Figuring Out Religion

[MachineGhost]

You're far from alone, but it's unusual to find someone willing to admit it. And I'm not saying this makes you a "bad person" or anything; it's just that we have different religions. Different unprovable base assumptions about life, the universe, and everything. But you can't say that you have NO religion or that you have NO unprovable base assumptions.

Fair enough. You seem to have a different attitude about this than Mountaineer does. He's more of a Scripture fundamentalist it seems.

[Xan]

I am having a hard time following these mutual accusations between you and MG about who is open or closed minded.

I believe MG has probably looked at the claims of Christianity and rejected them, just as I do (as an ex-Christian).

So what is it that you want him to open his mind to? Is he supposed to read every book written by William Lane Craig and other Christian apologists and /or get a PHD in theology before he is allowed to reject Christianity and not be accused of being closed-minded? Or is it that he is always going to be considered close-minded by you until he becomes a believer (frankly, I suspect that is the case).

I've never claimed to be open-minded. I think open-mindedness is overrated. At best, an open mind is a means to an end. For MG, open-mindedness is the ultimate goal, which I believe to be a wrong and self-contradictory position.

And I'm not "accusing" him of closed-minded because he's rejected Christianity. I'm saying that is an example of him being not as open-minded as he claims to be.

[Xan]

You're far from alone, but it's unusual to find someone willing to admit it. And I'm not saying this makes you a "bad person" or anything; it's just that we have different religions. Different unprovable base assumptions about life, the universe, and everything. But you can't say that you have NO religion or that you have NO unprovable base assumptions.

Fair enough. You seem to have a different attitude about this than Mountaineer does. He's more of a Scripture fundamentalist it seems.

Oh... I didn't think I did disagree with Mountaineer. I'm saying that two people can have different base assumptions and that pretty much means that they have different religions. Doesn't mean that one of them isn't right.

[MachineGhost]

I am having a hard time following these mutual accusations between you and MG about who is open or closed minded.

I believe MG has probably looked at the claims of Christianity and rejected them, just as I do (as an ex-Christian).

We should be careful to describe what exactly it is that is being rejected. I reject Christianity as a valid Operating System, the depressing premise that man is born a sinner and must perpetually repent to curry favor from his "God", the Holy Trinity/Triune, the Resurrection, anthropomorphism Scripture as the "Word of God", that "Jesus" was one person, etc. all of the irrational religious mysticism that is the usual standard hook and line shtick to get people to devote themselves to a Goebbels' Big Lie. But it would be absolutely silly to reject the tangible impact "Jesus" principles had on the development and enlightenment of of the West. Ideals do not have to be literally objective to literally change the world. You can be emphathetic to the "Jesus" concept without being a Christian.

Can't say much has happened re: the Torah (Old Testament) though. There's only a relatively few Jews and their "God" is a sadistic, bullying, uncaring prick of an asshole. That's why their religion didn't sweep the world -- it was just more of the same ol' bullshit but newly wrapped up in monotheism. Don't get me started on Islam and Khan Mohammed!

Ultimately, I reject every established religion because there's always at least one bizarre thing that doesn't pass the common sense smell test, though the Eastern religions are definitely more in line with universal truths (not Hinduism). It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. Humans are just naked apes after all -- don't let your human arrogance convince you that we're all supposed to act and think uber intelligent (guilty as charged!).

[MachineGhost]

I've never claimed to be open-minded. I think open-mindedness is overrated. At best, an open mind is a means to an end. For MG, open-mindedness is the ultimate goal, which I believe to be a wrong and self-contradictory position.

That's not the ultimate goal. Being actively open minded (as distinct from merely being open minded which is easy to say but not walk the talk) is an ongoing active process based on the scientific method as a means to an end for determining the functional objective truth about the nature of reality, life and the universe. Established religion can be sort of useful for the juvenile stage, but they critically lack the fine level details about the who, what, when, where and whys since they're more focused on worship and controlling human behavior than explaination.

So I perceive the difference between myself and an established religious believer is that they have shut down all avenues of inquiry outside of their own dogma because a religion is not open minded by inherent nature. In other words, they suffer from an extreme case of tunnel vision. I personally believe that to be a wrong and an affront to reason which is our single virture apart from all the other animals. As you say, we have completely different base assumptions.

[curlew]

Blessings upon you curlew; my prayer for you is that you return from the dark side and become a joyful person once more (assuming you once were). For the sake of yourself and those around you, enjoy the life and gifts God has given you.

... Mountaineer

Blessings to you too Mountaineer.

I don't pray but my hope for you is that someday you will abandon your religion and quit being the arrogant, condescending asshole that you are (assuming you weren't that way before).

[Mountaineer]

.

Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. Maya Angelou

Bitterness and resentment only hurt one person, and it's not the person we're resenting - it's us. Alana Stewart

We were poor, my mother and I, living in a world of doom and gloom, pessimism and bitterness, where storms raged and wolves scratched at the door. Said Sayrafiezadeh

Bitterness imprisons life; love releases it. Harry Emerson Fosdick

I feel like unforgiveness, bitterness and resentment, it blocks the flows of God's blessings in life. Ja Rule

I realize that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell

Hurt leads to bitterness, bitterness to anger, travel too far that road and the way is lost. Terry Brooks

It is only hope which is real, and reality is a bitterness and a deceit. William Makepeace Thackeray

There's nothing more painful than something that's superficially upbeat but you can kind of tell behind it that there's a cynicism, or even a bitterness. Grant-Lee Phillips

I had the honor to meet Nelson Mandela, and I heard him explain his forgiveness of his captors of 27 years by saying hatred and bitterness is destructive - the power is in love and forgiveness. Dick Gephardt

I've yet to meet a bitter teenager. Bitterness, jealousy and jadedness, I think, are the most unattractive qualities in a person, and unfortunately they do seem to come with age. Jane Goldman


... Mountaineer

[curlew]

.

Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. Maya Angelou

Bitterness and resentment only hurt one person, and it's not the person we're resenting - it's us. Alana Stewart

We were poor, my mother and I, living in a world of doom and gloom, pessimism and bitterness, where storms raged and wolves scratched at the door. Said Sayrafiezadeh

Bitterness imprisons life; love releases it. Harry Emerson Fosdick

I feel like unforgiveness, bitterness and resentment, it blocks the flows of God's blessings in life. Ja Rule

I realize that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell

Hurt leads to bitterness, bitterness to anger, travel too far that road and the way is lost. Terry Brooks

It is only hope which is real, and reality is a bitterness and a deceit. William Makepeace Thackeray

There's nothing more painful than something that's superficially upbeat but you can kind of tell behind it that there's a cynicism, or even a bitterness. Grant-Lee Phillips

I had the honor to meet Nelson Mandela, and I heard him explain his forgiveness of his captors of 27 years by saying hatred and bitterness is destructive - the power is in love and forgiveness. Dick Gephardt

I've yet to meet a bitter teenager. Bitterness, jealousy and jadedness, I think, are the most unattractive qualities in a person, and unfortunately they do seem to come with age. Jane Goldman


... Mountaineer

Being an arrogant, condescending, judgmental, religious asshole is just really annoying. Curlew.

[MachineGhost]

Mountainer and Xan are racists!!! j/k

[Mountaineer]

“A man can no more diminish God’s glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word ‘darkness’ on the walls of his cell.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

“To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you.”
― C.S. Lewis

“If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin, and in the end, despair.”
― C.S. Lewis

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ”
― C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce

Similar to the last C.S. Lewis quote above, my Pastor said yesterday in his Sermon titled Team God, you are either on Team God/Team Jesus (believers in the promises) or on Team Satan (everyone else). He preached a great sermon on how our current culture tries to say everyone is OK, we are all the same, it's all good, we all believe in the same God, and it is ....... W R O N G ! Today's Lectionary readings were from Jer 23:16-29 (false prophets), Heb 11:17-12:3 (faith) and Luke 12:49-53 (Jesus came to divide).

Thanks be to a gracious God, those who have faith in Jesus are forgiven, are generally kind and considerate to their neighbors as an expression of thanks for their wonderful undeserved gifts, and rarely are a toxic belligerent Scrooge. WooooHooooo!

... Mountaineer

[Cortopassi]

The back and forth here esp. between Curlew and Mountaineer is why I generally stay out of religious discussions!

[Mountaineer]

The back and forth here esp. between Curlew and Mountaineer is why I generally stay out of religious discussions!

FWIW, I have stopped my back and forth with curlew, at least for now. curlew is making his own choices. My recent posts have been for all to enjoy or trash or not read as they wish.

Again, FWIW, I used to believe one should avoid discussing religion and politics as those topics can become quite heated when conversing with irrational or toxic people. But, I've come to appreciate that (in Lutheran terminology previously discussed) religion is a Kingdom of the Right topic and politics is a Kingdom of the Left topic. What else is there of real value to discuss? Think of it as a cross with the vertical bar pointing upward toward God and downward toward Satan, the horizontal bar pointing outward to our fellow man. Guess who is in the center, in control of all?

... Mountaineer

[curlew]

The back and forth here esp. between Curlew and Mountaineer is why I generally stay out of religious discussions!

I think this thread stopped being about religious discussion a long time ago. Seems to me it is mostly a thread for one member to proclaim his religious dogma to the rest of us and he doesn't like it very much if you challenge what he believes.

[Xan]

You can make the claim that Mountaineer has dominated the conversation, and I wouldn't argue with you too much. And you can say that he proclaims his religious dogma, which he does frequently, and that's again true. But I don't think that you can say he doesn't like it when you disagree with him. He's sowing the seeds and the rest is up to God. He'll point out where he thinks you're wrong, but I've never seen him once react negatively to being challenged (or even sometimes far beyond being challenged).

By contrast, lately some atheists have been relentlessly proclaiming THEIR religious dogma, and when you disagree with THAT, then you see a demonstration of "not liking it very much if you challenge what he believes".

[iwealth]

Similar to the last C.S. Lewis quote above, my Pastor said yesterday in his Sermon titled Team God, you are either on Team God/Team Jesus (believers in the promises) or on Team Satan (everyone else). He preached a great sermon on how our current culture tries to say everyone is OK, we are all the same, it's all good, we all believe in the same God, and it is ....... W R O N G ! Today's Lectionary readings were from Jer 23:16-29 (false prophets), Heb 11:17-12:3 (faith) and Luke 12:49-53 (Jesus came to divide).

Thanks be to a gracious God, those who have faith in Jesus are forgiven, are generally kind and considerate to their neighbors as an expression of thanks for their wonderful undeserved gifts, and rarely are a toxic belligerent Scrooge. WooooHooooo!

Mountaineer, it sounds like this sermon really struck a chord with you. And since you stated your post wasn't about Curlew, I assume it intended for all of us to ponder. From the perspective of an outsider, it sounds like an extremely divisive sermon. Very centered around who is right, who is "W R O N G!"...who is good, who is bad, etc. Not just divisive but also maybe a bit self-aggrandizing?

As it relates to the existence of God and what it requires to be "saved", many of your posts in this thread explicitly state you are right and the non-religious and/or the followers of any other religion are wrong. I take no issue with that, it's your faith and it's what your church teaches.

Imagine that overnight, everyone was suddenly on the same page and we lived in a world with 6-7 billion LCMS members. Do you think no longer being so much more right relative to the average member of society would detract from your zeal and passion?

[Cortopassi]

many of your posts in this thread explicitly state you are right and the non-religious and/or the followers of any other religion are wrong.

A couple years ago I was at a party with an evangelical friend. And we started talking religion. As I assume all evangelicals believe (??) if you haven't taken Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you aren't getting into heaven. Which started a little argument along the lines of -- so your Jewish friend, who's a great person but doesn't believe in Jesus as his savior... the response from her was immediate and unequivocal -- that person will not be going to heaven.

Just another data point for me that all the differing religions of the world think they are right, and generally everyone else is wrong. Which leads me to believe they are likely all wrong and we simply just die.

Or maybe all the people in that one single "right" religion will be up there thumbing their noses at everyone else...

[MachineGhost]

I would disagree with that assessment. While I respect Mountaineer and enjoy his posts in other threads, there is rarely a 'discussion' in this one. He proselytizes relentlessly by simply posting bible passages or copy & pastes from other religious sites he frequents. That is not discourse. If you want to "figure out religion" via an intelligent debate [which I think has been exhausted after 3700 posts], fine. But there is no need to turn the thread into the LCMS blog.

+1. Mountaineer and Xan never respond to all of my pointed questions, so they're not really interested in "figuring out religion" but just correcting misperceptions we may have about each other. That's fine as far as that goes as I enjoy learning as much as anyone else, but that's not really an intelligent debate about religion. I don't know what more needs to be said anyway... anyone that is actively open minded can easily figure out what the religion shtick is all about.

[MachineGhost]

Just another data point for me that all the differing religions of the world think they are right, and generally everyone else is wrong. Which leads me to believe they are likely all wrong and we simply just die.

Or maybe all the people in that one single "right" religion will be up there thumbing their noses at everyone else...

They're all wrong and right in their own way via circular, self-reinforcing logic. Ultimately, it doesn't matter in the end so far as it doesn't influence them to be coercive and violent while alive. Most non-religious consider proselythizing to be borderline coercive, but I've never viewed Moutaineer's posts as that as curlew seems to do. He's just sharing his faith.

[Mountaineer]

Similar to the last C.S. Lewis quote above, my Pastor said yesterday in his Sermon titled Team God, you are either on Team God/Team Jesus (believers in the promises) or on Team Satan (everyone else). He preached a great sermon on how our current culture tries to say everyone is OK, we are all the same, it's all good, we all believe in the same God, and it is ....... W R O N G ! Today's Lectionary readings were from Jer 23:16-29 (false prophets), Heb 11:17-12:3 (faith) and Luke 12:49-53 (Jesus came to divide).

Thanks be to a gracious God, those who have faith in Jesus are forgiven, are generally kind and considerate to their neighbors as an expression of thanks for their wonderful undeserved gifts, and rarely are a toxic belligerent Scrooge. WooooHooooo!

Mountaineer, it sounds like this sermon really struck a chord with you. And since you stated your post wasn't about Curlew, I assume it intended for all of us to ponder. From the perspective of an outsider, it sounds like an extremely divisive sermon. Very centered around who is right, who is "W R O N G!"...who is good, who is bad, etc. Not just divisive but also maybe a bit self-aggrandizing?

As it relates to the existence of God and what it requires to be "saved", many of your posts in this thread explicitly state you are right and the non-religious and/or the followers of any other religion are wrong. I take no issue with that, it's your faith and it's what your church teaches.

Imagine that overnight, everyone was suddenly on the same page and we lived in a world with 6-7 billion LCMS members. Do you think no longer being so much more right relative to the average member of society would detract from your zeal and passion?

The sermon did strike a chord with me. Perhaps because I find it so refreshing to leave the political correctness at the door and speak only the pure, unadulterated truth. Or, perhaps God wanted me to hear what I heard on Sunday. Perhaps God decided those seeds needed a bit of nurturing in my head. I do think there is an ultimate truth, so given that, there is also an ultimate wrong. In other words, I'm not a relativist when it comes to my eternal future. I understand that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and even though I write on this forum that which is intended to share God's mercy, love, and justice, it can be interpreted as condescending, arrogant and mean spirited if one is not ready to hear. Not much I can do about how others perceives God's truth. Lastly, as long as I believe there is at least one more patch of fertile ground, I'll keep casting the seeds. I'm NOT content to say "Satan, you win those bodies and souls". It is not my job to sprout or nurture the seeds ... I'll leave that to the Big Guy! I ernestly do care about my internet friends on this forum, likely more than unbelievers can understand - that is why I keep repeating God's truth. I REALLY would like to see ALL of you after the Last Day. I'm sure there is room in the new creation for all the billions of us. In the interim, maybe my zeal and passion would become joyful if all were to join us Christians. Come to the party! There really is a right and wrong - just look around yourselves at the world - it is obvious. Christianity is divisive, read the section of Luke that I referred to.

... Mountaineer

[Cortopassi]

Or maybe all the people in that one single "right" religion will be up there thumbing their noses at everyone else...

south park.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbr8IA1R5DE

interactive processing, that was perfect!
--------------------------------------------
FYI, when I get email notifications of new posts, all come in like below, except for notifications when you post, which still come in with the IP address. I went back and checked, and it is only when responses come from you.

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You are receiving this notification because you are watching the topic
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that was caused by how i logged in, i had the during transfer interim address saved in my bookmarks (the one showing as an ip address) as well as the post transfer one, and have been randomly using both to log in... i have fixed it now so i select only the current one..

[Mountaineer]

that was caused by how i logged in, i had the during transfer interim address saved in my bookmarks (the one showing as an ip address) as well as the post transfer one, and have been randomly using both to log in... i have fixed it now so i select only the current one..

,

This has probably been said before, but do you realize how ironic (and self-contradictory) your signature is? At least to me.


... M

it has been said... and i have answered it several times..

I don't think you do recognize that bias. (Not trying to be snarky.) Your signature means that you are unable to consider that you might be wrong. "As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence." Since you believe that THAT is true, you're unable to consider that you might be wrong. By your own (via the sig) admission.

i didn't say i was certain about the statement in my Sig, only that i had internalized it, and BTW i love the twist in logic/paradox that being certain about that statement about certainty would cause

this https://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/v ... ng#p152621
and
you should read this post i made about the nature of functional objectivity.. https://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/v ... 29#p152633 i am open to the possibility that my sig may be wrong but "it seems to me, at this point in time, based on the potentially limited information, and the specific tools i have to view it with" that we are living in a universe where truth is subjective, and in order to be functionally objective it must acknowledge my both participation and limitations as an observer...

[Mountaineer]

l8,

This has probably been said before, but do you realize how ironic (and self-contradictory) your signature is? At least to me.

... M

it has been said... and i have answered it several times..

I don't think you do recognize that bias. (Not trying to be snarky.) Your signature means that you are unable to consider that you might be wrong. "As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence." Since you believe that THAT is true, you're unable to consider that you might be wrong. By your own (via the sig) admission.

i didn't say i was certain about the statement in my Sig, only that i had internalized it, and BTW i love the twist in logic/paradox that being certain about that statement about certainty would cause

you should read this post i made about the nature of functional objectivity.. http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/vi ... 48#p152634 i am open to the possibility that my sig may be wrong but "it seems to me, at this point in time, based on the potentially limited information, and the specific tools i have to view it with" that we are living in a universe where truth is subjective, and in order to be functionally objective it must acknowledge my both participation and limitations as an observer...

I had read your post before ... oh well, my memory is not perfect.

What do you think of this statement? Is it true?

Communication relies on there being an objective truth. When I say something, you hear it. We're in a shared world. What you hear isn't random, it has to do with what I said. It's not based on your whim or subjectivity. What you hear is a close approximation of what I actually said, because you seek the truth of what I said and it is there to be found. Communication is only possible when there is one single truth of what is being said for all the people communicating.

Or this statement? Is it true?

People deny there is an objective truth is because they are skeptical that we know the truth. I accept that we never know what the truth is for sure. We can be mistaken. But to be mistaken, there has to be an objective truth! The idea of a mistake is that there is a truth and we have it wrong. Denying there are true ideas also denies that there are false ideas and mistakes. As a consequence, it prevents us from finding and correcting our errors, because errors are deviations from the truth and they say there is no truth to deviate from. Because they prevent error correction, relativism and other denials of truth are irrational ways of thinking. Similarly, denying there is a truth involves denying we can make progress, because progress means getting closer to the truth and understanding more of the truth.

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

I had read your post before ... oh well, my memory is not perfect.

What do you think of this statement? Is it true?

Communication relies on there being an objective truth. When I say something, you hear it. We're in a shared world. What you hear isn't random, it has to do with what I said. It's not based on your whim or subjectivity. What you hear is a close approximation of what I actually said, because you seek the truth of what I said and it is there to be found. Communication is only possible when there is one single truth of what is being said for all the people communicating.

gibberish... mostly just a weak sauce attempt to mimic logic that fails badly... its so sloppy i don't even know where to begin... it makes an unsupported claim that communication demands there be an objective truth (it doesn't) then it confuses hearing sounds with the conveying of meaning and the conveying of meaning with there being an objective reality, non of which proves objective reality or disproves that we are (or could be) communicating in a shared subjective reality...

Or this statement? Is it true?

People deny there is an objective truth is because they are skeptical that we know the truth. I accept that we never know what the truth is for sure. We can be mistaken. But to be mistaken, there has to be an objective truth! The idea of a mistake is that there is a truth and we have it wrong. Denying there are true ideas also denies that there are false ideas and mistakes. As a consequence, it prevents us from finding and correcting our errors, because errors are deviations from the truth and they say there is no truth to deviate from. Because they prevent error correction, relativism and other denials of truth are irrational ways of thinking. Similarly, denying there is a truth involves denying we can make progress, because progress means getting closer to the truth and understanding more of the truth.

... Mountaineer

more of the same.. gibberish posing as logic... to many unsubstantiated absolutes, first it assumes there is an absolute truth and that people are skeptical that we can know it, then it uses the idea that being mistaken or not having the full truth implies that there is some full truth to be had... again none of this proves anything... the same type of statements could be made about a universe that has only functionally objective truth...

People deny there is an objective truth is because they are skeptical that we know the truth. I accept that we never know what the truth is for sure. We can be mistaken. But to be mistaken, there has to be a more functionally objective truth! The idea of a mistake is that there is a truth that works better and we have it wrong. Denying there are true ideas that work also denies that there are false ideas that don't and mistakes. As a consequence, it prevents us from finding and correcting our errors, because errors are deviations from the functional truth and they say there is no functional truth to deviate from. Because they prevent error correction, relativism and other denials of functional truth are irrational ways of thinking. Similarly, denying there is a functional truth involves denying we can make progress, because progress means getting closer to the functional truth and understanding more of the functional truth.

I may be way off base, but I am thinking you are trying to prove a negative by maintaining there is no objective truth without being able to prove there is not. But then, I am not a logic guru.

... M

[Mountaineer]

i am stating my uncertainty which includes uncertainty itself...

even in science we have discovered an "observer is a part of the experiment" nature to how things work... light is a wave or a particle depending on which experiment you use to discover lights nature, the cat is both alive and dead until the box is opened and the cat is observed (quantum superposition)...

interactive processing
You might enjoy this book if you have not already read:
Quantum Physics, Near Death Experiences, Eternal Consciousness, Religion, and the Human Soul by William Bray.

..... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

interactive processing,
You might enjoy this book if you have not already read:
Quantum Physics, Near Death Experiences, Eternal Consciousness, Religion, and the Human Soul by William Bray.

..... Mountaineer

looks interesting, have you read it?

i have added it to my amazon list

Yes, two and a half years ago. I thought it was one of the more interesting reads I had come across for a while. Different, and bizzare but thought provoking and entertaining. Just the title alone is out there; imagine trying to see the connections among the topics. On a little different but somewhat related topic, some of my Evangelical pursuasion friends thought the DaVinci Code by Dan Brown was not good because it portrayed a very unorthodox view of Christianity - I on the other hand just thought it was an entertaining novel; I have the Bible as my religious authority and recognize the other stuff for what it is. All my view of course!

... Mountaineer