Figuring Out Religion

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Pointedstick » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:34 pm

Xan wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:You'r right about the potential consequences of nihilism. But that doesn't say anything about Christianity. Christianity doesn't become correct simply because ditching it without replacing it with anything else leads to nihilism. There are hundreds of other religious and philosophical traditions in the world to examine.
That's true, but your argument (in this case) was to look askance at Christianity and say "why would you want to believe in THAT".  I was just holding up a bit of a mirror.  (And I hope it didn't sound like a personal attack!)
Oh don't worry, I didn't take it that way. But it's still my question. I absolutely agree with your proposition that it's sort of silly to imagine anyone evaluating nihilism and saying, "yeah, that sounds pretty good!", but I feel the same way about Christianity. I still don't feel like I really understand what people see in it--especially the very rigid fundamentalist version (because there are many versions) that most often comes up here, which to me seems cruel and judgmental and contradictory and manipulative. Obviously there is something I'm missing, because there are 2 billion Christians on this earth, and I want to understand what they see in it that I don't.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Fred » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:14 pm

Desert wrote: Mountaineer needs no defense from me, but he's gonna get it anyway.  What you refer to as a "faction" and "extreme pyschopathology" is actually orthodox, historic Christianity.  I'm not a member of the LCMS, but I agree with nearly all of their positions that I'm aware of, and Mountaineer's statements on this forum seem very consistent with LCMS doctrine. 

In addition, Mountaineer is one of the happier, more joyful people I have become acquainted with.  I'm afraid he already has the real peace of mind you want him to have, and without the hassle and expense of a psychotherapist.
How can Mountaineer be so hopeful and joyful when he knows so many people around him, the vast majority probably. according to the beliefs he expresses, are destined for eternal suffering in hell? My suggestion that he needs a psychotherapist was sort of a tongue cheek way of giving him a taste of his own medicine in what I perceive as a very condescending, "I'm Okay/You're not okay" attitude that I see in so many of his posts. But now that I think of it, being joyful in what he believes might very well exhibit some form of sociopathic detachment from the rest of the human race.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:31 pm

Fred wrote:
Desert wrote: Mountaineer needs no defense from me, but he's gonna get it anyway.  What you refer to as a "faction" and "extreme pyschopathology" is actually orthodox, historic Christianity.  I'm not a member of the LCMS, but I agree with nearly all of their positions that I'm aware of, and Mountaineer's statements on this forum seem very consistent with LCMS doctrine. 

In addition, Mountaineer is one of the happier, more joyful people I have become acquainted with.  I'm afraid he already has the real peace of mind you want him to have, and without the hassle and expense of a psychotherapist.
How can Mountaineer be so hopeful and joyful when he knows so many people around him, the vast majority probably. according to the beliefs he expresses, are destined for eternal suffering in hell? My suggestion that he needs a psychotherapist was sort of a tongue cheek way of giving him a taste of his own medicine in what I perceive as a very condescending, "I'm Okay/You're not okay" attitude that I see in so many of his posts. But now that I think of it, being joyful in what he believes might very well exhibit some form of sociopathic detachment from the rest of the human race.
Fred, did you know the opposite of love is not hate?  It is apathy.  I'm not quite there with you though, there is always hope because Christ atoned for your sins too, and even the sins of ISIS folks who behead Christians.  I really feel for you man.  You seem to be in such a dark place and so desparately wanting others to join you in your misery.  Blessings Dude!  Have a joyful day.  Cheer up.  This is the day the Lord has made.  Rejoice!  Tomorrow is a brand new day, remember your baptism, spread some cheer to your friends and neighbors, ask how you can help them meet their needs.  Focus outward and not inward at the sorrowful thoughts you may be feeling.  :)

... M
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:27 pm

MediumTex wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: 1. I do not believe I said that.  I believe I said that Jesus came to forgive all sin from all time for believers.  If you choose to focus on the past instead of the future, so be it.
So are you saying that God's thuggin' days are NOT behind him?  My comment was that Mountaineer says God's thuggin' days are behind him.

Do you believe that God needs to be forgiven of anything?  The reason I ask is that much of what God did to people in the OT are things that we say humans today need Jesus to deliver them from--i.e., the need for vengeance, uncontrolled anger, random violence, hurting those we love, raping people, killing people, etc.
2. I do not know from God's perspective, I am not God.  From a sinful human's perspective, both sound pretty bad if I were on the receiving end.  Thanks be to God that He is a God of mercy for those He has chosen, the believers, according to His Word - the promises of Jesus.
Do you think that Job would agree with the statement above?  When I read Job, it's almost like God is trying to say that his wrath isn't reserved just for the bad people--if you catch him on the right day he might be kicking almost anyone's ass, including people he's supposed to "love" like David.  He was even cruel to his own son by letting him suffer on the cross beyond the point that even Jesus thought they had agreed to ("...why have you forsaken me?").
My comment.  From my perspective, your questions and comments strongly indicate "you want to be God".  Maybe said another way, you are unwilling for whatever reason to let go and let God be in charge.  I know it will likely sound hollow to you, but I sincerely hope God chooses to open your ears to hear His Word.  You seem like a really nice guy with so much to offer.  I don't know what happened in your life to make you so in tune to only see the God of wrath and so out of tune to seeing the God of mercy.  Whatever it was/is, I really hope you get some peace.
I don't know what you mean when you say you believe that I want to be God.  I have so much respect for people whose beliefs I don't share, I think that I would be a terrible God.  The very first time that I needed to kill all of the non-believers, I'm pretty sure that I would just walk off the job. 

I rarely get to have these conversations with people, mostly because I am too considerate of others' beliefs and I don't like abstractions like religion undermining real relationships.  I only got this conversation about religion going because I believe that I have enough good will with you guys to engage in this discussion honestly without anyone's feelings getting too hurt.
MT,

I am never sure why you use Hebrew Scripture to justify or prove things.  Just because the Jewish people had laws of such and such does not mean that it translates into the New Testament ethos.  What you read or hear in St. Paul about marriage or purity or homosexuality Romans 1, has to do with the issue that St. Paul's life was changed when he was met by the Lord Jesus.  God's law became more severe as the severity of Christ's death put an end to that legal severity.  St. Paul's Judaism or heritage was secondary to the love and forgiveness he found in Jesus.  Christian leaders should convey this difference and contrast.  But in today's liberal churches anything goes in terms of what is brought out to be taught especially in the way the Hebrew Scriptures become a standard rather than as something that has become obsolete and will soon disappear (see Hebrews 8, esp. verse 13 and 2 Corinthians 3).

On the topic of wanting to be God - my perspective on that is man, most men actually, have a preference for their own reason and knowledge and experience to rule their lives; if they can't understand something, it is wrong, or at least very suspect.  Those men are very suspect of God's revealed Word since they think it can not be proven.  I'd even go so far to say that Shakespeare, Homer, Julius Caesar, Charles Darwin, or even my great grandfather cannot be proven - I have not personally met any of them and have no means of doing so.  Why should I believe the words of someone else that all that exists that I have not personally observed is true?  In the matter of the Holy Trinity, I believe it because it is true.  Many or most would disagree with me, even probably many of the 25% of the world's population that professes to be Christian.

Just something to think about when the wrath of God in the First Testament starts bothering you.

... M
Last edited by Mountaineer on Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Fred » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:46 pm

Mountaineer wrote: I really feel for you man.  You seem to be in such a dark place and so desparately wanting others to join you in your misery.  Blessings Dude!  Have a joyful day.  Cheer up.  This is the day the Lord has made.  Rejoice!  Tomorrow is a brand new day, remember your baptism, spread some cheer to your friends and neighbors, ask how you can help them meet their needs.  Focus outward and not inward at the sorrowful thoughts you may be feeling.  :)
Another great example of your sickening condescension Mountaineer.

You are right. Everybody else is wrong. But you will pray and have pity on our miserable selves until we see things God's (your) way.

I promise this is my last post in this thread. To other "unbelievers" who post, like Medium Tex and Pointedstick, I think you should start to realize that this isn't really a forum for rational discussion of religion and any points you are trying to make to close-minded individuals are going absolutely nowhere. They intend only to chew you up and spit you out, unless they can convert you and make you into a clone of themselves. I suspect you already know this. So I think the best thing you can do is let the believers all preach to the choir and enjoy themselves until they realize nobody else is listening.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Stewardship » Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:53 am

The thing that nagged me most when I was an agnostic wasn't the question of death, but the question of my own existence and consciousness which would just about require the existence of a power beyond the universe as I perceived it.

Have these questions (your existence and consciousness) been tackled yet in this thread?

If my existence depended on a certain sperm entering a certain egg, then by that alone the odds against my existence were incredible, almost impossible.  Yet, here I am.  No, something else must be at work.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:34 am

Stewardship wrote: The thing that nagged me most when I was an agnostic wasn't the question of death, but the question of my own existence and consciousness which would just about require the existence of a power beyond the universe.

Have these questions (your existence and consciousness) been tackled yet in this thread?

If my existence depended on a certain sperm entering a certain egg, then by that alone the odds against my existence were incredible, almost impossible.  Yet, here I am.  No, something else must be at work.
I think that the intuition you are describing is the seed of all religious belief systems.

I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea that our consciousness suggests that there may be something external to us directing everything, but that still leaves us with the challenge of figuring out which religious belief system (if any) provides an accurate articulation of the intuition you are describing.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:45 am

Mountaineer wrote: I am never sure why you use Hebrew Scripture to justify or prove things.  Just because the Jewish people had laws of such and such does not mean that it translates into the New Testament ethos.
From a logical perspective, if someone claims that every word of a religious text is true, all a skeptic needs to do is prove that one word is false, and the skeptic wins.  I think that the people who take every word of the Bible as truth are setting themselves up for a losing logical effort.
What you read or hear in St. Paul about marriage or purity or homosexuality Romans 1, has to do with the issue that St. Paul's life was changed when he was met by the Lord Jesus.  God's law became more severe as the severity of Christ's death put an end to that legal severity.  St. Paul's Judaism or heritage was secondary to the love and forgiveness he found in Jesus.  Christian leaders should convey this difference and contrast.  But in today's liberal churches anything goes in terms of what is brought out to be taught especially in the way the Hebrew Scriptures become a standard rather than as something that has become obsolete and will soon disappear (see Hebrews 8, esp. verse 13 and 2 Corinthians 3).
Wait a second, I thought that Jesus made it clear that the Law was still in effect.  Didn't he say that he didn't come to abolish the Jewish Law?
On the topic of wanting to be God - my perspective on that is man, most men actually, have a preference for their own reason and knowledge and experience to rule their lives; if they can't understand something, it is wrong, or at least very suspect.  Those men are very suspect of God's revealed Word since they think it can not be proven.  I'd even go so far to say that Shakespeare, Homer, Julius Caesar, Charles Darwin, or even my great grandfather cannot be proven - I have not personally met any of them and have no means of doing so.  Why should I believe the words of someone else that all that exists that I have not personally observed is true?  In the matter of the Holy Trinity, I believe it because it is true.  Many or most would disagree with me, even probably many of the 25% of the world's population that professes to be Christian.
How did you arrive at the conclusion that it is true?  Did you use your reason and knowledge?  If so, does that mean that you want to be God?  I'm not following what you are saying here.
Just something to think about when the wrath of God in the First Testament starts bothering you.
That's a strange way of thinking about it.  Are you saying that if I find the wanton brutality that God exhibited toward friend and foe alike in the OT offensive, it means that I want to be God?  I don't want to be God at all, but if someone else says they know who God is, and they show me the sectarian bully in the OT, I think that I should be able to say "That doesn't look very God-like to me" without it leading to the conclusion that I want to be God.

If I am sitting at a professional sporting event and someone tells me how great a quarterback is, but all I see him do is throw a bunch of interceptions and pee in the other teams' Gatorade jug, and I point out that he doesn't look that great to me, it doesn't follow that I would be claiming to be a better quarterback myself.  Do you see what I mean?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Stewardship » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:53 am

MediumTex wrote:
I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea that our consciousness suggests that there may be something external to us directing everything, but that still leaves us with the challenge of figuring out which religious belief system (if any) provides an accurate articulation of the intuition you are describing.
True!  But that is an important first step in a process and lifelong journey.  For various reasons, the Bible was the next place for me to investigate.  There, on the first page on the first verse, Genesis 1:1 reads "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."  A profound, bold beginning statement!  Then I read on...
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:56 am

Fred wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: I really feel for you man.  You seem to be in such a dark place and so desparately wanting others to join you in your misery.  Blessings Dude!  Have a joyful day.  Cheer up.  This is the day the Lord has made.  Rejoice!  Tomorrow is a brand new day, remember your baptism, spread some cheer to your friends and neighbors, ask how you can help them meet their needs.  Focus outward and not inward at the sorrowful thoughts you may be feeling.  :)
Another great example of your sickening condescension Mountaineer.

You are right. Everybody else is wrong. But you will pray and have pity on our miserable selves until we see things God's (your) way.

I promise this is my last post in this thread. To other "unbelievers" who post, like Medium Tex and Pointedstick, I think you should start to realize that this isn't really a forum for rational discussion of religion and any points you are trying to make to close-minded individuals are going absolutely nowhere. They intend only to chew you up and spit you out, unless they can convert you and make you into a clone of themselves. I suspect you already know this. So I think the best thing you can do is let the believers all preach to the choir and enjoy themselves until they realize nobody else is listening.
Fred,

This discussion is clearly agitating you, and I'm not saying that you're wrong about the implications of what Mountaineer is arguing, but I really don't think that Mountaineer, Desert or Gregg are trying to agitate anyone.

I don't want to convert them to my way of thinking.  I just want to gain the deepest possible understanding that I can of why they believe the things that they believe.  In the process of doing that, I don't mind doing a little stress testing of their beliefs, but it's not to belittle them, but rather to see how they explain (or rationalize) things that make no sense to me, but which clearly make sense to them.

I think that there is an art to gaining a true understanding of another person's thought process without feeling the need to judge it or position it in relation to yours based upon a right/wrong framework.  Anthropologists do this sort of thing all the time, and I think that it's a great way of sharing beliefs without proselytizing excessively.

I'm really enjoying the discussion and I appreciate everyone who is hanging in there with me.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by mathjak107 » Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:12 am

the worst thing about being an atheist is you got no one to talk to when having sex  ha ha ha 
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Stewardship » Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:46 am

Don't jump to conclusions when coming across difficult passages in the Bible.

Fr. Robert Barron on Violence in the Bible
https://youtu.be/1A65Wfr2is0
If you read the Bible in such a way that it leads you to say violence is a good thing, I should be more violent, or that God is hateful and violent, then you have ipso facto misread it because you have not read it from the standpoint of the "lamb standing as though slain."
Pope Benedict on the subject in VERBUM DOMINI:
In discussing the relationship between the Old and the New Testaments, the Synod also considered those passages in the Bible which, due to the violence and immorality they occasionally contain, prove obscure and difficult.

Here it must be remembered first and foremost that biblical revelation is deeply rooted in history. God’s plan is manifested progressively and it is accomplished slowly, in successive stages and despite human resistance.

God chose a people and patiently worked to guide and educate them. Revelation is suited to the cultural and moral level of distant times and thus describes facts and customs, such as cheating and trickery, and acts of violence and massacre, without explicitly denouncing the immorality of such things.

This can be explained by the historical context, yet it can cause the modern reader to be taken aback, especially if he or she fails to take account of the many “dark” deeds carried out down the centuries, and also in our own day. In the Old Testament, the preaching of the prophets vigorously challenged every kind of injustice and violence, whether collective or individual, and thus became God’s way of training his people in preparation for the Gospel.

So it would be a mistake to neglect those passages of Scripture that strike us as problematic. Rather, we should be aware that the correct interpretation of these passages requires a degree of expertise, acquired through a training that interprets the texts in their historical-literary context and within the Christian perspective which has as its ultimate hermeneutical key “the Gospel and the new commandment of Jesus Christ brought about in the paschal mystery”.

I encourage scholars and pastors to help all the faithful to approach these passages through an interpretation which enables their meaning to emerge in the light of the mystery of Christ.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:37 am

MediumTex wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: I am never sure why you use Hebrew Scripture to justify or prove things.  Just because the Jewish people had laws of such and such does not mean that it translates into the New Testament ethos.
From a logical perspective, if someone claims that every word of a religious text is true, all a skeptic needs to do is prove that one word is false, and the skeptic wins.  I think that the people who take every word of the Bible as truth are setting themselves up for a losing logical effort.
What you read or hear in St. Paul about marriage or purity or homosexuality Romans 1, has to do with the issue that St. Paul's life was changed when he was met by the Lord Jesus.  God's law became more severe as the severity of Christ's death put an end to that legal severity.  St. Paul's Judaism or heritage was secondary to the love and forgiveness he found in Jesus.  Christian leaders should convey this difference and contrast.  But in today's liberal churches anything goes in terms of what is brought out to be taught especially in the way the Hebrew Scriptures become a standard rather than as something that has become obsolete and will soon disappear (see Hebrews 8, esp. verse 13 and 2 Corinthians 3).
Wait a second, I thought that Jesus made it clear that the Law was still in effect.  Didn't he say that he didn't come to abolish the Jewish Law?
MT, those are good questions.  I think I see where you are coming from.  This is my take.

Here are Jesus' words:
Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."  For more discussion of "fulfilling the Law" see Luke 24:44, John 15:25, Romans 8:4, Romans 13:8, Romans 13:10, Galatians 5:14, Galatians 6:2, and James 2:8 - all verses should be read in the context of the whole pericope they are contained in.  When you read these verses, try to think about which are Law (something required by God for you to do) and which are Gospel (something done by God for you).

Fulfill is a key word in this context.  [Also think about the words "until all is accomplished" in terms of the cross, what do you think that might mean?]  The Law always accuses, that is its purpose, to make all of us see how far short we fall from all that God commands if one wishes to be righteous in God's eyes.  Then Jesus makes the Law even more severe.  For example, the 10 Commandmants say do not murder, Jesus says don't even have evil thoughts; the 10 Commandements say do not commit adultry, Jesus says do not even look at a woman with lust in your heart (paraphrased).  No human has ever been righteous before God by fulfilling the Law other than Jesus.  The only way to become righteous before God is to understand and believe that you are righteous (justified) because of what Jesus did in your place to meet God's standards for you, that is hear the Gospel, it is for you, and for me, and for all.  I have not refused the gift of the Gospel - that is I have not used my reason to say "I can't see that gift inside the box, how do I know it is real?  No thanks, one must be delusional to actually believe the gift giver when he says, enclosed is a wonderful gift but you can't open the package right now."  If I use my reason instead of trusting the gift giver's words, have I decided I know more than the giver, that my skepticism overrules my trust?  That is have I "played God" in this metaphor?

Some other thoughts on the law:  The Reformed * (Yes, they may argue it but when pushed hard enough it will come down to fulfilling the law.) and others see the fulfilling of the law as the ultimate goal of human existence. Karl Barth is in this camp.  Lutherans are not. In Christ we have the fulfillment of all things, the telos (an immense term in the Greek) of all things. When we cast about for some sense of purpose and goal beyond the presence of Jesus, we are casting about for some idol because Jesus simply cannot be the answer to human being in our not so humble (fallen) existence. The law, the greatest word from God outside of the Word made flesh, has its purposes but there is no salvation in it. It is the pedagogue, the slave teacher who runs the classroom of life, until the Master shows up. In Christ we have the Master. We listen for His Voice, we listen for His teaching. The law will always be with us while we are in the flesh, to curb, guide, and accuse, so we continue to turn to the Master with praying hearts "Lord remember me when you come onto your Kingdom." A plea which does not go unheard.  A thing is either Christ or not Christ. Only Christ saves.  The law is not Christ.  It is penultimate.

Be careful with the law. St Paul warns us we are either in the law or in Christ; dismissed from the law or dismissed from Christ....  I wish to be found in Christ.

My reading of some of your questions, and others' questions, and my own questions, is that we are frustrated with the tension that comes from living between Law and Gospel.  Lutheran doctrine encourages us to embrace the tension, and recognize there's no escape as long as we are simultaneously sinner and saint.  I struggle with the tension too.

Lastly, an audio presentation you may find interesting is:  http://issuesetc.org/2015/09/15/3-respo ... 1515/  It discusses the topic of "will", "faith", and such and where it comes from. 

* Reformed Churches:  http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp? ... RCHES  Also note this article has a link to Arminianism (of which Methodism is a derivative) that you may find interesting.  http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp? ... RMINIANISM

... M
Last edited by Mountaineer on Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:54 am

MediumTex wrote:
Fred wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: I really feel for you man.  You seem to be in such a dark place and so desparately wanting others to join you in your misery.  Blessings Dude!  Have a joyful day.  Cheer up.  This is the day the Lord has made.  Rejoice!  Tomorrow is a brand new day, remember your baptism, spread some cheer to your friends and neighbors, ask how you can help them meet their needs.  Focus outward and not inward at the sorrowful thoughts you may be feeling.  :)
Another great example of your sickening condescension Mountaineer.

You are right. Everybody else is wrong. But you will pray and have pity on our miserable selves until we see things God's (your) way.

I promise this is my last post in this thread. To other "unbelievers" who post, like Medium Tex and Pointedstick, I think you should start to realize that this isn't really a forum for rational discussion of religion and any points you are trying to make to close-minded individuals are going absolutely nowhere. They intend only to chew you up and spit you out, unless they can convert you and make you into a clone of themselves. I suspect you already know this. So I think the best thing you can do is let the believers all preach to the choir and enjoy themselves until they realize nobody else is listening.
Fred,

This discussion is clearly agitating you, and I'm not saying that you're wrong about the implications of what Mountaineer is arguing, but I really don't think that Mountaineer, Desert or Gregg are trying to agitate anyone.

I don't want to convert them to my way of thinking.  I just want to gain the deepest possible understanding that I can of why they believe the things that they believe.  In the process of doing that, I don't mind doing a little stress testing of their beliefs, but it's not to belittle them, but rather to see how they explain (or rationalize) things that make no sense to me, but which clearly make sense to them.

I think that there is an art to gaining a true understanding of another person's thought process without feeling the need to judge it or position it in relation to yours based upon a right/wrong framework.  Anthropologists do this sort of thing all the time, and I think that it's a great way of sharing beliefs without proselytizing excessively.

I'm really enjoying the discussion and I appreciate everyone who is hanging in there with me.
MT,

Just sitting here hanging with you.  You know the only reason I engage with you is that you gave me such great advice on the Spyderco Delica that I am craving another jewel of wisdom from you; I can't give up now, the next jewel may be revealed at any moment.  The Spyderco is useful every day, the Permanent Portfolio stuff you wrote about so eloquently requires trust in a future that is unknown, if you get my drift.  ;D  Seriously, I also really enjoy the discussion, it has made me deeply examine my beliefs, why I have them, and has strengthened my trust in the promises of Jesus.  I just wish I were more articulate, but I am who I am and have to work with the gifts God has given me.  ;)

... M
Last edited by Mountaineer on Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:07 am

MediumTex wrote:If I am sitting at a professional sporting event and someone tells me how great a quarterback is, but all I see him do is throw a bunch of interceptions and pee in the other teams' Gatorade jug, and I point out that he doesn't look that great to me, it doesn't follow that I would be claiming to be a better quarterback myself.  Do you see what I mean?
It doesn't mean that you want to be a quarterback, but to some extent, you're putting yourself in the position of talent scout, coach, and general manager when you pass judgment on a quarterback.

When you pass judgment on God, you're putting yourself in the position of God.  When you say what God did was wrong and what I would have done would have been right, then you're exhibiting what in fact is the original sin: pride, wanting to be God.

Now, there are plenty of "gods" that I disagree with, but I don't conclude they're not God because I disagree with them.  If the true God only did things that I agreed with, that would be a very strange situation indeed.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:27 am

Following is a very interesting perspective from a Pastor at that "other forum" I read sometimes.  It is addressed to a self-proclaimed atheist.  It sounds like some of the stories on this forum.  Anyway, here it is:

... M

Of course it goes the other way as well.  When I was an agnostic (not enough faith to be an atheist--absolute disbelief takes some faith as well), my hope and desire was that there wasn't a God (Freud's failure was to admit that desires cut both ways and  desires pretty much cancel each other out as sources of truth).  I had my own life to live, on my terms, to get and do what I wanted (insofar as I had to exist in the bounds of human society and avoid imprisonment and be able to exchange goods and services with others).  The last thing I wanted was Divine Being of any sort, any lord, that I would have to answer to, who would hold me accountable.  Agnosticism was a very convenient and ready-made structure for living my life with myself at the center, again within the bounds of civilized society.  Death as oblivion seemed far more appealing than death as call before a judge.  To my dismay the pillars of my unbelief crumbled beneath the cumulative weight of evidences (not proofs mind you--but then my own unbelief had no proofs to back it up either): 
1. the human insistence that aesthetic judgments can be made, that when we are struck by beauty, whether of nature or a piece of music or even poetry--an accidental, godless universe does not allow that.
2.  the persistence of moral judgments, that there is a right and wrong; I was horrified to discover that when I applied my own moral judgment (the standards I used in judging others), I failed to live up to my own (minimal as they were) judgments.  Without "oughts" there is no civilized life possible, even though we often resent and chafe against those oughts, even when we have whittled them down as far as we can to suit our own "exceptions."  If the natural law was merely our self-centered self-serving instincts subject to our choices, we would never make judgments against ourselves.  The persistence of the natural moral law across cultures and time even with huge blind spots and faulty human perception and application, pointed to a power beyond accident or evolution.  If the universe is a mere accident, then no moral judgments are valid, including those I held as an agnostic.
3.  The same was true for what I thought of as my power of reason, of knowing truth through inference and the exercise of reason.  Whence came that power, limited and finite and faulty as mine may have been?  If the universe is an unknowable accident, then there is no reason, and therefore my claim that the universe is an unknowable accident is likewise irrational.  My agnosticism, like atheism, was rationally self-defeating. 
Mind you, these evidences and others are far from proofs and even farther from convincing me, at that time, of the truth of Christianity---but my agnosticism crumbled like a dry cookie under the weight of a concrete block.  And the atheists--both ancient and modern (Russell, Nietzche, Feuerbach, Marx, et al) offered nothing that could resist the crumbling.  Their systems required the validity of reason without God but they couldn't prove the validity of reason in principle other than to simply assume that somehow reason exists miraculously on its own, despite the obvious mortality and finitude of those who claimed to exercise and appeal to it.   
I'll stop there but as one who desperately desired God's non-existence, your easy advice, as self-identified atheist, of embracing Law and Gospel as a means for relief for those afflicted with belief in God's existence strikes me as smugly nonsensical and self-serving.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by dualstow » Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:29 am

Well, I wouldn't call it straw men, but the author mentioned some Jesus-Osiris differences which I never thought were similarities anyway. But fair enough, I think he's got his facts straight, and maybe someone out there thought someone ate Osiris communion wafers.
---
dualstow wrote:
Desert wrote: It is difficult, I agree.  But is the right conclusion to say that they're all wrong?  Or would it be prudent to study in more detail? 
Oh, I wouldn't conclude that they're all wrong, but I would assert that it's impossible for a mere mortal to know which door is the right one.
Thanks for that! Will read this evening.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:28 pm

TennPaGa wrote:
Xan wrote:
MediumTex wrote:If I am sitting at a professional sporting event and someone tells me how great a quarterback is, but all I see him do is throw a bunch of interceptions and pee in the other teams' Gatorade jug, and I point out that he doesn't look that great to me, it doesn't follow that I would be claiming to be a better quarterback myself.  Do you see what I mean?
It doesn't mean that you want to be a quarterback, but to some extent, you're putting yourself in the position of talent scout, coach, and general manager when you pass judgment on a quarterback.
The talent scout has the ear of management on future player acquisitions.  The coach has control over who plays quarterback, and what plays he calls.  The GM acquires the players.  MT is none of these things in the analogy.  He is just a fan in the stands making the observation that the quarterback is throwing a bunch of interceptions and pissing in the other team's Gatorade, and then making the evaluation that these are not typical things good quarterbacks do.  It still doesn't mean he wants to be quarterback.
I'm not saying he wants to be quarterback, but he's putting himself in the position of those above the quarterback.
TennPaGa wrote:
When you pass judgment on God, you're putting yourself in the position of God.
This isn't the case in the quarterback situation, though.  Why is it the case here?
There isn't an office above God.  The only option when passing on judgment on God is to swap places.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:03 pm

Xan wrote:
TennPaGa wrote:
Xan wrote:

It doesn't mean that you want to be a quarterback, but to some extent, you're putting yourself in the position of talent scout, coach, and general manager when you pass judgment on a quarterback.
The talent scout has the ear of management on future player acquisitions.  The coach has control over who plays quarterback, and what plays he calls.  The GM acquires the players.  MT is none of these things in the analogy.  He is just a fan in the stands making the observation that the quarterback is throwing a bunch of interceptions and pissing in the other team's Gatorade, and then making the evaluation that these are not typical things good quarterbacks do.  It still doesn't mean he wants to be quarterback.
I'm not saying he wants to be quarterback, but he's putting himself in the position of those above the quarterback.
TennPaGa wrote:
When you pass judgment on God, you're putting yourself in the position of God.
This isn't the case in the quarterback situation, though.  Why is it the case here?
There isn't an office above God.  The only option when passing on judgment on God is to swap places.
The intention of my analogy was to show that even by the standards that quarterbacks set for themselves, an interception is a things to be avoided.  When I observe the interceptions from the stands, I am observing the quarterback failing to follow a standard he set for himself when he became a quarterback.

Sometimes, a player who isn't intended to be a quarterback finds himself in that role, and you can tell that he isn't intended to be a quarterback because, among other things, he throws a lot of interceptions.

A common, and I think reasonable, standard of proof to follow when someone is making a supernatural claim is whether the premises supporting the supernatural claim are at least coherent.  So, for example, if I say that "God exists, and because Man is evil he needs to have certain arrangements made to commune with God because God can only commune with that which is good and righteous", but then I show you a God who is hosting post-battle orgies, killing babies, ruining guys like Job for sport, setting up an eternal torture chamber called Hell for people who never even heard about him, etc., you might point out to me that the type of God I described is not the God I actually presented, and I think that a disconnect like that would seriously undermine the credibility of the supernatural claim.

I just feel like God shouldn't be constantly breaking character if he expects me to believe that he is real.

And remember, too, that there may be a real God out there somewhere who is the source of the universe, and the God from the Bible might just be a an anthropomorphised knock-off.  I think that could easily be the case, and the real God is just choosing not to reveal himself to us at all at this time.  He is simply letting his creation play out based on the way he designed it.  In my example, the real God would find it amusing that we are making such efforts to understand the nature of a supernatural being that doesn't exist, while failing to grasp that there is a real deity out there, whose nature might be infinitely more interesting than the nature of the xenophobic sexist God from the Bible.  It's the same mistake that the little plastic army men make.
interactive processing wrote: "an anthropomorphised knock-off." is how i see the christian god being described in this thread as well, the very act of using words to describe the "transcendent", color, limit and create contradictions in the understanding of the thing being described. words at best can only be a sign post pointing in a direction you should travel.. when taken as such the meaning of the bible and the reality of what Christ was trying to get across looks nothing like the mental gymnastics being preformed by the Christians we are trying to understand ..
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Gosso » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:26 pm

Stewardship wrote: Don't jump to conclusions when coming across difficult passages in the Bible.

Fr. Robert Barron on Violence in the Bible
https://youtu.be/1A65Wfr2is0
If you read the Bible in such a way that it leads you to say violence is a good thing, I should be more violent, or that God is hateful and violent, then you have ipso facto misread it because you have not read it from the standpoint of the "lamb standing as though slain."
Pope Benedict on the subject in VERBUM DOMINI:
In discussing the relationship between the Old and the New Testaments, the Synod also considered those passages in the Bible which, due to the violence and immorality they occasionally contain, prove obscure and difficult.

Here it must be remembered first and foremost that biblical revelation is deeply rooted in history. God’s plan is manifested progressively and it is accomplished slowly, in successive stages and despite human resistance.

God chose a people and patiently worked to guide and educate them. Revelation is suited to the cultural and moral level of distant times and thus describes facts and customs, such as cheating and trickery, and acts of violence and massacre, without explicitly denouncing the immorality of such things.

This can be explained by the historical context, yet it can cause the modern reader to be taken aback, especially if he or she fails to take account of the many “dark” deeds carried out down the centuries, and also in our own day. In the Old Testament, the preaching of the prophets vigorously challenged every kind of injustice and violence, whether collective or individual, and thus became God’s way of training his people in preparation for the Gospel.

So it would be a mistake to neglect those passages of Scripture that strike us as problematic. Rather, we should be aware that the correct interpretation of these passages requires a degree of expertise, acquired through a training that interprets the texts in their historical-literary context and within the Christian perspective which has as its ultimate hermeneutical key “the Gospel and the new commandment of Jesus Christ brought about in the paschal mystery”.

I encourage scholars and pastors to help all the faithful to approach these passages through an interpretation which enables their meaning to emerge in the light of the mystery of Christ.
+1.  But sadly I doubt your post will gain much interest among the participants in this thread.  It seems to be sola scriptura or bust.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:45 pm

Gosso wrote:
Stewardship wrote: Don't jump to conclusions when coming across difficult passages in the Bible.

Fr. Robert Barron on Violence in the Bible
https://youtu.be/1A65Wfr2is0
If you read the Bible in such a way that it leads you to say violence is a good thing, I should be more violent, or that God is hateful and violent, then you have ipso facto misread it because you have not read it from the standpoint of the "lamb standing as though slain."
Pope Benedict on the subject in VERBUM DOMINI:
In discussing the relationship between the Old and the New Testaments, the Synod also considered those passages in the Bible which, due to the violence and immorality they occasionally contain, prove obscure and difficult.

Here it must be remembered first and foremost that biblical revelation is deeply rooted in history. God’s plan is manifested progressively and it is accomplished slowly, in successive stages and despite human resistance.

God chose a people and patiently worked to guide and educate them. Revelation is suited to the cultural and moral level of distant times and thus describes facts and customs, such as cheating and trickery, and acts of violence and massacre, without explicitly denouncing the immorality of such things.

This can be explained by the historical context, yet it can cause the modern reader to be taken aback, especially if he or she fails to take account of the many “dark” deeds carried out down the centuries, and also in our own day. In the Old Testament, the preaching of the prophets vigorously challenged every kind of injustice and violence, whether collective or individual, and thus became God’s way of training his people in preparation for the Gospel.

So it would be a mistake to neglect those passages of Scripture that strike us as problematic. Rather, we should be aware that the correct interpretation of these passages requires a degree of expertise, acquired through a training that interprets the texts in their historical-literary context and within the Christian perspective which has as its ultimate hermeneutical key “the Gospel and the new commandment of Jesus Christ brought about in the paschal mystery”.

I encourage scholars and pastors to help all the faithful to approach these passages through an interpretation which enables their meaning to emerge in the light of the mystery of Christ.
+1.  But sadly I doubt your post will gain much interest among the participates in this thread.  It seems to be sola scriptura or bust.
It sounds like Pope Benedict was simply arguing for some sort of moral relativism.

Isn't he just saying that back in frontier days it was cool for Solomon to have 400 wives and 600 concubines, for God to kill on a massive scale, and for the winners to do a little raping and pillaging with God's approval, even though God would never approve such things today?

I guess the good news is that what Pope Benedict is saying might also mean that those male ancestors we all have who married girls under 18 may not have been pedophiles after all.  It's always bothered me a little bit that what we call pedophilia today (and which will get you a ticket to prison for many years and a lifetime of registering as a "sex offender") was unremarkable in many communities only a few generations ago, and is still common in many parts of the world today (it's just academic to me, though, because I prefer older women :) ). 

Morals are always a function of the times we live in.  Think about how during wartime a society of men who would mostly say that killing is wrong march out to the battlefield with the goal of killing as many of the enemy as possible.

Is it wrong to kill babies?  Was it wrong back when we were hunter/gatherers and the clan knew exactly how many mouths it could feed and practiced infanticide on those they could not support?  Moral relativism.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Gosso » Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:41 pm

MT,

It seems that the Pope was suggesting that morality "grows" as human society learns more.  I believe there is a core morality that everyone has, it just requires a proper cleaning of the glass to see it properly.

But I was mainly +1ing the YouTube clip from Bishop Robert Barron.  His work is fantastic.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:45 am

Gosso wrote:
Stewardship wrote: Don't jump to conclusions when coming across difficult passages in the Bible.

Fr. Robert Barron on Violence in the Bible
https://youtu.be/1A65Wfr2is0
If you read the Bible in such a way that it leads you to say violence is a good thing, I should be more violent, or that God is hateful and violent, then you have ipso facto misread it because you have not read it from the standpoint of the "lamb standing as though slain."
Pope Benedict on the subject in VERBUM DOMINI:
In discussing the relationship between the Old and the New Testaments, the Synod also considered those passages in the Bible which, due to the violence and immorality they occasionally contain, prove obscure and difficult.

Here it must be remembered first and foremost that biblical revelation is deeply rooted in history. God’s plan is manifested progressively and it is accomplished slowly, in successive stages and despite human resistance.

God chose a people and patiently worked to guide and educate them. Revelation is suited to the cultural and moral level of distant times and thus describes facts and customs, such as cheating and trickery, and acts of violence and massacre, without explicitly denouncing the immorality of such things.

This can be explained by the historical context, yet it can cause the modern reader to be taken aback, especially if he or she fails to take account of the many “dark” deeds carried out down the centuries, and also in our own day. In the Old Testament, the preaching of the prophets vigorously challenged every kind of injustice and violence, whether collective or individual, and thus became God’s way of training his people in preparation for the Gospel.

So it would be a mistake to neglect those passages of Scripture that strike us as problematic. Rather, we should be aware that the correct interpretation of these passages requires a degree of expertise, acquired through a training that interprets the texts in their historical-literary context and within the Christian perspective which has as its ultimate hermeneutical key “the Gospel and the new commandment of Jesus Christ brought about in the paschal mystery”.

I encourage scholars and pastors to help all the faithful to approach these passages through an interpretation which enables their meaning to emerge in the light of the mystery of Christ.
+1.  But sadly I doubt your post will gain much interest among the participants in this thread.  It seems to be sola scriptura or bust.
Stewardship and Gosso,

Thanks for the posts.  I agree with most of what Fr. Barron and Pope Benedict are saying about how to interpret Scripture.  Especially the context part (not only context within the Scripture pericope or Book but also context of to whom the message was addressed, when, where, who wrote it, what is symbolic, what is factual, etc.) and reading the OT through the lens of the NT - i.e. a Christocentric perspective.  A literal interpretation of Scripture frequently leads one to be anchored in the Law (which in my opinion ultimately leads one to either pride or dispair or abandonment of faith) to the exclusion of hearing the Gospel.  I also thought the reference to the Church Fathers was spot on - in our current day we think we are so "smart" when we come up with all the questions, comments, and concerns about contradictions in Scripture.  These things were hammered out almost two thousand years ago - little we come up with is new; in my opinion it is just our prideful sinful self that thinks we know better on the significant Scriptural doctrines than those who came before.  There are really no significant Scriptural contradictions, just our limited understanding from a sometimes superficial or misguided knowledge of Scripture.  Anyway, thanks for sharing.

... M
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:10 am

Desert wrote:You might want to look beyond a blood-soaked religion and see the blood-soaked world.  This world is, and has always been, a very violent and bloody place.  Despite our outrageous wealth in this country and other first world nations, we are all going to depart this world in a painful death.  In between our birth and death, we're going to look around and see humans constantly killing each other.  I'm not trying to be dark; there are wonderful things around us as well, but this world is full of brutal murder and tragic death.  It is blood soaked.
Excellent point.  Many here are (fallaciously) separating the Old Testament God of wrath from the New Testament God of love, and then balking at the God of wrath.  Of the two (which of course really are one and the same), it seems strange to declare that it's the God of wrath who isn't compatible with this world.  I mean, look around.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:38 pm

MediumTex wrote:The intention of my analogy was to show that even by the standards that quarterbacks set for themselves, an interception is a things to be avoided.
Well hang on.  God never set ANY standards for himself.  He sets standards for us.  It wasn't "Killing is wrong", it was "THOU shalt not kill".  He even says "Vengeance is mine" (meaning that it is not our place to avenge, but also that He certainly may).

God is an entirely free spirit, answerable to no one but Himself.  He has told us where He can be found FOR US (of course He can be found everywhere, but without the promise of being for us, who knows what might happen): in the gathering of believers, with the preached Word, with the waters of Baptism, with the bread and wine and body and blood of the Sacrament.  That's where He has bound Himself by his own promise to be, for us.
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