Figuring Out Religion

[Pointedstick]

How about the correct religion being....  no religion at all? 

I'm surprised that an intelligent person, such as yourself, would not realize everyone has a religion.  Everyone has something/someone they trust and put their faith in, whether it is science, self, experts, logic, or Saint Mattress on Sunday morning.  Otherwise, you would not even know the world is a sphere (unless you have had the priviledge of space travel and could see for yourself).  There is an enormous amount of material, from 1st grade textbooks to TV documentaries, that I have no proof they are somewhat correct unless I have faith in something.  I do not think it is possible for a sane person to have no religion.  YMMV but I would be interested in your definition of "no religion".

... M

I think that you are inappropriately using the terms "faith" and "religion" interchangeably, but I do agree with you. Everyone has faith. But not all faith is religion.

[Mountaineer]

This is a really important point (religion, faith, whatever one wants to call it).  We do have to take much on faith in this world.  And faith does not mean belief in the absence of evidence.

Agree, obviously    I would also add another important point is "belief <--> practice" are two sides of the same coin and cannot be separated.  Said another way, what I believe in (trust, have faith in, my source of comfort) is ultimately my my god and thus my religion).  Examples:

* If I believe money beyond basic needs fulfillment, is extremely important to my "well being", I may have a job that pays a lot, even if it requires me to place family and my recreation time on the back burner. 

*If I believe in and/or have a very high regard for my own ability to do anything to which I set my mind, i.e. I'm the one in charge of my destiny, I may place "my happiness" as my prime goal in life (or as Mazlow might say my self-actualization is my highest need), even to the exclusion of placing my spouse or children on an equal plane with myself. 

*If I believe in the promises of Jesus, I will place my neighbor's needs on a plane with my own, I will love my wife even during very difficult times, and I will not let world events (i.e. craziness, sensationalism in the media, wars cold and otherwise) bother me all that much. 

*If I believe in the ability of science and logic to explain all that is, I will discount all that cannot be proven by direct observation by myself or testimony of scientific sources.  This one is ironic to me as it requires belief (faith) in things that cannot be proven as Desert said.

... M

[MachineGhost]

I'm surprised that an intelligent person, such as yourself, would not realize everyone has a religion.  Everyone has something/someone they trust and put their faith in, whether it is science, self, experts, logic, or Saint Mattress on Sunday morning.  Otherwise, you would not even know the world is a sphere (unless you have had the priviledge of space travel and could see for yourself).  There is an enormous amount of material, from 1st grade textbooks to TV documentaries, that I have no proof they are somewhat correct unless I have faith in something.  I do not think it is possible for a sane person to have no religion.  YMMV but I would be interested in your definition of "no religion".

Faith is the absence of any factual, objective evidence for an emotional belief or meme.  Religion certainly qualifies as a faith.  Is it faith to learn about physics and then assume an object in motion tends to stay in motion?  I view that as logical inference, not faith.  Our everyday reality relies on repeatedly performing non-faith behaviors, except for politics.

And yes, eyewitness testimony is faith.  Especially when it is written down hundreds of years after the fact by parties other than the alleged eyewitnesses.  It might as well be literary fiction for all you know.  You have no way of ever proving it was not fiction.  Since your religious belief depends on this Swiss Cheese foundation, you will valiantly defend it to the death.  That's faith.

Tell you what.  I have the utmost faith that the fairy tales written in the New Testament are not literally true and did not happen as alleged, or even at all.  How's that?

[MachineGhost]

I think that you are inappropriately using the terms "faith" and "religion" interchangeably, but I do agree with you. Everyone has faith. But not all faith is religion.

I was going to say that at first, but faith cannot be redefined as anything but the absence of facts.  You may "take a leap of faith" based on previous logic, but that's not quite the same thing as conflating faith and religion.  Religion is a ritualistic set of behaviors and beliefs; faith is the prerequisite to believe that insanity has any relevance to what is bombastically claimed.  It's like The Church of Satan performing silly rituals even though they are completely athiest.

Anyway, once (IF!) you get out from under the shackles of quaint, anthropomorphist, religious mysticism, you will start perceiving that faith actually means belief and belief is what creates reality.  That may be the ultimate form of faith since I don't think we have any objective evidence of it except at the quantum mechanical level, i.e. energy vibrations from superstrings create all matter.

[Jack Jones]

Also I really wish we had a Muslim, a buddhist, and a Hindu on this thread. Can the moderators find people like this and make them join in the fun?

I wouldn't call myself a buddhist, but it's the "religion" that I most closely identify with. Unfortunately, catching up on a 200+ page thread is against my beliefs, but I'll start paying attention to this thread from now on.

[Mountaineer]

Also I really wish we had a Muslim, a buddhist, and a Hindu on this thread. Can the moderators find people like this and make them join in the fun?

I wouldn't call myself a buddhist, but it's the "religion" that I most closely identify with. Unfortunately, catching up on a 200+ page thread is against my beliefs, but I'll start paying attention to this thread from now on.

Welcome!  It will be interesting to read your perspectives on the various topics.  This thread has gone on much longer than most .... there must be superstrings or some as yet unknown something at the quantum level involved.  To the best of my knowledge, there is only one thing that exists outside of space and time. 

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

I think that you are inappropriately using the terms "faith" and "religion" interchangeably, but I do agree with you. Everyone has faith. But not all faith is religion.

I was going to say that at first, but faith cannot be redefined as anything but the absence of facts.  You may "take a leap of faith" based on previous logic, but that's not quite the same thing as conflating faith and religion.  Religion is a ritualistic set of behaviors and beliefs; faith is the prerequisite to believe that insanity has any relevance to what is bombastically claimed.  It's like The Church of Satan performing silly rituals even though they are completely athiest.

Anyway, once (IF!) you get out from under the shackles of quaint, anthropomorphist, religious mysticism, you will start perceiving that faith actually means belief and belief is what creates reality.  That may be the ultimate form of faith since I don't think we have any objective evidence of it except at the quantum mechanical level, i.e. energy vibrations from superstrings create all matter.

LOL!  Your comment reminds me of a discussion I had a couple of days ago when I said that E=Mc^2 reminded me of God creating something from nothing and having faith in something that cannot be proven.  Energy cannot be perceived on its own - we only know energy because of the effect it has when interacting with matter (warming, moving, light generation, blowing something up, etc.), yet we know it exists.  We know God exists due to his interaction with humans (creating right behavior, the fact of pondering if there is a God regardless of the outcome of that pondering, the gift of everything that exists, the ability to love, etc.).  Is that faith, or what?  LOL!

... Mountaineer

[Greg]

Also I really wish we had a Muslim, a buddhist, and a Hindu on this thread. Can the moderators find people like this and make them join in the fun?

I wouldn't call myself a buddhist, but it's the "religion" that I most closely identify with. Unfortunately, catching up on a 200+ page thread is against my beliefs, but I'll start paying attention to this thread from now on.

Welcome Jack Jones. I was feeling it was getting very one-dimensional in terms of Christianity versus Agnosticism/Atheism.

[MachineGhost]

To the best of my knowledge, there is only one thing that exists outside of space and time. 

To the best of my knowledge and experience, I vehemently disagree with you.  Your fairy tale doesn't exist as you imagine.

[MachineGhost]

We know God exists due to his interaction with humans (creating right behavior, the fact of pondering if there is a God regardless of the outcome of that pondering, the gift of everything that exists, the ability to love, etc.).  Is that faith, or what?  LOL!

Very much so.  I've never seen or heard of any verifiable human interaction from any alleged "God", certainly not the one you imagine exists.  Do you concede that any "God" is completely unknownable while being a hypocrite for your fetish for religious mythology?

[Jack Jones]

Very much so.  I've never seen or heard of any verifiable human interaction from any alleged "God", certainly not the one you imagine exists.  Do you concede that any "God" is completely unknownable while being a hypocrite for your fetish for religious mythology?

If you personally experienced God, in some (unverifiable) way, would that change any thing for you?

[Jack Jones]

To the best of my knowledge, there is only one thing that exists outside of space and time. 

To the best of my knowledge and experience, I vehemently disagree with you.  Your fairy tale doesn't exist as you imagine.

And you suppose your fairy tales are better than his?

[MachineGhost]

If you personally experienced God, in some (unverifiable) way, would that change any thing for you?

I wouldn't experience it through the lens of religious mysticism, so no.

[Jack Jones]

If you personally experienced God, in some (unverifiable) way, would that change any thing for you?

I wouldn't experience it through the lens of religious mysticism, so no.

But you do believe that some people have experiences like that?

[MachineGhost]

And you suppose your fairy tales are better than his?

They do a better job at explaining the nature of the universe and physical reality, so I say yes.  I guess it depends on what you ultimately want... a moral code or an explanation.  Religion is not the latter.

[MachineGhost]

But you do believe that some people have experiences like that?

Of course.  Someone even posted about a schizophrenic friend that was literally hearing and talking to "God" in his head.  But such experiences are subjective, always perceived through a belief or meme filter.  I prefer to get at the ultimate truth, not what would merely appear in front of me or talk in my head.  As anyone reading my posts know, I don't accept things at face value.  And actually, my revelation of religion being a primitive fairy tale by humans is a large part of my drive to pull back the curtain on everything else.  Call me cynical.

Why are demonic possessions overwhelmingly striking only Catholics and Christians?  Because they believe in religious mythology that incorporates such concepts and that belief is the opening needed.  Caveat emptor.

[Xan]

But such experiences are subjective, always perceived through a belief or meme filter.  I prefer to get at the ultimate truth, not what would merely appear in front of me or talk in my head.

You realize that's quite impossible, right?  Do you really believe you have no belief or meme filter?  And you expect to find truth some other way than it appearing in front of you or being in your head...  Exactly how would that come about?  You seem to be suggesting that truth can be discovered scientifically, but that's very much in the "appearing in front of you" camp, isn't it?

[Jack Jones]

But you do believe that some people have experiences like that?

Of course. Someone even posted about a schizophrenic friend that was literally hearing and talking to "God" in his head.  But such experiences are subjective, always perceived through a belief or meme filter.

Aren't all experiences subjective and perceived through a belief or meme filter? I wonder how your lens might change after having had a mystical experience.

I prefer to get at the ultimate truth, not what would merely appear in front of me or talk in my head.

Perhaps there is no ultimate truth. What else do we have to go on besides what appears in front of us, or what is going on in our heads?

As anyone reading my posts know, I don't accept things at face value.  And actually, my revelation of religion being a primitive fairy tale by humans is a large part of my drive to pull back the curtain on everything else.  Call me cynical.

You're being a bit cynical. Perhaps there is value in these fairy tales despite their apparent falsehood. Newton's laws have proven quite useful even though they're not always right.

[MachineGhost]

You realize that's quite impossible, right?  Do you really believe you have no belief or meme filter?  And you expect to find truth some other way than it appearing in front of you or being in your head...  Exactly how would that come about?  You seem to be suggesting that truth can be discovered scientifically, but that's very much in the "appearing in front of you" camp, isn't it?

If we're talking about metaphysical experiences, then I don't believe you can ever have it be physically objective "in front of you" unless you've unlocked the mystery of exactly how to form matter from your thoughts.  That's unlikely to be happening anytime soon.   But I do think you can conduct metaphysical experiments in a scientific manner; that's currently ongoing.  Science is a process about discovery and verification, not an ideological religion.  So long as you follow the process you will keep your bias, beliefs and memes out of the evidence as much as possible and take the results as it comes, both good and bad.  This makes religious believers very uncomfortable because they do not want to face up to the evidence having zilch to do with their religious mythology.  In other words, they don't want their faith-based, belief support system to crash and burn.

[MachineGhost]

Aren't all experiences subjective and perceived through a belief or meme filter? I wonder how your lens might change after having had a mystical experience.

I would get more obsessed than I am now, that's for sure!  But the cat is out of the bag, as they say, for it being based on religious mythology.  Just like gold was once money, there is no going back.

Perhaps there is no ultimate truth. What else do we have to go on besides what appears in front of us, or what is going on in our heads?

That's the ultimate truth right there.  We're alive.  We think.  I'm much more interested in the logistics and mechanics behind all that, not just accepting it.

You're being a bit cynical. Perhaps there is value in these fairy tales despite their apparent falsehood. Newton's laws have proven quite useful even though they're not always right.

I never said there wasn't any value in them.  I really like the UFO's in the Holy Bible and the Vimanas.  But value is subjective and everyone sees things differently for what is of value.  But, adopting them wholesale as the Be All, End All faith-based belief system is an entirely different matter.  That is like wiping Windows for another OS...

[Greg]

I found this to be a very good reasoning for the faith of Christianity. It starts out not by referencing any holy books (which could be considered as circular logic), but with the three main questions of:

1.) Why is God hidden?
2.) Why is man in misery?
3.) How can man know God?

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/ ... html#fnr_1

[Xan]

Science is a process about discovery and verification, not an ideological religion.  So long as you follow the process you will keep your bias, beliefs and memes out of the evidence as much as possible and take the results as it comes, both good and bad.

Science is a philosophy which can be either subscribed to or not.  It can produce useful results.  It can even produce truths, within its own limits and if (huge IF) its assumptions are true.

For example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6de ... s_theorems
Take something as simple as the natural numbers.  Godel proved that there will always be truths that are unprovable.  Since something as simple as natural numbers can never be consistent or complete, then all of logic, reason, and science is on shifting sand.  It can be useful, certainly, but as far as a gateway to Truth?  Not really, no.

[Jack Jones]

Aren't all experiences subjective and perceived through a belief or meme filter? I wonder how your lens might change after having had a mystical experience.

I would get more obsessed than I am now, that's for sure!  But the cat is out of the bag, as they say, for it being based on religious mythology.  Just like gold was once money, there is no going back.

I believe you can have mystical experience divorced from religious mythology.

Perhaps there is no ultimate truth. What else do we have to go on besides what appears in front of us, or what is going on in our heads?

That's the ultimate truth right there.  We're alive.  We think.  I'm much more interested in the logistics and mechanics behind all that, not just accepting it.

That's the spirit! I think I just witnessed some cynicism leave your body. Regarding an interest in the logistics and mechanics of human experience...I'm reminded of something I read where such navel-gazing was likened to staring at the tracks during a train ride. Sure they're interesting in that you wouldn't get anywhere without them, but stare too long and you'll miss what's passing by out your window.

[MachineGhost]

1.) Why is God hidden?
2.) Why is man in misery?
3.) How can man know God?

Reminds me trying to prove a negative.  Faith is a bottomless pit of the most arcane, obscure B.S. (just look at what comes out of gold bugs pieholes).  Whatever you decide is true, is thus.

[MachineGhost]

That's the spirit! I think I just witnessed some cynicism leave your body. Regarding an interest in the logistics and mechanics of human experience...I'm reminded of something I read where such navel-gazing was likened to staring at the tracks during a train ride. Sure they're interesting in that you wouldn't get anywhere without them, but stare too long and you'll miss what's passing by out your window.

Hedonism is overrated.