you can read the four gospels for yourself and come to your own conclusions.
It's hard for me to imagine that there's any kind of consensus, given how many sects of Christianity there are, but I'll take your word for it. You're clearly more knowledgeable on the subject than I.

Regardless, I've found a version of Jesus that I like. Again, the truth is irrelevant. Did Jesus ever even exist? Was he anything at all like he's depicted, or is that all a bunch of post-hoc mythmaking? Who knows. It doesn't matter to me. I think the idea that religion is about absolute factual truth is a notion that's terribly damaging to a religion itself, as well as its practitioners, causing the smart to twist themselves in mental knots and turning the dim into blind zealots.

And I know that it may sound like I'm a Christian now, but I'm really not. I'm just collecting admirable mythological figures from the world's religions to add to my head-pantheon, and to me, Jesus deserves a place.
If interested Pointedstick (or to anyone else for that matter), I did a presentation on this to some members of my church last month on some of the historical data on Jesus. If interested you can take a look (hopefully this link works): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1SRh ... FVOUU5mR1k.

Here's also some information on Albert Schweitzer's opinions if interested. http://www.reasonablefaith.org/q-a-was-jesus-wrong

As always, I think all of us are just trying to find truth, we all just have different methods/sources/references we use to try to get there. We're all on the same side and I very much appreciate hearing others' viewpoints to help me to better understand my own. Like a muscle, you can never grow if you aren't stressed a bit/having your beliefs challenged.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:58 pm

Nice presentation, Greg. Kudos.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:20 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
farjean2 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
Sam Huff. I’m biased, he is my uncle. 8)
Cool! I remember an anecdote from Jim Brown talking about Sam Huff. He said he got a good hit on him in a game and Sam said "you stink Brown". The next play Brown ripped one for a touchdown and as he crossed the goal line he yelled back "How do I smell from hear Sammy"? So the next time you see your uncle ask him if that's a true story and let me know.
Ok, but it may be awhile. Have not seen him for several years - we do not live close. And I think he has Alzheimer’s. Sad. Too many hits perhaps. He did have lots of stories about the reality of pro football in the 60s that would make you shudder in today’s snowflake world. They were tough old birds.
Sorry to hear that. I guess he would be pretty old by now any way. I haven't had an uncle still alive for at least 10 years.

Speaking of tough, the other Giant that comes to mind during those days of the Browns rivalry is Y.A. Tittle. That Sports Illustrated cover of him with a bloody head is a classic. Do you suppose he had a concussion from that?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:55 pm

farjean2 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
farjean2 wrote:
Cool! I remember an anecdote from Jim Brown talking about Sam Huff. He said he got a good hit on him in a game and Sam said "you stink Brown". The next play Brown ripped one for a touchdown and as he crossed the goal line he yelled back "How do I smell from hear Sammy"? So the next time you see your uncle ask him if that's a true story and let me know.
Ok, but it may be awhile. Have not seen him for several years - we do not live close. And I think he has Alzheimer’s. Sad. Too many hits perhaps. He did have lots of stories about the reality of pro football in the 60s that would make you shudder in today’s snowflake world. They were tough old birds.
Sorry to hear that. I guess he would be pretty old by now any way. I haven't had an uncle still alive for at least 10 years.

Speaking of tough, the other Giant that comes to mind during those days of the Browns rivalry is Y.A. Tittle. That Sports Illustrated cover of him with a bloody head is a classic. Do you suppose he had a concussion from that?
I had not thought of Y. A. Tittle for quite sometime. I never did see my uncle play when he was with the Giants. I did see one when he was playing with the Redskins, Sonny Jurgensen was the quarterback and they played the Dallas Cowboys in RFK stadium. I had a sidelines pass and I remember seeing Bob Hays up close and personal a couple of times - another awesome player. I did get to attend the Hall of Fame 1982 induction ceremony for Sam in Canton, Ohio. Those were the days. Check out this old picture of Sam (listed as a defensive linebacker, he played most of his career as middle linebacker) - just a slight change in their looks back then vs. Colin Caepernick, or Richard Sherman, or actually most of them these days. The Times They Are A-Changin' - Bob Dylan ;) Also, look at his 1955 picture when he was playing at West Virginia University - go Mountaineers! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Huff

Image
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:03 pm

Greg wrote: If interested Pointedstick (or to anyone else for that matter), I did a presentation on this to some members of my church last month on some of the historical data on Jesus. If interested you can take a look (hopefully this link works): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1SRh ... FVOUU5mR1k.
Nice website.

I think Christian apologetics can be a two-edged sword. If the target audience is those who just want some answers to help them maintain their faith and don't want to look too far under the covers it can be helpful for this purpose. That person can come away thinking that somebody smarter and more academically qualified than me has checked these things out and so there is no need for me to question any further.

For someone who is really taking a critical look at their beliefs however, I've found that reading Christian apologetics has the exact opposite effect and I'm far from alone in saying that. There is just too much playing fast and loose with the facts and jumping to conclusions not warranted by the data that it leaves you mistrusting any thing the apologists have to say.

In regards to the historical Jesus, I have no dog in the fight as to whether there was a real historical figure or not. I tend to believe that there was but once you no longer believe he is/was the Son of God it's a purely academic question that doesn't matter that much. I didn't check out all your links about evidence for a historical Jesus because I have already done this enough times to know that they are never what they are claimed to be. Here is Richard Carrier on the first one, Thallus .... https://infidels.org/library/modern/ric ... allus.html

You quote Bart Ehrman in support of a historical Jesus (and I've read his book on the subject) but I'd be willing to bet as a historian and New Testament scholar he would probably reject every one of your historical references. He has his own reasons for believing in a historical figure.

And also, BTW, there is something really fishy about your Josephus quote. I've never seen it quoted like that before.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:19 pm

Mountaineer wrote: Check out this old picture of Sam (listed as a defensive linebacker, he played most of his career as middle linebacker) - just a slight change in their looks back then vs. Colin Caepernick, or Richard Sherman, or actually most of them these days. The Times They Are A-Changin' - Bob Dylan ;) Also, look at his 1955 picture when he was playing at West Virginia University - go Mountaineers! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Huff
Better be careful there Mountaineer. Somebody might think you are a racist. At least my hero was Jim Brown so I'm off the hook in that regard.

Also was a big Dylan fan, before I even got the "Biblical" references in a lot of his lyrics.

Sunny Jurgenson was a real piece of work. He had a reputation for hard partying and drinking and I think there is even a story about how well he played showing up for work before a big game with a hangover one day. My kind of hero.

My own brush with football greatness only includes seeing Vinny Testaverde at the Publix grocery store (he lived not far from me at the time but in a nicer neighborhood) and also Dan Marino at a restaurant in the same vicinity but only when he was retired and just getting into broadcasting.

I tried adding an image of the Y.A. Tittle photo I'm talking about via tiny pic but every one that I tried resulted in what you see below. Maybe the NFL got to them.....

Image

But here's a link any way.... http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0

(Edit: Just remembered I had another brush with NFL greatness. It was Joe Montana and it ties in much more with the subject of this thread. Will have to decide if I want to share it or not.)
Last edited by farjean2 on Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Greg
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Greg » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:21 pm

farjean2 wrote:
Greg wrote: If interested Pointedstick (or to anyone else for that matter), I did a presentation on this to some members of my church last month on some of the historical data on Jesus. If interested you can take a look (hopefully this link works): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1SRh ... FVOUU5mR1k.
Nice website.

I think Christian apologetics can be a two-edged sword. If the target audience is those who just want some answers to help them maintain their faith and don't want to look too far under the covers it can be helpful for this purpose. That person can come away thinking that somebody smarter and more academically qualified than me has checked these things out and so there is no need for me to question any further.

For someone who is really taking a critical look at their beliefs however, I've found that reading Christian apologetics has the exact opposite effect and I'm far from alone in saying that. There is just too much playing fast and loose with the facts and jumping to conclusions not warranted by the data that it leaves you mistrusting any thing the apologists have to say.

In regards to the historical Jesus, I have no dog in the fight as to whether there was a real historical figure or not. I tend to believe that there was but once you no longer believe he is/was the Son of God it's a purely academic question that doesn't matter that much. I didn't check out all your links about evidence for a historical Jesus because I have already done this enough times to know that they are never what they are claimed to be. Here is Richard Carrier on the first one, Thallus .... https://infidels.org/library/modern/ric ... allus.html

You quote Bart Ehrman in support of a historical Jesus (and I've read his book on the subject) but I'd be willing to bet as a historian and New Testament scholar he would probably reject every one of your historical references. He has his own reasons for believing in a historical figure.

And also, BTW, there is something really fishy about your Josephus quote. I've never seen it quoted like that before.
farjean2, thanks for the comments/compliment.

1.) Agreed, just because it is written in a book doesn't mean you should take it at face value. You should investigate things yourself until you feel comfortable with the subject material or you trust the people that are giving you information.

2.) I agree that perhaps we don't have the full story on the references we have, but they are what we've got for now. I've read some of Carrier's work and he certainly does seem like a smart guy. I would need to read more by him to get a more solid opinion but I've found various apologists that seem to give well-reasoned responses to most of the things that Carrier asserts. That being said, Bart has brought it up that a lot of history just comes down to probabilities of what is the probable thing of occurring. The more independent documents we have that speak about an event and the closer the document's creation date is to the date of the event, the higher probability that the documents are communicating about a real event. (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1SRh ... WlqYWplQnc) See slide #10

3.) I would think Bart would agree with perhaps some of the hostile historical references (Jewish and Pagan) just because he states a person named Jesus did exist (the concept of a historical Jesus). Where I think it gets into a divide is getting to the Christian-based documents such as the Bible, etc. that expand on these going from the natural realm mainly stated by the hostile references to a supernatural realm in the Bible. Bart as a historian is looking for naturalistic probabilities and I would think holds to his position because there are many other theories that can explain the evidence (even if only a tiny chance of it being true, <<1%) over a supernatural explanation which for him might be 0% or almost 0% (>0%).

4.) Agreed to the fishy Josephus quote. See my link from CARM on the Josephus Quote. I was quoting from the 10th-century Arabic quote. Whether this is acceptable is up for debate. (https://carm.org/regarding-quotes-histo ... bout-jesus).

Thanks again for the comments, I do appreciate them as they help me to refine my own faith and beliefs.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:11 pm

Greg wrote:Thanks again for the comments, I do appreciate them as they help me to refine my own faith and beliefs.
You're welcome. If you read Ehrman's book on the subject you might be surprised to learn that he thinks the best sources for proving that there was a historical Jesus are Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and the writings of Paul (well, maybe not so much John). As for the non-Biblical sources, I recall that he did have at least a chapter on the subject but didn't think much of any of them, including Josephus.

As for the Josephus thing if anybody wonders or cares what I was talking about in being skeptical of Greg's quote, the quote I remember reading from Josephus in not only Ehrman's book but also others didn't say that Jesus was believed to be the messiah by his followers. It said that Jesus WAS the messiah. If you don't know who Josephus was he has the distinction not shared with any of the New Testament characters in that he is a well established historical figure, as a Jewish historian. The quote about Jesus has always been highly questionable and believed to be an interpolation by a zealous Christian copier of his writings. The fact that he said Jesus WAS the messiah is only one reason for doubting but a major one. The only evidence there is of Josephus' religious persuasions are that he was a strict, orthodox Jew and he never would have made such a statement.

So the skepticism arises when Greg provides a quote watering down the statement to make it sound more historical. It may or may not be an accurate reflection of what Josephus said. I'm no expert on the subject. Just a skeptic.
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