Figuring Out Religion

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farjean2
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:15 pm

Mountaineer wrote:A modernist, a postmodernist, and a Lutheran walk into a bar.

The bartender asks the modernist, “What’ll you have?”

The modernist says, “First prove to me with rational certainty and scientific evidence that you can make me a good drink.” The bartender throws him out.

The bartender then asks the postmodernist, “What’ll you have?”

The postmodernist says, “You have no right to impose your personal tastes on me! I’ll construct my own drink.” The bartender throws him out.

The bartender asks the Lutheran, “What’ll you have?”

The Lutheran says, “Give me a beer.”

Read more at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/ ... nto-a-bar/
Well, that's something an atheist and a Lutheran can agree on.

But what a strange sounding word is "postmodernist". How is that even possible?
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by farjean2 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:22 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
farjean2 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Many of the rest of his commands were to show the futility of man being able to do them, and thus to help them see they needed to depend on Jesus alone.
Would you care to enlighten us all about how it is that you know what Jesus was thinking when he said things?
Sure. I study a lot and go to where the Word is faithfully preached.

Romans 10 (ESV)
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”


Footnotes from TLSB on Romans 10: 17 hearing. NT meanings include the act of hearing, the ear, or the message heard. The message is the meaning here. “Although the work is done and the forgiveness of sins is secured by the cross [John 19: 30], it cannot come to us in any other way than through the Word” (LC V 31). “It is God’s will that His Word should be heard and that a person’s ears should not be closed (Psalm 95:8). With this Word the Holy Spirit is present and opens hearts, so that people (like Lydia in Acts 16: 14) pay attention to it and are converted only through the Holy Spirit’s grace and power, who alone does the work of converting a person” (FC Ep II 5). word of Christ. The spoken word of the Gospel— the content being Christ— is a means by which God creates faith. “Repentance consists of two parts. One part is contrition, that is, terrors striking the conscience through the knowledge of sin. The other part is faith, which is born of the Gospel or the Absolution and believes that for Christ’s sake, sins are forgiven. It comforts the conscience and delivers it from terror. Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruit of repentance” (AC XII 3– 6). 10: 18 have they not heard? With this rhetorical question, Paul replies to an implied objection: the Israelites rejected the Gospel because not all had heard. Paul dismisses this excuse with a quotation from Ps 19: 4. all the earth  .  .  . world. As God makes known His presence and power in all creation, so the Gospel has been widely preached in the inhabited world.
Well, that all sounds like sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav to me.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:28 pm

farjean2 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:A modernist, a postmodernist, and a Lutheran walk into a bar.

The bartender asks the modernist, “What’ll you have?”

The modernist says, “First prove to me with rational certainty and scientific evidence that you can make me a good drink.” The bartender throws him out.

The bartender then asks the postmodernist, “What’ll you have?”

The postmodernist says, “You have no right to impose your personal tastes on me! I’ll construct my own drink.” The bartender throws him out.

The bartender asks the Lutheran, “What’ll you have?”

The Lutheran says, “Give me a beer.”

Read more at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/ ... nto-a-bar/
Well, that's something an atheist and a Lutheran can agree on.

But what a strange sounding word is "postmodernist". How is that even possible?
That's at least two things we agree on. 8)

Re. your postmodernist question: I am certainly no expert on this, but I've been told one way to look at our history is there are three major categories of thought (maybe it's philosophy, I can't remember for sure and I did not look it up):

premodern - basically a belief that God (or gods or spirits or demons or the like) is in control of events

modern - began with the age of the enlightenment, late 18th century, where science became very much in vogue - belief in truth and absolute right and wrong - things can be proven via science

postmodern - no absolute truths, truth is that which is true for me and that which is true for you and may be different - relativism - maybe a term would be truthiness instead of truth. Makes me think about how many times I hear the term "whatever" in response to a question or statement; I think that is a postmodern term.
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by farjean2 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:54 pm

farjean2 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
farjean2 wrote:A Biblical quote seems relevant at this point in the discussion..... from Deuteronomy 12



(Yahweh's not big on the whole religious tolerance thing)
Exactly. YHWH does not go for idol worship. I'm not so sure, however, that anyone is worshiping statues and monuments of Confederate soldiers; if so that is idolatry. There are many other false gods that are far more prevalent today than Confederate soldiers and the like.

Footnotes on Deuteronomy 12: 2– 4 Idolatrous worship would remain a constant temptation for God’s people (cf Is 57: 5– 7; Jer 2: 20). God gave the land for right worship. The defiling presence of idol worship was incompatible with the revelation of God’s holiness (cf Ac 19: 17– 20). 12: 3 pillars. 12: 4 in that way. Worship must be done in a way that is instituted by God’s Word. Luther: “All this He commands in order that in the worship of God the people may not be carried away by its own feeling, however holy and good, but may be governed by the Word; for if man does not live without the Word even with respect to the belly, how much less does he live without the Word in the work of God and in the spirit! God wants our conscience to be certain and sure that it is pleasing to Him. This cannot be done if the conscience is led by its own feeling, but only if it relies on the Word of God”.

The Lutheran Study Bible, Concordia Publishing House.
The last time I visited Washington D.C. I was struck by the idolatry that was on display in all the monuments. And that's really something coming from an atheist.

When you go into the Lincoln memorial there is even a sign that says to keep quiet because it is a solemn place. Same thing at Arlington cemetery. There is a sign informing you that these are hallowed grounds. I thought that it was only God who could say what was hallowed grounds and didn't know the shedding of man's blood in war could make it so.

This might be one thing you and I finally agree on.
I see Xan moved this to the religion thread which is a shame because I thought it really was pertinent to the discussion at hand.

To expound on what I was saying above however, on one end of the mall in D.C. you have the Washington monument, on the other is the Lincoln Memorial, and somewhere in the middle was a fairly recent monument built for F.D.R. So there you have it all - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - everything a person needs provided for you by the U.S. government.

Pretty cool observation from an atheist, don't you think?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by l82start » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:03 pm

i moved the posts not xan (just so the wrong person isn't blamed...)

long text walls of quoting scripture are only relevant to the few readers who see scripture as relevant to anything and everything, i understand they are of interest and relevant to a few so i don't delete them.. if you want to have a religious discussion of a topic that is GREAT... just please use quote, copy and paste to have that aspect of the discussion over here where it can find its audience without killing the flow in the original thread...

thank you
"Ghislaine Maxwell didn't kill herself"

“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”
Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:14 pm

l82start wrote:i moved the posts not xan (just so the wrong person isn't blamed...)

long text walls of quoting scripture are only relevant to the few readers who see scripture as relevant to anything and everything, i understand they are of interest and relevant to a few so i don't delete them.. if you want to have a religious discussion of a topic that is GREAT... just please use quote, copy and paste to have that aspect of the discussion over here where it can find its audience without killing the flow in the original thread...

thank you
I'll do my best. FWIW, it is a tough issue as to what thread things belong in. I struggled with where to put the Charlottesville info that farjean2 and I were discussing. If one views their god as that which gives meaning, identity and security and that in which they put their trust, it becomes very difficult to separate religion from most everything else. From my viewpoint, religion (matters of faith) and politics (matters of human relations) are inextricably related, but I also realize others do not see the synergism.

I'm guessing, however, in the context of this forum you equate religion with Christianity and do not view athiesism or self-assurance or faith in science as a religion no matter how "noisy" they get. I'd beg to differ but you are the moderator and I completely respect your power to define things the way you wish. Seriously. You have a tough job and I thank the moderators for what they contribute. Peace dude! O0
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:18 pm

l82start wrote:i moved the posts not xan (just so the wrong person isn't blamed...)

long text walls of quoting scripture are only relevant to the few readers who see scripture as relevant to anything and everything, i understand they are of interest and relevant to a few so i don't delete them.. if you want to have a religious discussion of a topic that is GREAT... just please use quote, copy and paste to have that aspect of the discussion over here where it can find its audience without killing the flow in the original thread...

thank you
Sorry. I did go back and see that. I just thought Xan owned the board now and assumed he was the one who did it.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by l82start » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:26 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
I'll do my best. FWIW, it is a tough issue as to what thread things belong in. I struggled with where to put the Charlottesville info that farjean2 and I were discussing. If one views their god as that which gives meaning, identity and security and that in which they put their trust, it becomes very difficult to separate religion from most everything else. From my viewpoint, religion (matters of faith) and politics (matters of human relations) are inextricably related, but I also realize others do not see the synergism.

I'm guessing, however, in the context of this forum you equate religion with Christianity and do not view athiesism or self-assurance or faith in science as a religion no matter how "noisy" they get. I'd beg to differ but you are the moderator and I completely respect your power to define things the way you wish. Seriously. You have a tough job and I thank the moderators for what they contribute. Peace dude! O0
it is a gray area and absolutely interrelated and a tough call to make, i prefer hands off moderation and move stuff around as rarely as i possibly can. i would use as a rule of thumb - if you feel compelled to quote scripture or your church catechisms (especially as a standalone response to a topic) it should be over here (Christian or any other), - if you can use your own words thoughts feelings to express your opinion i doubt it would ever hit my radar as needing to be moved..
"Ghislaine Maxwell didn't kill herself"

“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”
Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:36 pm

farjean2 wrote:
l82start wrote:i moved the posts not xan (just so the wrong person isn't blamed...)

long text walls of quoting scripture are only relevant to the few readers who see scripture as relevant to anything and everything, i understand they are of interest and relevant to a few so i don't delete them.. if you want to have a religious discussion of a topic that is GREAT... just please use quote, copy and paste to have that aspect of the discussion over here where it can find its audience without killing the flow in the original thread...

thank you
Sorry. I did go back and see that. I just thought Xan owned the board now and assumed he was the one who did it.
I'm hosting the place, but l82start and TennPaGa have been moderators for much longer than that. And they actually know what they're doing in terms of moderation: I do hosting and servers, but have never been much involved with an online forum before.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Desert » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:03 pm

farjean2 wrote:
Desert wrote:Here's a nice writing from 1928, by DuBois:
Robert E. Lee
Lee hesitated and hung his head in shame because he was asked to lead armies against human progress and Christian decency and did not dare refuse.
Pure Bullshit. The Apostle Paul made it very clear that slaves are to submit to their masters and the book of Philemon where he sent a slave back to his master was often quoted for justifying the fugitive slave act. I know you are a Christian so how do you go about reconciling the Bible as the "authoritative word of God" on the subject to the point that you can condemn Mr. Lee for supporting slavery?
(From the Charlottesville thread.)

Chattel slavery as practiced in our country and others differs from that in New Testament days. Here's a very brief article on the topic:
https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:53 am

I copied the post from the Charlottesville thread as my comments are getting into the religious understanding:

Desert wrote:
Xan wrote: The vast, vast majority of those lifeless bodies were on the Southern side of the border. Why is that? Because the South fought a defensive war against an invading army. I suppose the invading army bears no responsibility; only Lee?

In no way was there a betrayal of the "country". The country as we now know it is what replaced the pre-war USA. Lee's country was Virginia. If Lee had been a traitor, then Davis certainly was, and yet (despite holding him illegally for years) the feds were never able to find a single charge to prosecute Davis (or anyone) with.

Would you (and this is a serious if hypothetical question, really, Desert) support Canada conquering the US in order to put a stop to abortions? And regardless of your answer, would you say that in the post-war now-part-of-Canada US, anybody who wanted to put up a statue memorializing either a great leader of the defense of the US or a memorial to those who died in her defense, is by definition supporting baby-murder, or at least baby-murderers?
Xan, Ok, I have pondered some, but am only going to try to answer the second part of your post, the hypothetical. I think it's a really well-posed hypothetical question that does relate pretty well to this topic. I'll have to come back to the first part, after I've studied more regarding the initiation of the Civil War.

Ok, Canada (in this hypothetical situation, having found a moral imperative to cease abortion in North America), decides to attach the United States in an effort to stop abortion in our country. Would I support Canada in such an effort? I think I have to say "yes," but only if I think they have some chance of prevailing. Obviously the Canada that exists today wouldn't have any chance, so I'll postulate a Canada of somewhat superior military capability, similar to the North vs. the South in the Civil War. So yes, I would be forced to support Canada in that invasion. And I would expect you and Mountaineer to join me.

And of course I would not be in favor of putting monuments of, say, general Schwarzkopf (may God rest his soul), up in town squares if he were leading the opposition. (I couldn't think of a more engaging general at the moment).
Very interesting thought experiment, Xan. I discussed this with my wife. We both came to the same conclusion - Canada invading the US with military force to stop abortion would be one more example of sinful humans trying to play God in an attempt to create heaven on earth. The operative phrase that comes to mind is, "It is finished" and all the ramifications of what that really means. Failing to rightly divide law and gospel combined with perhaps a misunderstanding of the purpose of the civil kingdom vs. the spiritual kingdom can lead to many unintended consequences, regardless of the purity of the intent to stop immoral acts. For what it's worth, I likely would have had a far different response 10 years ago. The Canada/US scenario and question is very insightful and intriguing - as for the statues, it does not make much difference to me; I'd go with whatever the lawful authorities decided to do and ignore those I did not personally like. If the lawful authorities decided to erect them, so be it. If the lawful authorities decided to take them down, so be it. If a mob that is not lawful did something to deface public or private property, I would hope the authorities would act according with the full force of the law. Statue control is not one of my vocations ;) .

EDIT: It is probably obvious, but I think any real and lasting change on what it means to truly love our neighbor as ourself has to come from within, a change of heart and mind. Imposing the will of another (individual or nation) does not usually have lasting success; this is in the context of invasions, statues, and our US Civil War. For example, I doubt that Sherman's march to the sea did much to solve the real problem, it just drove the overt feelings underground - otherwise we would not still be fighting the Civil War via statues and flags over 150 years after the fact. As a side note, my wife and I visited Charleston, SC about 15 years ago. We both came away with a strong sense that the resentment of the North was still alive and well. I have never been to a location where the loyalty to the Southern cause was so overtly present - it hung in the air thickly.

Our Pastor preached on this topic of what divides us and the only real solution this past Sunday - A Zeal for All People. I hope you can spare a few minutes to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6K3DoO ... ploademail
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Desert » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:12 pm

Nice post, Mountaineer.

On a similar note, do you think it was sinful to invade Iraq?
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