How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

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Do you agree with MT/MR advocates on how money and debt work?

Poll runs till Fri Jul 06, 2057 4:03 am

I agree
14
41%
I disagree
8
24%
I don't know and I don't care
12
35%
 
Total votes: 34
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:11 pm

If we agree, we agree. Let's be happy with that and move on to something that relies on that agreement, not start a new argument about whether or not we really agree.
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:24 pm

Pointedstick wrote: If we agree, we agree. Let's be happy with that and move on to something that relies on that agreement, not start a new argument about whether or not we really agree.
Here's a question that has been bugging me:

Let's say you're an Austrian (and I'm not saying anyone here is one) and you think that a tiny government is what society needs.

Even with that tiny government, however, there will be fluctuations in its size.

If we assume that the government in this scenario has the ability to manipulate the ebb and flow of its spending to some degree (within the framework of it being tiny), should the government expand its spending during periods when the private sector is in recession or should it completely ignore what is happening in the private sector and just expand and contract its spending based upon the needs of the Defense Department, the courts, the agency that strikes the pure gold and silver coins, and whatever other strictly limited functions this government performs?
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Mdraf » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:30 pm

MediumTex wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: If we agree, we agree. Let's be happy with that and move on to something that relies on that agreement, not start a new argument about whether or not we really agree.
Here's a question that has been bugging me:

Let's say you're an Austrian (and I'm not saying anyone here is one) and you think that a tiny government is what society needs.

Even with that tiny government, however, there will be fluctuations in its size.

If we assume that the government in this scenario has the ability to manipulate the ebb and flow of its spending to some degree (within the framework of it being tiny), should the government expand its spending during periods when the private sector is in recession or should it completely ignore what is happening in the private sector and just expand and contract its spending based upon the needs of the Defense Department, the courts, the agency that strikes the pure gold and silver coins, and whatever other strictly limited functions this government performs?
The latter
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:37 pm

Mdraf wrote:
MediumTex wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: If we agree, we agree. Let's be happy with that and move on to something that relies on that agreement, not start a new argument about whether or not we really agree.
Here's a question that has been bugging me:

Let's say you're an Austrian (and I'm not saying anyone here is one) and you think that a tiny government is what society needs.

Even with that tiny government, however, there will be fluctuations in its size.

If we assume that the government in this scenario has the ability to manipulate the ebb and flow of its spending to some degree (within the framework of it being tiny), should the government expand its spending during periods when the private sector is in recession or should it completely ignore what is happening in the private sector and just expand and contract its spending based upon the needs of the Defense Department, the courts, the agency that strikes the pure gold and silver coins, and whatever other strictly limited functions this government performs?
The latter
So you think that even if the government could provide a bit more demand for what the economy was producing within the confines of it being tiny and limited, it shouldn't?

For example, if I'm the government and I could buy a new gold coin press today or next year and it made no difference either way, but the economy happened to be in a slump today, should that private sector slump have ANY effect on my decision making process of when to buy the gold coin press?
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Mdraf » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:41 pm

MediumTex wrote:
Mdraf wrote:
MediumTex wrote: Here's a question that has been bugging me:

Let's say you're an Austrian (and I'm not saying anyone here is one) and you think that a tiny government is what society needs.

Even with that tiny government, however, there will be fluctuations in its size.

If we assume that the government in this scenario has the ability to manipulate the ebb and flow of its spending to some degree (within the framework of it being tiny), should the government expand its spending during periods when the private sector is in recession or should it completely ignore what is happening in the private sector and just expand and contract its spending based upon the needs of the Defense Department, the courts, the agency that strikes the pure gold and silver coins, and whatever other strictly limited functions this government performs?
The latter
So you think that even if the government could provide a bit more demand for what the economy was producing within the confines of it being tiny and limited, it shouldn't?

For example, if I'm the government and I could buy a new gold coin press today or next year and it made no difference either way, but the economy happened to be in a slump today, should that private sector slump have ANY effect on my decision making process of when to buy the gold coin press?
If such a press were needed somebody would buy or make one. The government has (a) no ability to determine what the free market needs and  (b) has no business spending somebody else's hard earned money on what it thinks will "do good".
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:49 pm

Mdraf wrote: If such a press were needed somebody would buy or make one. The government has (a) no ability to determine what the free market needs and  (b) has no business spending somebody else's hard earned money on what it thinks will "do good".
And zat is de truth!!!

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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Kshartle » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:17 pm

Gumby wrote:
Kshartle wrote:I have changed nothing. Nada. I understnad perfectly where dollars come from, what they represent and fractional reserve banking. My BS is in Finance with a minor in Accounting and MBA is Forensic Accounting & Taxation.

I understand these concepts perfectly, not that degrees prove this. The content of my writing proves it.

We are disagreeing on something else entirely.
Gotta say I find this all hard to believe. A few days ago you you said you never heard of these concepts and were trying to convince us that M0 represents our nation's purchasing power and most of us (as well as Wikipedia and virtually all economists) vehemently disagreed with that assertion.
That's fine Gumby, I never clicked on the link. I've never said what you've atributed (I bolded it.) and the fractional reserve, bank creating money stuff is so basic that I don't reference it in everything I write. I take it as a given that you guys know it like anyone else I would seriously engage in any of this stuff.

I don't even believe in the concept of a nation.  It's another dragon or forest so "nation's purchasing power" does not exist. The dollar is a different story however.......
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Kshartle » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:23 pm

Pointedstick wrote: If we agree, we agree. Let's be happy with that and move on to something that relies on that agreement, not start a new argument about whether or not we really agree.
PS you should change to PM. The PeaceMaker. Blessed be the peacemaker.

Let's not start that disagreement. That would be boring. Let's agree on basics. Then we can disagree on big stuff. Reason and logic will prove who is right....no shame. I could be the dumbest and wrongest of all. Will I be better off if you guys prove me wrong and teach me? Yes. Will my ego be hurt? Not One Bit. I don't care what you think I want to learn. Teach me please.
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:28 pm

Kshartle wrote: PS you should change to PM. The PeaceMaker. Blessed be the peacemaker.
This is my peacemaker:

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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:36 pm

Okay… anyway, since we're all in agreement that the money supply is created jointly by the government and banks, let's discuss QE and whether or not it's inflationary.

Let's see if I have the arguments down:

Perspective #1: QE is inflationary because it swaps a non-cash asset for cash in the banking sector, resulting in more money being available. Bonds are not sufficiently "cash-like" despite the existence of a highly liquid secondary market because that secondary market itself only exists so long as there is enough cash and demand, which are never guaranteed. My house would not be cash-like if we lived in a hypothetical world where I could transfer ownership of it in a highly liquid secondary market over the internet in five minutes because it would remain a house.

Perspective #2: QE is not inflationary in the real economy because the banks don't spend the new cash into the real economy (with the exception of real estate); they purchase financial assets in the financial economy and so create inflation there. It is important to look at these two economies separately, since "inflation" is a bad thing in the real economy because prices of useful goods that we need are rising, but in the financial economy, we actually WANT inflation in the prices of assets that we own! That's how our investments grow.

I believe #2 myself.
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:45 pm

Pointedstick wrote: Okay… anyway, since we're all in agreement that the money supply is created jointly by the government and banks, let's discuss QE and whether or not it's inflationary.

Let's see if I have the arguments down:

Perspective #1: QE is inflationary because it swaps a non-cash asset for cash in the banking sector, resulting in more money being available. Bonds are not sufficiently "cash-like" despite the existence of a highly liquid secondary market because that secondary market itself only exists so long as there is enough cash and demand, which are never guaranteed. My house would not be cash-like if we lived in a hypothetical world where I could transfer ownership of it in a highly liquid secondary market over the internet in five minutes because it would remain a house.

Perspective #2: QE is not inflationary in the real economy because the banks don't spend the new cash into the real economy (with the exception of real estate); they purchase financial assets in the financial economy and so create inflation there. It is important to look at these two economies separately, since "inflation" is a bad thing in the real economy because prices of useful goods that we need are rising, but in the financial economy, we actually WANT inflation in the prices of assets that we own! That's how our investments grow.

I believe #2 myself.
So am I understanding that you actually believe that if the numbers on your statements are higher, you are richer? If so, you should keep your accounts in Argentinean pesos or whatever the currency is that is devaluing the fastest.

For my part, I want to see an increase in my purchasing power. Bigger numbers in a devaluing currency don't make me richer.
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Kshartle » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:48 pm

MediumTex wrote: For example, if I'm the government and I could buy a new gold coin press today or next year and it made no difference either way, but the economy happened to be in a slump today, should that private sector slump have ANY effect on my decision making process of when to buy the gold coin press?
MT...........man.......there is no such thing as a gold coin press. There cannot be until we can replicate everything like Star Trek.....this is so vital.....

You guys...you are smart guys......you would not be on this forum if you were not smart guys.......you know you can't get something from nothing. You know that printing peices of paper doesn't create wealth. You know it can't make everyone richer than they are already. If it makes anyone richer it HAS TO BE at the expense of someone else. You guys are too smart to not know this. You are. I am certain. If you use strawmen and other crap it's emotional not logical defense.

If humans aren't doing something (building a bridge) it's because building that bridge is a mother FU@#$%@#$^%$^cking waste of resources. If the government ORDERS it it's a waste of FU@#$%@#$^%$^cking resources. We are poorer now thanks to the government. The way you know this is true or not is you examine if there is force being exerted. People want what they pay for voluntarily. They DESIRE it. They WANT it.

We don't want stuff that sucks. That stuff comes from the threat of violence. You guys want to separate the two but they are intertwined and there is no separating!!!!!! Better is subjective. How do you measure it?!?!?!? What do people want? They will ALREADY FVUKKKKING buy what they want. no need to bother. If there's less money ok. That sucks. Prices have changed...downward. This sucks. Plans have been screwed up. Business plans. But no one is able to be in control of our most precious possession.....money. Money touches everything. If this is political so be it.

Money is what makes the world go round. We should agree on its value not with guns,  we should pick something that's value can't change by several % a day.l (if you think gold really changes it's value like this that is another discussion entirely).

We cannot have a rationale market until we have sound money and we can't have that until we agree that money shouldn't just be slips of paper counterfeited at will by a group of psychos that does whatever makes their own lives better and their friends and causes wars and death and horror.

The two concepts are intertwined.
Last edited by Kshartle on Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:53 pm

Libertarian666 wrote: So am I understanding that you actually believe that if the numbers on your statements are higher, you are richer? If so, you should keep your accounts in Argentinean pesos or whatever the currency is that is devaluing the fastest.

For my part, I want to see an increase in my purchasing power. Bigger numbers in a devaluing currency don't make me richer.
I want my purchasing power to rise as well. And therefore I want asset price inflation to be higher than inflation of useful goods and services. That's how my investments make me a real return. From perspective #2, QE has actually been good for all of us--at least for the last few years--since it's pumped up asset prices, which have risen significantly faster then inflation in the real economy. I mean, stocks have been up like 15% a year! Gold has had several smashing years as well. Bonds have been more mixed, with several great years and several terrible ones, but that actually benefits PP holders.

But the point is that people who have invested in these assets have handily beaten the meager inflation of the past half decade, and this goes for if you believe CPI or even if you think it's more like 5 or 6%. And I think QE been a large part of the financial markets doing well despite the shaky real economy. I mean, every time the Fed announces more QE the markets for these assets have a field day.

Now, you can say that this is a bubble that will eventually need to pop and I would agree with you. But when is it going to pop? I have no idea. I would rather take these profits while I can.
Last edited by Pointedstick on Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:59 pm

Kshartle wrote:
MediumTex wrote: For example, if I'm the government and I could buy a new gold coin press today or next year and it made no difference either way, but the economy happened to be in a slump today, should that private sector slump have ANY effect on my decision making process of when to buy the gold coin press?
MT...........man.......there is no such thing as a gold coin press. There cannot be until we can replicate everything like Star Trek.....this is so vital.....
I think he was talking about something like this:

Image
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:03 pm

Kshartle wrote:
MediumTex wrote: For example, if I'm the government and I could buy a new gold coin press today or next year and it made no difference either way, but the economy happened to be in a slump today, should that private sector slump have ANY effect on my decision making process of when to buy the gold coin press?
MT...........man.......there is no such thing as a gold coin press. There cannot be until we can replicate everything like Star Trek.....this is so vital.....

You guys...you are smart guys......you would not be on this forum if you were not smart guys.......you know you can't get something from nothing. You know that printing peices of paper doesn't create wealth. You know it can't make everyone richer then. If it makes anyone richer it HAS TO BE at the expense of someone else. You guys are too smart to not know this. You are. I am certain. If you use strawmen and other crap it's emotional not logical defense.

If humans aren't doing something (building a bridge) it's because building that bridge is a mother FU@#$%@#$^%$^cking waste of resources. If the government ORDERS it it's a waste of FU@#$%@#$^%$^cking resources. We are poorer now thanks to the government. The way you know this is true or not is you examine if there is force being exerted. People want what pay for voluntarily. They DESIRE it. They WANT it.

We don't want stuff that sucks. That stuff comes from the threat of violence. You guys want to separate the two but they are intertwined and there is no separating!!!!!! Better is subjective. How do you measure it?!?!?!? What do people want? They will ALREADY FVUKKKKING buy what they want. no need to bother. If there's less money ok. That sucks. Prices have changed...downward. This sucks. Plans have been screwed up. Business plans. But no one is able to be in control of our most precious possession.....money. Money touches everything. If this is political so be it.

Money is what makes the world go round. We should agree on its value not with guns,  we should pick something that's value can't change by several % a day.l (if you think gold really changes it's value like this that is another discussion entirely).

We cannot have a rationale market until we have sound money and we can't have that until we agree that money shouldn't just be slips of paper counterfeited at will by a group of psychos that does whatever makes their own live better and their friends and causes wars and death and horror.

The two concepts are intertwined.
I've made the same arguments you are making many times.

There is just that part of me that sees what happens when a wave of debt defaults begin to occur followed by a collapse in demand, followed by a reluctance of banks to loan money, followed by an increase in unemployment, followed by entrepreneurs putting new projects and hiring on hold...

...and I wonder if there might not be some role for the government in helping to arrest this process, even if it does mean that prices won't be allowed to fall to the level they would need to fall for the economy to begin functioning again.

It's probably that same part of me that wouldn't enjoy watching a wolf eat Bambi.

Maybe what I am really saying is that I would rather have a job and have prices remain stable than to lose my job because demand across the whole economy was falling off a cliff while everyone waited for the price of everything to go down by 50-75% (which might not mean that much to me and millions of other people if none of us had jobs).

That's sort of what I was thinking in 2008 when the enormity of what was happening began to dawn on me--i.e., I began to realize that a true deflationary spiral doesn't necessarily have any logical ending point as long as there is even one dollar of outstanding private sector debt. 

By the logic of "market clearing" we are potentially talking about every single private sector debt in the entire economy defaulting, which might do far more psychological damage to the majority of consumers than any possible benefit that could come from the "market clearing" exercise.
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:06 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Kshartle wrote:
MediumTex wrote: For example, if I'm the government and I could buy a new gold coin press today or next year and it made no difference either way, but the economy happened to be in a slump today, should that private sector slump have ANY effect on my decision making process of when to buy the gold coin press?
MT...........man.......there is no such thing as a gold coin press. There cannot be until we can replicate everything like Star Trek.....this is so vital.....
I think he was talking about something like this:

Image
Yes.  I didn't mean the modern equivalent of something like this:

Image
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Mdraf » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:08 pm

MediumTex wrote: There is just that part of me that sees what happens when a wave of debt defaults begin to occur ...<snip for brevity>
If government had not interfered with market forces in the first place these huge bubbles would have popped on their own before becoming a threat and setting off the chain of events you describe
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Kshartle » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:09 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Kshartle wrote:
MediumTex wrote: For example, if I'm the government and I could buy a new gold coin press today or next year and it made no difference either way, but the economy happened to be in a slump today, should that private sector slump have ANY effect on my decision making process of when to buy the gold coin press?
MT...........man.......there is no such thing as a gold coin press. There cannot be until we can replicate everything like Star Trek.....this is so vital.....
I think he was talking about something like this:

Image
OK.....look I said I was going out for belgian beers.

I am struggling. But guys......you can't get someting for nothing.

Think about it.....Human print peices of paper and GUNS assign them value. This is pure theft. Theft CANNOT be what we want.
What we want is always voluntary. Thest is want we don't want. It makes us poorer.

QE is theft. You know it if you just let yourself see the obvious. It makes us pooer. That means QE hurts the economy. Therefore QE begets more QE if the masters perscribe more QE for a bad economy. They are promising that. The government cannot withstand the correction that is coming UNLESS the population is willing to give up everything. They are not...yet
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:13 pm

Mdraf wrote:
MediumTex wrote: There is just that part of me that sees what happens when a wave of debt defaults begin to occur ...<snip for brevity>
If government had not interfered with market forces in the first place these huge bubbles would have popped on their own before becoming a threat and setting off the chain of events you describe
I'm familiar with that narrative.  I've argued that position many times.

The thing is, though, speculative bubbles predate the Fed.  They've been happening for hundreds of years.  I don't think you can ever get rid of them no matter how you manage monetary policy.
Last edited by MediumTex on Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:14 pm

Kshartle wrote: Think about it.....Human print peices of paper and GUNS assign them value. This is pure theft. Theft CANNOT be what we want.
But what if it is? What if deep in the human breast lies the desire to take from others what is theirs, to burn their homes, to cleave their heads and stamp on their smashed bodies? What if our inherent flaws lead us to create institutions that embody our worst traits, and that we cannot conceive of destroying these institutions so long as we still harbor the spark of violence, of greed, of hate?
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:17 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Kshartle wrote: Think about it.....Human print peices of paper and GUNS assign them value. This is pure theft. Theft CANNOT be what we want.
But what if it is? What if deep in the human breast lies the desire to take from others what is theirs, to burn their homes, to cleave their heads and stamp on their smashed bodies? What if our inherent flaws lead us to create institutions that embody our worst traits, and that we cannot conceive of destroying these institutions so long as we still harbor the spark of violence, of greed, of hate?
Which is an outstanding argument for doing as Harry Browne suggested and rather than spending your energy trying to change the system, instead spend your energy trying to build a life as insulated from the effects of the system as you can.
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Mdraf » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:19 pm

MediumTex wrote:
Mdraf wrote:
MediumTex wrote: There is just that part of me that sees what happens when a wave of debt defaults begin to occur ...<snip for brevity>
If government had not interfered with market forces in the first place these huge bubbles would have popped on their own before becoming a threat and setting off the chain of events you describe
I'm familiar with that narrative.  I've argued that position many times.

The thing is, though, speculative bubbles predate the Fed.  They've been happening for hundreds of years.  I don't think you can every get rid of them no matter how you manage monetary policy.
That's true but you must admit that both Greenspan and Bernanke fed all these bubbles in the last few years. They're coming  fast and furious with this easy money that has nowhere productive to go.  We just keep going from one bubble to the next.
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:24 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Kshartle wrote: Think about it.....Human print peices of paper and GUNS assign them value. This is pure theft. Theft CANNOT be what we want.
But what if it is? What if deep in the human breast lies the desire to take from others what is theirs, to burn their homes, to cleave their heads and stamp on their smashed bodies? What if our inherent flaws lead us to create institutions that embody our worst traits, and that we cannot conceive of destroying these institutions so long as we still harbor the spark of violence, of greed, of hate?
If that is true, then the worst possible "solution" is to give moral sanction to certain people to rule others. Who will want to do that? With overwhelming probability, it will be the most morally depraved of all.

As James Madison said:

“If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions.”?

Unfortunately we now know that it is impossible to oblige government to do anything, so that approach won't work either.
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:30 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
Kshartle wrote: Think about it.....Human print peices of paper and GUNS assign them value. This is pure theft. Theft CANNOT be what we want.
But what if it is? What if deep in the human breast lies the desire to take from others what is theirs, to burn their homes, to cleave their heads and stamp on their smashed bodies? What if our inherent flaws lead us to create institutions that embody our worst traits, and that we cannot conceive of destroying these institutions so long as we still harbor the spark of violence, of greed, of hate?
If that is true, then the worst possible "solution" is to give moral sanction to certain people to rule others. Who will want to do that? With overwhelming probability, it will be the most morally depraved of all.

As James Madison said:

“If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions.”?

Unfortunately we now know that it is impossible to oblige government to do anything, so that approach won't work either.
The only solution would probably be to create a government from scratch with an elaborate series of checks and balances within the central government, along with many limits on the central government in the form of powers reserved to the states.

Something like that might work...for a while.

I'll bet the first area of friction, though, would be when some of the states tried to enforce their reserved powers against the central government.  Something tells me that the central government would punish such states severely to teach them a lesson and discourage others from challenging it in a similar way going forward.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
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Re: How many people agree with MR/MT theory described on the forum

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:31 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
Kshartle wrote: Think about it.....Human print peices of paper and GUNS assign them value. This is pure theft. Theft CANNOT be what we want.
But what if it is? What if deep in the human breast lies the desire to take from others what is theirs, to burn their homes, to cleave their heads and stamp on their smashed bodies? What if our inherent flaws lead us to create institutions that embody our worst traits, and that we cannot conceive of destroying these institutions so long as we still harbor the spark of violence, of greed, of hate?
If that is true, then the worst possible "solution" is to give moral sanction to certain people to rule others. Who will want to do that? With overwhelming probability, it will be the most morally depraved of all.
Of course it is; I agree completely with you. What I'm saying is that I think it may be inevitable so long as we humans remain flawed, violent, covetous, hateful, lazy beings. As individuals we must work to overcome our propensities toward these negative traits, but we cannot change our neighbors or countrymen and it is the combination of all of us in the aggregate that determines the character of the societies we live in and the governments that rule us. Rising above the average--as probably everyone here has--merely exposes how low the average truly is and how far each of us personally still has to go. In my opinion, libertarianism is one of the steps on the path to becoming above average, but it isn't the end, since libertarianism can make you depressed because the ideology's solution will never be implemented. It is an ideology that requires that the average be lifted in order to succeed--an ironically collectivist requirement given the focus on individualism.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
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