Who Killed Kennedy?

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What's your view of the Kennedy assassination?

The evidence is overwhelming, it was a conspiracy.
4
15%
Lots of questions and loose ends, it might have been a conspiracy.
4
15%
I am unsure.
4
15%
There are some unanswered questions, but the evidence points to Oswald.
10
38%
The evidence is overwhelming, Oswald did it alone.
4
15%
 
Total votes: 26
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by dualstow » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:49 pm

Reub wrote: There is also evidence (obviously) that Oswald was shot to death shortly thereafter. That certainly raises flags with me.
Why wasn't he killed immediately after he killed Kennedy?
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by ns2 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:04 pm

Nobody saw Kennedy get killed live because it wasn't filmed except for the independent Zapruder film but maybe another interesting poll on the 50'th anniversary here on the forum would be how many of you witnessed the live execution of Oswald on National TV?

I did. Along with my family. As I recall it, it was on Sunday around the same time my Dad used to watch meet the press but we were all gathered around the TV that weekend. And then bang - what the hell just happened. I was 14. Same year as the Beatles on Ed Sullivan.
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by Reub » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:41 pm

dualstow wrote:
Reub wrote: There is also evidence (obviously) that Oswald was shot to death shortly thereafter. That certainly raises flags with me.
Why wasn't he killed immediately after he killed Kennedy?
You'll have to ask the puppetmasters about that. Why was Oswald allowed to be such an amazingly easy target?
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by Ad Orientem » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:57 pm

Reub wrote:
dualstow wrote:
Reub wrote: There is also evidence (obviously) that Oswald was shot to death shortly thereafter. That certainly raises flags with me.
Why wasn't he killed immediately after he killed Kennedy?
You'll have to ask the puppetmasters about that. Why was Oswald allowed to be such an amazingly easy target?
Because the Dallas PD was stunningly incompetent, a fact generally recognized even by conspiracy theorists.
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by dualstow » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:09 am

ns2 wrote: Nobody saw Kennedy get killed live because it wasn't filmed except for the independent Zapruder film
That's incorrect. There were other films, but the Zapruder film is the most famous and the most complete.
Last edited by dualstow on Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:13 am

Ad Orientem wrote:
Reub wrote:
dualstow wrote: Why wasn't he killed immediately after he killed Kennedy?
You'll have to ask the puppetmasters about that. Why was Oswald allowed to be such an amazingly easy target?
Because the Dallas PD was stunningly incompetent, a fact generally recognized even by conspiracy theorists.
Then it's a good thing they weren't corrupt as well, or there might be some substance to the "conspiracy theories"!
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by Ad Orientem » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:18 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote:
Reub wrote: You'll have to ask the puppetmasters about that. Why was Oswald allowed to be such an amazingly easy target?
Because the Dallas PD was stunningly incompetent, a fact generally recognized even by conspiracy theorists.
Then it's a good thing they weren't corrupt as well, or there might be some substance to the "conspiracy theories"!
Once again we are back to conjecture. Where is the actual evidence of a conspiracy? Show me something that could be admitted in a court of law. Show me forensic evidence of a second gunman. Show me hard proof of a cover up. Show me that all of the eye witnesses who saw Oswald shooting the cop and firing from the sixth floor window were liars. Show me that the ballistics don't match.

Show me SOMETHING that is real proof, not just hypothetical silliness. I am told Oswald's brother was a Free Mason. Maybe they ordered the hit!
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:20 am

Ad Orientem wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote: Because the Dallas PD was stunningly incompetent, a fact generally recognized even by conspiracy theorists.
Then it's a good thing they weren't corrupt as well, or there might be some substance to the "conspiracy theories"!
Once again we are back to conjecture. Where is the actual evidence of a conspiracy? Show me something that could be admitted in a court of law. Show me forensic evidence of a second gunman. Show me hard proof of a cover up. Show me that all of the eye witnesses who saw Oswald shooting the cop and firing from the sixth floor window were liars. Show me that the ballistics don't match.

Show me SOMETHING that is real proof, not just hypothetical silliness. I am told Oswald's brother was a Free Mason. Maybe they ordered the hit!
When I have read the book I linked to before, I'll let you know how good its arguments are.
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by Ad Orientem » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:32 am

Libertarian666 wrote: When I have read the book I linked to before, I'll let you know how good its arguments are.
Try reading the one I linked to. It's by far the most exhaustive work on the subject. And it explores in detail all of the major, and many of the minor, conspiracy theories. It is available in most well stocked libraries.
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:59 am

Ad Orientem wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote: When I have read the book I linked to before, I'll let you know how good its arguments are.
Try reading the one I linked to. It's by far the most exhaustive work on the subject. And it explores in detail all of the major, and many of the minor, conspiracy theories. It is available in most well stocked libraries.
It doesn't sound that impressive. Here's one of the Amazon reviews:

'Gosh, where to begin? Well, I guess I should start out by coming clean and admitting I haven't read the entire book. I tended to focus on sections that really interested me, especially the medical evidence and the autopsy, because its just so long. The sections that I did manage to get through were bad enough that I hope I can be excused for not plowing through all 1600 hardcover pages.

I've always admired Bugliosi. Helter Skelter is my favorite true crime book, and he's always seemed really sharp and insightful every time I've seen him on television, usually commenting on a court case. As someone who's pretty firmly on the conspiracy side of the fence, I was both looking forward to and dreading this book. If anyone could change my mind, it was Vince.

He did not succeed, though it wasn't for lack of trying. He starts out by applauding the Warren Commission and claiming that their only interest was in finding the truth. It's absurd to think that they would have pursued leads that pointed towards the mafia or CIA when that would have inevitably exposed a number of illegal CIA operations, including government plots to kill Fidel Castro that involved the mafia. This would have been disastrous to the agencies involved and to many of the nations' most powerful, influential people, including the Kennedys. And then there's all the dirt Hoover was holding over the Kennedy's. I wonder if Bugliosi has ever heard the audio tape of RFK calling LBJ and delicately trying to get some information on just how much he and Hoover had on them. It would be a good lesson on realpolitik for him. Yes, even the Kennedy's had reasons to want the Warren Commission to decide it was a lone nut.

Bugliosi succeeds in poking holes in some arguments that have been popular with the critics, pointing out the errors some researchers have made. Oliver Stone is a favorite whipping boy, but no one refers to his movie when they are looking for real research, I hope. This is a case where the primary suspect was held for two days and interrogated constantly by the FBI and the police and no record of what he said exists. Pretty astounding. Oh wait, there is that page of notes that Captain Fritz found later. There's really no excuse for this, though Bugliosi tries. Well, he wasn't saying much... They didn't know he would be dead soon... Yes, and they also didn't know when he might let something slip that might be important. This is the same FBI that ordered one of their agents to destroy evidence - a note that Oswald had left with the FBI. What exactly was on that note? We'll have to take the FBI's word for it that it was something that incriminated Oswald. They only destroyed it because it was kind of embarrassing that they overlooked it pre assassination. Bugliosi tends to take the government at its word even in situations where its been proven to be lying a lot.

The section on the autopsy was the one I was most interested in, and pretty well encapsulates how he approached this book. He's always had a feisty, no holds bar approach, but it's almost bizarre how frequently he descends into invective here. He can't get through a paragraph at times without insulting the critics. It's almost like he knows he's over promised by telling us that he's closing the case for good and is over compensating for that. Defending the choice of autopsy Doctors, he points out that in an interview Humes, the lead Dr. who wrote the report, actually said he had done autopsies on a few gunshot victims. It's pretty clear from the quote that these cases were pretty few. Humes can only specifically remember two of them. Bugliosi acts like this was some kind of deliberate omission by the critics, even though it doesn't make Humes any more qualified to be doing any kind of autopsy that involved a murder investigation, much less the President's. And none of them were in criminal cases. Humes wasn't trained for doing autopsies that involved a crime. He was not a forensic pathologist.. And there's also the fact that Humes only gave this interview 28 years after the autopsy, when the most well known assassination books had already been written.

Bugliosi is a strong believer in the House Select Committee on Assassinations, at least when they agree with him, like they do on the direction of the shots. He does admit that the HSCA's opinions of the autopsy doctors and their work were brutally negative. He then tries to salvage this by telling us that they "contradict themselves somewhat" when they say that there was enough there to show that Kennedy was shot from behind by two bullets. As if that disproves the notion that the autopsy was shockingly lacking. He even includes a quote in which one of the Doctors that worked for the HSCA panel mentions that the only thing they got wrong was the location of the head wounds. The HSCA put it near the top of Kennedy's head, while the autopsy had it at the bottom of the back of Kennedy's head, near what they call the external occipital protuberance. It's a difference of about three or four inches. That's huge when you're talking about the location of a head wound, and Bugliosi dismisses it as a "gaff". OK. Got the wound location wrong by several inches, didn't properly examine the brain or other evidence that would have given us more information about the trajectory of the bullets through Kennedy, but those crazy conspiracy theorists are being unfair when they say the problems with the autopsy are suspicious. How did the bullet go through Kennedy's neck without hitting the spine? We'd know if the autopsy was done correctly. Of course, Bugliosi blames this on the Kennedy's "limiting" the autopsy, but the only evidence he gives for this is that they didn't want Kennedy's Addison's disease mentioned, and that Jackie wasn't leaving until the autopsy was finished and the family could have the body with them.

There's more, of course. Eyewitness testimony is not reliable, unless it agrees with the Oswald as a lone nut version. Even if it comes from FBI, CIA, one of Lyndon Johnson's lawyers, high ranking mafia who were involved in a plot to kill Castro. They are just talking crazy, and should be ignored without a thought.

At this point I doubt we'll ever get to the "truth". The major players are dead. The time to look deeper into their stories and see where they could take us, to corroborate or disprove them, is passed. However, I don't think you can call everyone who's a doubter a kook. Not when even the man who put together the Warren commission was one. LBJ himself admitted several times that he wasn't sure about the Warren Commission's conclusions.

So I give this one star. Unless you're a student and want a good lesson in lawyerin' tricks.'
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by Ad Orientem » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:19 am

I read a lot of the negative comments and I noticed some common threads.

Most read only parts of the book, which admittedly is massive, and in some cases I suspect little or none. Secondly most demonstrated that that their minds were made up going in and were reverting to conjecture as a counter to facts. (i.e. it came from the FBI so we know that was a lie.)

I've been there so I know the mentality that grips so many of these people. The bottom line though is that the Kennedy assassination conspiracy has entered into the realm of urban legend. Once you go there it becomes more or less impossible to dislodge it. There reaches a point where the true believers are simply impervious to facts and logic. It took me probably twenty years before I could admit I had been wrong on the subject, and I still don't want to believe that a lone nut with a mail order rifle could kill the President of the United States in broad daylight. And having spent a lot of years venting at the people who still believed the government's coverup story and lies, I have little enthusiasm for waging a battle that I know is lost against the true believers.

Still there are some signs of hope. Recent polls show that while most Americans continue to believe in conspiracy, the numbers who don't are at the highest level since they have been polling on the subject.
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by 6 Iron » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:32 am

jan van mourik wrote: Nova: Cold Case JFK
Can modern forensic science uncover fresh clues about the assassination of JFK?
Aired November 13, 2013 on PBS
Jan, thanks for posting this link. They do a great job analyzing the ballistics, supporting the single bullet theory as well as explaining the head wound. I was hoping that there would be more on Jack Ruby, as this part of the saga just does not pass my sniff test. I realize that with the retrospectoscope, the area where Oswald was shot was far from secure, but he was killed by someone clearly willing to trade his life for Oswald's. That is powerful motivation, and I am not sure how that could have been foreseen.
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by Jan Van » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:35 am

Conspiracy theories are much more fun. This thread makes that fairly clear.  :)
When watching that Nova documentary I mentioned above, I was hoping it would lead to some cool new finds showing that indeed it probably wasn't just Oswald alone. But alas, didn't work out that way. So I guess it's the Occam's razor thingy...
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by Reub » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:33 pm

It is not a theory that Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald as he was being escorted under police protection. If not for this fact, I would probably believe the unlikely single-bullet, crazed gunman theory, even with Oswald's ties to the Soviets and to Cuba. But adding Ruby to this equation makes it too much for me to believe.
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by 6 Iron » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:55 pm

Does anyone have a good reference on Jack Ruby's involvement that they have found satisfying?
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by dualstow » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:12 pm

jan van mourik wrote: Conspiracy theories are much more fun. This thread makes that fairly clear.  :)
When watching that Nova documentary I mentioned above, I was hoping it would lead to some cool new finds showing that indeed it probably wasn't just Oswald alone. But alas, didn't work out that way. So I guess it's the Occam's razor thingy...
Yes!
I saw that documentary the other night, too. Very well done.
Reub wrote: It is not a theory that Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald as he was being escorted under police protection. If not for this fact, I would probably believe the unlikely single-bullet, crazed gunman theory, even with Oswald's ties to the Soviets and to Cuba. But adding Ruby to this equation makes it too much for me to believe.
I guess I'm just relieved that the burden of proof is not on believers of the mainstream theory. I mean, conspiracy theorists are free to theorize.
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by Reub » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:28 pm

This is not a court of law with the requisite of a burden of proof. Those who believe that there is something very suspicious about the strange series of events 50 years ago are entitled to their beliefs. Again, a man who had just assassinated the beloved President of the United States does not just get taken out by a nobody who is angry at him.
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by Kshartle » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:36 pm

I studied all the hard evidence and circumstantial stuff years ago and came to my conclusions about the murder. I can't remember 5% of it at this point.

I hafta say this.....if anyone believes Jack Ruby's story that he was distraught and didn't want to see Jackie go through the trial.........you will literally believe anything.
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:38 pm

This is the most entertaining analysis I've come accros - pure fiction but a completely entertaining read.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Third-Bullet- ... 145164020X

As for me, I think Col. Mustard did it in the dining room with the candle stick.  :P :P
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by dualstow » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:06 pm

Reub wrote: This is not a court of law with the requisite of a burden of proof. Those who believe that there is something very suspicious about the strange series of events 50 years ago are entitled to their beliefs. Again, a man who had just assassinated the beloved President of the United States does not just get taken out by a nobody who is angry at him.
But the beloved President of the United States was taken out by a nobody who was angry at him!
You're right: this is not a court. I was referring to the implicit burden of proof, b/c as far as the mainstream is concerned, case closed.
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by Reub » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:44 am

I have spent my entire life generally believing the story that Oswald and Ruby were both acting alone, with a few hints of doubt (was 6 at the time of the event). I really haven't even thought about JFK's assassination for many years until the anniversary approached. However, my belief system has been altered over the years by what I now know about government obfuscation and malfeasance....I saw it first hand with the TWA800 crash investigation and also with 9/11. Then Benghazi happened, where they have hidden away the witnesses and changed their names and sent out the ambassador to lie to the American people numerous times on television. Looking back at the JFK assassination, I now ask why wouldn't the government hide the truth if they wanted to?
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:16 am

Reub wrote: Looking back at the JFK assassination, I now ask why wouldn't the government hide the truth if they wanted to?
There's no question that people have been caught lying all the time.
I'm curious about why they would want to lie about this in the first place, unless you think it was a CIA job. Is that what you think happened?
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by ns2 » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:28 pm

dualstow wrote: There's no question that people have been caught lying all the time.
I'm curious about why they would want to lie about this in the first place, unless you think it was a CIA job. Is that what you think happened?
When it comes to politicians I don't think there is any point in looking for motives for why they lie. It's just what they do and it comes very natural to them.

I don't know about John Kennedy but I remember Bobby giving the peace sign and saying "on to Chicago" and then he was dead.

I have always believed this event probably altered the course of my own life.

Was there a vast conspiracy? Well, I was a devout Christian for a long time and truly devout Christians believe there is a vast conspiracy of evil going on in the universe despite Ad Orientem's very logical conclusions.
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by Ad Orientem » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:31 pm

ns2 wrote:
dualstow wrote: There's no question that people have been caught lying all the time.
I'm curious about why they would want to lie about this in the first place, unless you think it was a CIA job. Is that what you think happened?
When it comes to politicians I don't think there is any point in looking for motives for why they lie. It's just what they do and it comes very natural to them.

I don't know about John Kennedy but I remember Bobby giving the peace sign and saying "on to Chicago" and then he was dead.

I have always believed this event probably altered the course of my own life.

Was there a vast conspiracy? Well, I was a devout Christian for a long time and truly devout Christians believe there is a vast conspiracy of evil going on in the universe despite Ad Orientem's very logical conclusions.
I think one needs to be careful about assuming that the spiritual warfare that has been going on since the Fall implies all temporal crime (or sin) is a conspiracy.
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Re: Who Killed Kennedy?

Post by ns2 » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:53 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
ns2 wrote:
dualstow wrote: There's no question that people have been caught lying all the time.
I'm curious about why they would want to lie about this in the first place, unless you think it was a CIA job. Is that what you think happened?
When it comes to politicians I don't think there is any point in looking for motives for why they lie. It's just what they do and it comes very natural to them.

I don't know about John Kennedy but I remember Bobby giving the peace sign and saying "on to Chicago" and then he was dead.

I have always believed this event probably altered the course of my own life.

Was there a vast conspiracy? Well, I was a devout Christian for a long time and truly devout Christians believe there is a vast conspiracy of evil going on in the universe despite Ad Orientem's very logical conclusions.
I think one needs to be careful about assuming that the spiritual warfare that has been going on since the Fall implies all temporal crime (or sin) is a conspiracy.
Hmmm.....

"You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God."

You don't actually believe this? Sometimes men are just evil on their own?
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