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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:46 am
by Mdraf
Kshartle wrote:
Mdraf wrote: As a society voters have shown that taxpayer redistribution is wanted (Medicare, Medicaid). The problem we are grappling with now is to how to re-distribute in the most efficient manner.
Good luck with all that.

I would refer anyone who hasn't to read Browne's book "Why Government Doesn't Work"
I would agree. But one has to be pragmatic.  Our society is not about to turn back. So we need to make lemonade with the lemons we have.

Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:51 am
by Kshartle
Mdraf wrote:
Kshartle wrote:
Mdraf wrote: As a society voters have shown that taxpayer redistribution is wanted (Medicare, Medicaid). The problem we are grappling with now is to how to re-distribute in the most efficient manner.
Good luck with all that.

I would refer anyone who hasn't to read Browne's book "Why Government Doesn't Work"
I would agree. But one has to be pragmatic.  Our society is not about to turn back. So we need to make lemonade with the lemons we have.
I'm afraid it's not lemonade but pee with some sugar poured in.

Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:42 am
by technovelist
Kshartle wrote:
technovelist wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: Another practical way to solve the problem Obamacare was trying to solve was to federalize the regulation of insurance and destroy all the ridiculous barriers to competition that the states have set up. With one giant nationwide market, I would expect prices to quickly plummet.
That would also help quite a bit. And amazingly enough, it would actually be Constitutional!
Which is probably why they haven't proposed it... well, that and the fact that it would actually help the problem, which is the opposite of what they want.
How about cancel all regulation and let the market regulate it? People will buy what they want. The best companies will be rewarded. You don't have to worry about bad insurance companies. No one will buy their insurance.

And without the regs the costs will plummet.

Does everyone here understand how free market competition works? It benefits the consumer far far more than the business. With fascism they just lobby the goverment to force you to buy their crappy products. That's what we have now.
Yes, that is correct. But my point was that the federal government actually has the authority under the Constitution to regulate interstate commerce, so all they have to do is to tell the states that they can't stop you from buying insurance from a company in another state, and competition will be greatly improved.

Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:48 am
by Kshartle
technovelist wrote:
Kshartle wrote:
technovelist wrote: That would also help quite a bit. And amazingly enough, it would actually be Constitutional!
Which is probably why they haven't proposed it... well, that and the fact that it would actually help the problem, which is the opposite of what they want.
How about cancel all regulation and let the market regulate it? People will buy what they want. The best companies will be rewarded. You don't have to worry about bad insurance companies. No one will buy their insurance.

And without the regs the costs will plummet.

Does everyone here understand how free market competition works? It benefits the consumer far far more than the business. With fascism they just lobby the goverment to force you to buy their crappy products. That's what we have now.
Yes, that is correct. But my point was that the federal government actually has the authority under the Constitution to regulate interstate commerce, so all they have to do is to tell the states that they can't stop you from buying insurance from a company in another state, and competition will be greatly improved.
How about buying from another country. International insurance.

Why should a company in another be prevented from offereing Americans insurance? They are manica control freaks these politicians.

Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:13 pm
by technovelist
Kshartle wrote:
technovelist wrote:
Kshartle wrote: How about cancel all regulation and let the market regulate it? People will buy what they want. The best companies will be rewarded. You don't have to worry about bad insurance companies. No one will buy their insurance.

And without the regs the costs will plummet.

Does everyone here understand how free market competition works? It benefits the consumer far far more than the business. With fascism they just lobby the goverment to force you to buy their crappy products. That's what we have now.
Yes, that is correct. But my point was that the federal government actually has the authority under the Constitution to regulate interstate commerce, so all they have to do is to tell the states that they can't stop you from buying insurance from a company in another state, and competition will be greatly improved.
How about buying from another country. International insurance.

Why should a company in another be prevented from offereing Americans insurance? They are manica control freaks these politicians.
I agree with you that there should be no regulation. However, short of that, all the federal government has to do is to bar the states from prohibiting interstate insurance purchases, and there would be a much better selection of plans.

Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:18 pm
by Pointedstick
Tech is right. We can dream all we want, but back in the real imperfect world we all live in, having the federal government take these steps is something that would actually incrementally help; it's even feasible given the political environment and the drive toward federalization and standardization; and *gasp* it's actually constitutional!

Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:51 pm
by Kshartle
Pointedstick wrote: Tech is right. We can dream all we want, but back in the real imperfect world we all live in, having the federal government take these steps is something that would actually incrementally help; it's even feasible given the political environment and the drive toward federalization and standardization; and *gasp* it's actually constitutional!
The point is when you speculate about what the government is going to do you're still dreaming. They don't care what you think. You won't affect what they do or have any influence. They're going to do whatever they were going to do regardless of what anyone here thinks, says or does.

It's all dreams anyway so I say why not dream of a real solution rather than crappy ones?

Since it's all dreams I always like to ask why people would choose bad ones?

The government is probably just as likely to stop interferring as it is to adopt anything dreamt up here....which is to say zero.

Unless someone here dreamt up Obamacare. :)

Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:01 pm
by Pointedstick
Which dream seems more realistic?

"I think that the government should abolish gravity."

"I think that taxes on middle-class people should go down 1% next year."

By dismissing anything to do with government reforms as an unrealistic fantasy, you rob yourself of the ability to be part of realistic, doable, incremental change. I don't know if you're too familiar with gun laws in this country, but they've been getting better for 30 years because of the hard work and realistic, incremental goals of reformers. If 30 years ago they had said, "government is coercion! Abolish all gun laws!" gun ownership in America would be a footnote of history. Because they started small and worked their way up to big wins, today we have five states where you can carry a pistol without permission from the government and 36 where permission is very easy to attain. It may not be perfect, but the trajectory is positive because of realism, not idealism.

Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:06 pm
by Kshartle
Pointedstick wrote: Which dream seems more realistic?

"I think that the government should abolish gravity."

"I think that taxes on middle-class people should go down 1% next year."

By dismissing anything to do with government reforms as an unrealistic fantasy, you rob yourself of the ability to be part of realistic, doable, incremental change. I don't know if you're too familiar with gun laws in this country, but they've been getting better for 30 years because of the hard work and realistic, incremental goals of reformers. If 30 years ago they had said, "government is coercion! Abolish all gun laws!" gun ownership in America would be a footnote of history. Because they started small and worked their way up to big wins, today we have five states where you can carry a pistol without permission from the government and 36 where permission is very easy to attain. It may not be perfect, but the trajectory is positive because of realism, not idealism.
Point well taken.

Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:12 pm
by Pointedstick
Thanks!

That said, I basically agree with you that government doesn't care about what you want; it's going to do what it's going to do… but not always. In a gross, lumbering, inefficient manner, representative governments need to be responsive to the desires of their subjects. Politics is a team sport, but a team is made up of its members. Movements are often started by small groups of passionate, engaged, connected people, and once a movement takes off, becoming part of it can help to usher in the changes you want to see.

But you just have to be realistic and pick your battles. Gun rights in California, for example, are doomed simply because of lack of numbers. There aren't enough people to outweigh moderate anti-gun sentiment and far-left politicians. In Texas and Idaho, it's different. Context is everything.

Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:27 pm
by Kshartle
Pointedstick wrote: Thanks!

That said, I basically agree with you that government doesn't care about what you want; it's going to do what it's going to do… but not always. In a gross, lumbering, inefficient manner, representative governments need to be responsive to the desires of their subjects. Politics is a team sport, but a team is made up of its members. Movements are often started by small groups of passionate, engaged, connected people, and once a movement takes off, becoming part of it can help to usher in the changes you want to see.

But you just have to be realistic and pick your battles. Gun rights in California, for example, are doomed simply because of lack of numbers. There aren't enough people to outweigh moderate anti-gun sentiment and far-left politicians. In Texas and Idaho, it's different. Context is everything.
Yes I'm not a crusader, I don't think it's worth the effort but if everyone else wants to lobby for more freedom.....please go right ahead. If you can really get some freedom going, I might even move there. Has to be warm though.

Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:32 pm
by Pointedstick
Kshartle wrote:Has to be warm though.
I think this is the kiss of death. Weather that's too good encourages too much in-migration. Exhibit A: California. I think there's a reason that the states that tend to be more libertarian are hotter or colder than average (New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, the Dakotas, Texas, Florida, Nevada, Arizona…).