Fred Reed Reflects on Veteran's Day

[Ad Orientem]

As I write, it is Veterans Day. Coincidentally last night, November tenth, the annual Marine Corps birthday party took place  at the Tratoria, a local Italian restaurant. I hadn´t gone before, not being much of a joiner, but went this time with Vi and Natalia. The assembled were nice people, well along in years, as am I. There were good food, patriotic speeches, and a birthday cake. We sang the Marine Corps Hymn, though “from the halls of Montezuma”? was perhaps not a high point of diplomatic appropriateness in Mexico.

A camaraderie exists among Marines, into which I fit oddly. It starts with boot camp at Parris Island or, for the Hollywood Marines, at the recruit depot in San Diego. Men remember it because it was hard, demanding, a rite of passage to manhood. I understand that boot has been watered down as the country moves toward the goal of a non-violent Marine Corps, but in the Sixties it hadn´t been. If you got through it, you had done something, and you knew it. Those who hadn´t were an inferior species. We remember it with fondness, and a bond.

And then for Marines there are the wars, which we always have. I don´t know why. For most at the Tratoria, it was I suppose Southeast Asia. We had talk of sacrifice and duty. There is a romance to war that has called to men since well before the days of Marcus Aurelius wintering on the Rhine-Danube line, when Rome, not America, was Rome. War is another bond.

Read the rest here...
http://www.fredoneverything.net/Vets.shtml

[ns2]

I bristle any time anyone wants to honor me for my "service" in Vietnam.

The amazing thing is how it happens everywhere - like just going to Sea World and while watching the Shamu show they ask all Veterans to stand up and be honored for their service to their country. And it's not even Veterans day.

There wasn't anything honorable about it. Fred knows it and so do I.

Just enjoy the f***ing Shamu show or the football game and leave us out of it why don't you?

[dualstow]

I get what you're saying, ns2, but I can't see that ever being phased out.
Maybe people just need to admit that they're doing that for themselves as much as for those who served.

[stuper1]

Agreed on the point about doing it for themselves.

Of course, today's military is a volunteer force, versus the drafted force in Vietnam.  People like me who never served do feel great appreciation for those who choose to serve for honorable reasons (no matter how dishonorable the whole scheme is), and also for those who didn't have a choice but served and suffered anyway.

[MediumTex]

I am only speculating here, but I have always thought that if i was one of those guys in a Cobra attack helicopter turning "enemies" or "insurgents" into piles of warm meat and watching the whole thing on a video screen like I was playing Halo, I don't know if I would ever want anyone to mention my "service" again after I got home and I really began to grasp what I had done.

I don't think people realize that there is a whole generation of Iraq and Afghanistan vets who are going to face a lifetime of really bad PTSD, from the ground troops who endured 24 hour stress caused by IEDs (and watching their buddies get blown apart by them) to the helicopter pilots who used their chain guns like a butcher uses a cleaver.

It doesn't take much clearing away of illusions to realize that today's U.S. military is basically a petrodollar mercenary force and a make-work program for the rural poor and urban disaffected.  Many of the guys fighting today will realize this later on when they get out and try to sort through everything they experienced and try to figure out why they did the things that they did.

[WildAboutHarry]

It doesn't take much clearing away of illusions to realize that today's U.S. military is basically a petrodollar mercenary force and a make-work program for the rural poor and urban disaffected.

I don't know what to say.  In a single sentence you trivialize the service of thousands of young men and women, characterize their service as "petrodollar mercenaries", and categorize them as "rural poor and urban disaffected".  I am astounded!

[MediumTex]

It doesn't take much clearing away of illusions to realize that today's U.S. military is basically a petrodollar mercenary force and a make-work program for the rural poor and urban disaffected.

I don't know what to say.  In a single sentence you trivialize the service of thousands of young men and women, characterize their service as "petrodollar mercenaries", and categorize them as "rural poor and urban disaffected".  I am astounded!

I am not trivializing it at all.  For those who were fortunate enough to stay out of combat, it was probably a great experience of getting job skills, learning discipline and seeing the world, but that's not really anything that needs a holiday to honor.

It's the people who actually experience combat in a modern military engagement that I'm talking about, and what I'm saying is that the things that happen in those environments are the most non-trivial things a person will ever experience, but in modern times most of these deployments are also completely pointless, unless you accept that the U.S. military has gone from protecting political rights such as freedom and liberty to protecting economic rights such as corporations' desire to develop mineral resources around the world.

That's what I'm saying.  There is nothing trivial about some 25 year old vet who is missing an eye and half of the nerve endings in his skull are shaken loose, and whose treatment plan consists of an American flag eye patch and a lifetime supply of Prozac along with an annual 15 minute consultation with a psychiatrist.  Honoring that guy one day a year seems sort of cruel to me.  It seems like we should be expressing outrage one day a year (or maybe more) at the people who caused that to happen to him in the first place by putting him in the middle of someone else's country as a member of an occupying force.

When applied to World War II vets, the logic of Veterans Day makes perfect sense.  We are honoring those people who defended our freedom and way of life against some really cruel and terrible people (though Stalin was also cruel and terrible and he was on our side). 

When, however, you apply the logic to post-WWII vets, you get the bizarre holiday equivalent of Ford Motor Company pushing for a holiday to celebrate the people who were burned up in fiery Pinto crashes, calling them "Heroes in the Cause of Ford" when they should actually be called "Victims of the Incompetent Engineers at Ford."

I personally have nothing but respect for anyone who can get through the bureaucracy and sheer stupidity of life in the military while also facing the potential of being shot at occasionally, but increasingly people in the corporate world are having these same experiences as well.

[WildAboutHarry]

When applied to World War II vets, the logic of Veterans Day makes perfect sense.  We are honoring those people who defended our freedom and way of life against some really cruel and terrible people (though Stalin was also cruel and terrible and he was on our side). 

A substantial portion of the WWII vets (at least 30-40%, maybe more) were not front-line combat troops.  All sacrificed their time, their normal lives, for the cause.  The service all these people provided our country is certainly worth a day, and I fail to see the difference between those veterans and the ones who recently served or are serving today.

One can certainly disagree with what our political leaders have done with our military, without equating the military to a jobs program for the rural poor or a daycare for disaffected urban youth.  And might some of those serving today be doing so in response to planes being flown into buildings, regardless of how well the politicians have handled that particular situation?

[MediumTex]

When applied to World War II vets, the logic of Veterans Day makes perfect sense.  We are honoring those people who defended our freedom and way of life against some really cruel and terrible people (though Stalin was also cruel and terrible and he was on our side). 

A substantial portion of the WWII vets (at least 30-40%, maybe more) were not front-line combat troops.  All sacrificed their time, their normal lives, for the cause.  The service all these people provided our country is certainly worth a day, and I fail to see the difference between those veterans and the ones who recently served or are serving today.

One can certainly disagree with what our political leaders have done with our military, without equating the military to a jobs program for the rural poor or a daycare for disaffected urban youth.  And might some of those serving today be doing so in response to planes being flown into buildings, regardless of how well the politicians have handled that particular situation?

I am happy to give a day to those who chose the military as a career path or as a jobs path.

My father and father-in-law are both retired military.  I don't have a problem of any kind with members of the military.  I just wish that the politicians respected the sacrifice of the members of the military as much as people like us do.  If they did, they wouldn't strand them in shitholes like Afghanistan chasing around illiterate peasants, most of whom don't know anything about the events on 9/11. 

(One of the most surprising things that I have read from troops who have served in Afghanistan is that when they ask people outside the cities why they think the U.S. military is in their country, most of them have no idea.)

I would say that if an American citizen were truly concerned about veterans, he would be writing his Congressman regularly asking what he was doing about the fact that there have been more deaths from suicide in the U.S. military since 9/11 than the number who died on 9/11. 

The question would also be hammered away at about why we are so upset about the 3,000 Americans killed on 9/11, but we seem much less outraged about the 3,500 Americans who have died in combat in Iraq since 2004 in a war that was based almost entirely on a set of lies that were told to the American people--no WMDs, no connection to Al Quaeda, etc.

Veterans Day almost seems like a weak excuse to wave the flag without having to do the more difficult tasks involved in really honoring our veterans.  That's JMHO, of course.

[Kshartle]

It doesn't take much clearing away of illusions to realize that today's U.S. military is basically a petrodollar mercenary force and a make-work program for the rural poor and urban disaffected.  Many of the guys fighting today will realize this later on when they get out and try to sort through everything they experienced and try to figure out why they did the things that they did.

+1

As someone who was in the Army from '99 - '03 I completely agree.

I never stand up for "recognition" and I'm sickened whenever people want to "honor" the troops. All this does is fill little boys heads with lies that they will be heros if they just sign up to be mercenaries for politicans.

Ohhh what the heck MT....have a +2 on me.

[ns2]

I never stand up for "recognition" and I'm sickened whenever people want to "honor" the troops. All this does is fill little boys heads with lies that they will be heros if they just sign up to be mercenaries for politicans.

I think that's kind of the whole point, isn't it? I read recently that the human mind isn't fully developed until around the age of 25 so they need to get the hero thing started as soon as possible before they start thinking for themselves. Oh, and it's not just little boys now but girls too. Remember the Jessica Lynch hero story which was totally fabricated by the Pentagon? Why do you suppose they do things like that?

And on the subject of WWII Vets I was watching a show on the Military Channel about the Normandy invasion with so many men being cut down before even making it to the beaches. The thing that was getting to me was that these young men didn't get to make the decision that their lives were worth sacrificing on those beaches for somebody else's benefit. Somebody else made that choice for them, setting less value on their lives as opposed to others. I'm sure some of them felt it was a worthy sacrifice but I wonder how many asked themselves what the hell am I doing here before running out into the gunfire.

[WildAboutHarry]

The thing that was getting to me was that these young men didn't get to make the decision that their lives were worth sacrificing on those beaches for somebody else's benefit. Somebody else made that choice for them, setting less value on their lives as opposed to others. I'm sure some of them felt it was a worthy sacrifice but I wonder how many asked themselves what the hell am I doing here before running out into the gunfire.

WT Sherman (of Atlanta fame), among others, said "War is Hell."  It is.  I don't have the figures, but a significant portion of our D-Day troops were conscripts.  Not so today.  Everyone is a volunteer.  And I am sure that the firemen who were killed in the World Trade Center also said "..what the hell am I doing here...".  Or maybe not.  They are also volunteers and perhaps some or most understood the risks of their chosen profession.

I never stand up for "recognition" and I'm sickened whenever people want to "honor" the troops.

I kind of agree (although 'sickened' is a bit beyond what I feel).  But it is better than spitting on the troops, characterizing them as "baby killers", etc.

Veterans Day almost seems like a weak excuse to wave the flag without having to do the more difficult tasks involved in really honoring our veterans.  That's JMHO, of course.

I agree that most holidays are pretty lame, the Fall/Winter ones being the exception.  Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years Day are pretty good.  The whole harvest, pagan, debauchery thing is a heady mix. 

I would prefer Veterans Day being a paid holiday only for Veterans.

[ns2]

I kind of agree (although 'sickened' is a bit beyond what I feel).  But it is better than spitting on the troops, characterizing them as "baby killers", etc.

The whole spitting on the returning troops and calling them baby killers thing is one of the many myths of the Vietnam war. Having made the return trip through Travis AFB I can assure you there were no protesters waiting to spit on us.

When you stop and think about it, it probably wouldn't be a very wise thing to spit on a bunch of soldiers just returning from killing babies.

[annieB]

Don't know about killing babies but all young men should go off to
the wars.Get scared to death,grow old and tell lies and "war stories".

[MediumTex]

I was listening to an old episode of "This American Life" about life on an American aircraft carrier.  It was really surprising to me to learn that these ships have a crew of over 5,000 supporting around 50 pilots who are actually flying missions.  That's a LOT of support.  That's a 100:1 ratio just on the ship.  If you think about the additional people back on shore that it takes to design, build and maintain the ship and the aircraft, that number probably goes to 200:1 or higher. 

One young sailor's jobs on the ship was to fill the snack machines onboard.  That's all she did.  That was her "mission"--filling snack machines.  Later in life, when people ask her about her service I wonder what she will say? 

Q: "So, what was it really like out there in the Indian Ocean, helping those brave pilots fight the evildoers in Afghanistan?  Were you ever scared?  Did you ever think you might not make it home?"

A: "Well, it wasn't really that big of a deal.  I just filled those snack machines every day.  Sometimes I would mix things up a little bit, but there was one thing we all knew not to do, and that was to go light on the Snickers bars.  That was a big no-no, and anyone who wanted to survive in our line of work learned that real quick.  That was probably the biggest danger that I encountered personally."

"War is Hell", as they say.

***

Another kind of funny thing I learned is that there is a "jam room" on board the ship where sailors can book time to play on Navy-provided guitars, drums and amplifiers.  Over the course of a cruise, several different "bands" will typically form, mostly with a heavy metal style.  Near the end of the cruise there will be a "battle of the bands" in the hangar below deck, with the crew members voting on the winners. 

I can't think of anything much cooler than if my employer were to provide a jam room for employees to play heavy metal before or after work, with a periodic battle of the bands hosted in the office.  I'll bet even Google doesn't do that for its employees.

[Jan Van]

...I don't think people realize that there is a whole generation of Iraq and Afghanistan vets who are going to face a lifetime of really bad PTSD...

And then you see a documentary about one such kid. Imagine this, he had trouble picking up the civilian life, got into fights, and ended up killing somebody. So now he'll spend a big part of his life in jail. Because he, obviously, is "bad"!

Maybe they should spend a bit more money on taking care of all these kids, after they come back. WTH do you expect from them when they return?

[MediumTex]

...I don't think people realize that there is a whole generation of Iraq and Afghanistan vets who are going to face a lifetime of really bad PTSD...

And then you see a documentary about one such kid. Imagine this, he had trouble picking up the civilian life, got into fights, and ended up killing somebody. So now he'll spend a big part of his life in jail. Because he, obviously, is "bad"!

Maybe they should spend a bit more money on taking care of all these kids, after they come back. WTH do you expect from them when they return?

At his sentencing, it would have been cool if he had said:

"Well your honor, members of the jury and everyone else who is here today, I just want you to know that if you don't like what I did to that dude I killed, you would have absolutely HATED what I did to those Iraqis.  We took Iraqi fathers, husbands, sons and brothers and turned them into bloody piles of meat and bone almost every day."

[ns2]

Maybe they should spend a bit more money on taking care of all these kids, after they come back. WTH do you expect from them when they return?

When you enlist in the military the very first thing they do is send you to boot camp to de-humanize you and if you can't cut it you can spend the rest of your life in a mental institution or put a bullet in your head as my best friend eventually did. I was a pallbearer at his funeral.

I had a dream the other night triggered by I don't know what but I had to go to a Marine boot camp even at my age (64) and it was completely terrifying until I saw that there were actually females present which I had totally forgotten about the modern military.

Surely they wouldn't de-humanize the ladies this way, would they?

Don't know because the dream didn't last long enough. I hope not.

[smurff]

***
Another kind of funny thing I learned is that there is a "jam room" on board the ship where sailors can book time to play on Navy-provided guitars, drums and amplifiers.  Over the course of a cruise, several different "bands" will typically form, mostly with a heavy metal style.  Near the end of the cruise there will be a "battle of the bands" in the hangar below deck, with the crew members voting on the winners. 

I can't think of anything much cooler than if my employer were to provide a jam room for employees to play heavy metal before or after work, with a periodic battle of the bands hosted in the office.  I'll bet even Google doesn't do that for its employees.

That sounds like more fun than doing Battlebots.