Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:15 pm

So I just received my earthing mat.

After watching videos and reading about it, I actually think that the best mat placement for me is under my computer keyboard and mouse.  This puts my hands in contact with it more or less continuously for hours each day, while using my feet on the mat requires me to take off my shoes and socks.

I also would expect the mat to wear out a lot sooner on the ground with feet on it than on a desktop with only hands and arms on it.

It's a really interesting concept and for me it's easily worth $59 to check it out and see what my personal experience is.  I've certainly spent $59 on far less stimulating/interesting/entertaining things.

For the $59 I also got a plug tester, which is useful whether earthing works or not, and I got the earthing book, which is apparently a pretty good book and I am looking forward to reading it.
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by Gumby » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:07 am

I started using mine again and I have worked up to three hours with only a little bit of nausea, at first.
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by AgAuMoney » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:13 pm

MediumTex wrote: So I just received my earthing mat.
What size did you get?

Did you buy the one from the "Earthing" site discussed earlier?
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by Gumby » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:12 pm

In the Earthing book, there was a paragraph warning anyone on any medications — particularly thyroid meds or blood pressure meds — to proceed slowly. The idea is that the Earthing improves blood flow and bioavailability of medications. So, in a sense it increases the effect of a medication you might be on and also increases the likelihood of side effects from those medications. I can attest to this phenomenon in two ways:

The first was that I was taking anti-fungal herbs and Earthing gave me the same Herxheimer reaction that I got when taking too much of those herbs as I was originally titrating up my dose and tolerance to it. I'm no longer on those herbs and I no longer have that Herx reaction to Earthing.

The second was that I started getting a little insomnia from the Earthing mat. Few people ever get insomnia from Earthing, since it tends to normalize cortisol and reset the circadian rhythm. Turns out that the caffeine in the dark chocolate I was eating close to bedtime was what was keeping me from falling asleep. Chocolate has been known to keep people awake. Normally chocolate doesn't affect me, but Earthing seems to have increased its effectiveness in my body. When I stopped eating the chocolate, I slept much better — even though I never had much of a problem with it before.

So, it's worth being mindful of foods and meds if you have any negative reactions to Earthing. And it's believed that some negative reactions to Earthing can be from general detoxing or even bad grounding. For me, the negative effects have subsided at 3-4 hours/day and I'm starting to feel general benefits (more energy, less joint pain, younger looking skin). I should be able to tolerate an overnight soon, but I need to find time to get another rod in place for the bedroom (as I don't trust the house/electrical wiring approach).
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by Gumby » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:31 pm

For those who believe this is a placebo effect, I'm no longer bothered by that suggestion. It turns out that every medication or therapy has a placebo effect embedded in it. For instance, if you believe that a pharmaceutical or therapy will help you, it's chance of success is improved. If you disbelieve in that pharmaceutical or therapy, it's chance of success is diminished. If you believe that a pharmaceutical or therapy is very powerful, it's chances of causing a side-effect or reaction is increased. If you believe that a pharmaceutical or therapy is very weak, it's chance of causing a side-effect or reaction is decreased.

The mind plays a critical role in how you respond to any medication or therapy. In fact, someone has recently created a virtual placebo app that tries to harness that placebo healing power. The creator says that there is research to suggest that your brain can use a placebo to heal your body even if you aren't being deceived by the placebo:

http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/14/43298 ... ebo-effect

In other words, embrace the placebo effect, in a positive way, and you'll get more mileage from therapies, meds, etc.

Double-blind studies that are done in an attempt to remove a placebo effect are very helpful to determining the power of those therapies and pharmaceuticals, and Earthing has shown some very interesting results in Double-blind studies.

Nevertheless, when most people are Earthing — whether they are on a beach, in a forrest or on an Earthing mat — they are experiencing a placebo effect. Having your feet on the beach makes people feel good. It just does. And when you do something that feels good, it can reinforce a healing response.

But, what is interesting with the Earthing products is that you can feel a difference in your body after a few hours of using them. You can measure the grounding effect instantly in your body with a multimeter, but after a few hours on the mat, you can also usually tell if your mat is accidentally unplugged or not. It's pretty weird. You can feel a difference, but it's hard to describe.
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by MediumTex » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:03 am

AgAuMoney wrote:
MediumTex wrote: So I just received my earthing mat.
What size did you get?

Did you buy the one from the "Earthing" site discussed earlier?
It's about 10" x 27" or so.

I got it on Amazon, but it's also on the Earthing website.

I have a multimeter and it's kind of cool to watch your body's voltage go to zero when you touch the mat and then back up to anywhere from .5 - 2 volts when you stop touching the mat.

The Earthing book that comes with the mat is really good as well.  Whether you believe that there is anything to earthing or not, the authors of the book lay out their case for it pretty clearly.
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by hoost » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:49 pm

MT,

How are you measuring your body's voltage drop?  Where are you placing the multimeter?  Just wondering, because out of curiosity I tried this at lunch and didn't notice a voltage drop holding one end of the multimeter in my bare hand and the other inserted into both the ground and the negative of the outlet at home (I verified 120VAC drop between terminals).  I was hoping to reproduce your results.  I did see a voltage difference between my left and right hands of about 0.2V, which I found interesting. 
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by MediumTex » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:43 pm

hoost wrote: MT,

How are you measuring your body's voltage drop?  Where are you placing the multimeter?  Just wondering, because out of curiosity I tried this at lunch and didn't notice a voltage drop holding one end of the multimeter in my bare hand and the other inserted into both the ground and the negative of the outlet at home (I verified 120VAC drop between terminals).  I was hoping to reproduce your results.  I did see a voltage difference between my left and right hands of about 0.2V, which I found interesting.
Try putting the probe between your toes.  That seems to be a good spot.
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by MediumTex » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:04 pm

WildAboutHarry wrote: If there is something to grounding, I would think that electronics workers who are tethered to grounding straps all day would be the happiest, healthiest people on earth.
Wouldn't it depend on what they were grounded to?

If they are just clipped onto the metal chassis of a computer housing, it seems like that might not get you the same benefits as if your were clipped onto a ground rod.

I thought about grounding straps as well as this discussion has progressed.

Who knows, though, maybe these electronics workers ARE receiving some of the benefits of grounding.
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by Gumby » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:00 pm

WildAboutHarry wrote: If there is something to grounding, I would think that electronics workers who are tethered to grounding straps all day would be the happiest, healthiest people on earth.
Nope. Grounding devices and anti-static devices are not the same thing...
Earthing.com wrote:The difference between grounding and static discharge is that grounding instantly equalizes your body at Earth’s potential. Static discharge, generally called a soft ground or a dissipative ground, has an inline 1 meg ohm resistor in the ground cord which is design to slowly bleed off static electrical charges (contact and separation charges). These charges are created on the body by clothing and shoes whenever you move your clothing with arm movement or walk or sit on any synthetic material. The ESD industry uses dissipative grounding to prevent a rapid discharge of static electricity that might otherwise blow an electronic circuit or sensitive chip.

Source: http://www.earthing.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1832#a7
Also, I doubt there is anything "happy" about working in factory conditions. :)
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:22 pm

Here's a data point for all of the Earthing enthusiasts.

My 75 year old mom just called me up to ask what I thought about her investing in an Earthing franchise in Palm Desert CA.

I took a deep breath and stayed calm.  I told her to not write any checks immediately, but to go and visit some nearby franchises and see what she thinks.  My mom is a smart woman.  I'm sincerely curious as to what she comes up with.

For the record, I'm the guy that has been walking barefoot for 50 years.  I think "Earthing" is the same as selling "fresh air" to to nitwits.  More power to you if you can sell it...

My mom story reminds me of Craig's pornographer real estate story.  Just sayin'.

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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by Gumby » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:47 pm

For what it's worth, I don't think it's a great company. From what I've heard they have terrible customer service. Their sheets only last a few months before the silver threads lose conductivity and you're sore out of luck when that happens. So, I agree with your perspective and I wouldn't write any checks whatsoever. Having said that, I do like my Earthing mat...until it breaks.
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by AgAuMoney » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:35 pm

Gumby wrote: Nope. Grounding devices and anti-static devices are not the same thing...
Earthing.com wrote:The difference between grounding and static discharge is that grounding instantly equalizes your body at Earth’s potential. Static discharge, generally called a soft ground or a dissipative ground, has an inline 1 meg ohm resistor in the ground cord which is design to slowly bleed off static electrical charges (contact and separation charges). These charges are created on the body by clothing and shoes whenever you move your clothing with arm movement or walk or sit on any synthetic material. The ESD industry uses dissipative grounding to prevent a rapid discharge of static electricity that might otherwise blow an electronic circuit or sensitive chip.

Source: http://www.earthing.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1832#a7
That quote from earthing.com is nonsense.

The only accurate concepts are:
[an ESD protective device] has an inline 1 meg ohm resistor in the ground cord
and
These charges are created on the body by clothing and shoes whenever you move your clothing with arm movement or walk or sit
The rest is crap stuffed full of weasel words to lead you to think there is some difference.

The 1meg is for SAFETY.  It creates a high-impedance path to ground in order to prevent catastrophic current flow should the grounded person come into contact with a supply capable of sourcing large amounts of current.  Your static charge cannot source a large current and the resistor will make NO difference in the amount of time it takes to discharge that static electricity or "ground" your body voltage.

ESD grounding PREVENTS the build up of a static charge or instantly dissipates it when you first connect up.  The instant discharge of static is only a problem if it happens thru the sensitive electronics, which is why they use ESD protection - it will discharge thru there instead of the thru the electronics.

If you use your multimeter to watch your body voltage, you can see the same effect described earlier for 'earthing' by using ESD protective devices.  And in fact, facilities which take ESD protection seriously have a similar function in a test station in order to verify your heel straps, wrist strap, etc. before entering the sensitive area, and they will also regularly test the workstations to ensure their ESD protection is functional.
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by Gumby » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:03 pm

AgAu, you clearly know more about this than I do. But, I'm seeing conflicting analysis on this. Can you clear it up? I'd appreciate it.

(The emphasis is theirs, not mine.)
equilibrauk.com wrote: For ‘Grounding’ purposes there are only three (3) types of material for the reader to consider: 1. Conductive, 2. Dissipative (also known as AntiStatic) and, 3. Insulative. An example of the difference in resistance to ground (measured in Ohms as rg) can be found in the following Industry Standard Table: Whilst this Table applies to flooring and footwear it is a good example of ‘Primary Grounding’.

[align=center]Image[/align]

As an example, for any material (or substance) to be classified as being Conductive, and therefore able to offer excellent two way connection and interaction with the Earth, it must be in the range of 101 (or less) - 105 Ohms (resistance to ground, rg). Dissipative (antistatic) materials are found in the range of 106 – 1011 Ohms (though some Industry Standards accept 1012). Insulative materials on the other hand - used as soles for almost ALL shoes today - totally insulate us from any connection and interaction with the earth/ground and any voltage discharge and consequential benefit this connection may provide.

In numerous tests that we have carried out using a professional AC voltage tester with true RMS capability with an accuracy of 0.05%, we have established that it is the resistance (or the level of conductivity) of the material being used for earthing/grounding purposes that actually makes the difference in body voltage reduction.

Therefore, the level of Body voltage reduction has – within certain limits - nothing to do with the ‘inline resistors’ built into the earthing leads and ground plugs that are there to protect us from electric shock! We have tested a very conductive Barefoot Earthing Mat using a 50 KOhm & a 100 KOhm Resistor with ground rod, and up to 3 x 1 Meg Ohm resistors ‘in line’ connected to a Mains Earth outlet, and the reduction in body voltage to extremely low mV  has been the same on every occasion.  As has the increase in DC Body Voltage (flow of electrons from the earth).

However, when we carried out the same tests on less conductive materials and dissipative materials, the reduction in AC body voltage was a lot less depending on the resistance/conductivity of the material used in the tests, and likewise the increase in DC body was reduced in line with higher resistance/lower conductivity of the material.

Remember, we have evolved with direct connection with the earth for thousands, if not millions of years, and this abiotic and biotic connection/interaction with nature has been vital to our health, development and well being. So reconnection with the earth using the most conductive material is important on many levels. Ideally, in our opinion, the reader should be looking at a material used for earthing/grounding that is no more than 100 x 103 Ohms in resistance per square, because the lower the ‘resistance’ the more conductive the material is. This allows for greater AC body voltage reduction, a greater flow of free electrons from the Earth, which in turn is better for the body and for our wellbeing. Therefore, in our opinion, less than 100 KOhms resistance is highly recommended – which would be written as < 100 x 103 Ohms. Though lower resistance levels are even better still at reducing body voltage!


Source: http://www.equilibrauk.com/earthing-gar ... -and-more/
I don't fully understand all that, but, they seem to be referencing different ISO classifications between "conductive" material  (i.e. Earthing devices) and "dissipative" material (i.e. antistatic devices). If there's no difference, why the different ISO classifications?
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:41 pm

I ran across this nice attempt to debunk earthing.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/earthing/

The comments are mostly in agreement with the article, but toward the bottom there are some pretty good counterpoints.

Some people seem so anxious to be the first to call something stupid that they sometimes don't bother to seriously look into the arguments on which the original claim is based.

I'm sure that there was a time when most experts would have laughed at a person who said that certain vitamin deficiencies could be corrected by exposure to sunlight.

I'm not saying that earthing is or isn't legitimate.  I'm just saying that some of the skeptics seem to anxious to say that it's stupid, it's almost like they've made up their minds before they even look at any of the arguments offered by its proponents.

***

On a side note, I am finding that there are many interesting ways to ground electric devices that otherwise throw off a lot of electricity.  For an ungrounded computer, if you connect it to a grounded printer, the computer is grounded as well.  For ungrounded external speakers, plugging them into a grounded computer's headphone jack grounds the speakers as well, etc.
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by MediumTex » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:52 pm

Running electric devices on battery power also dramatically reduces the voltage that they throw off.

For example, I have a large external iphone battery.  I can use this to charge my phone rather than plugging it in at night where it sits close to my head (I use a sleep tracker app).  I charge the battery during the day when I'm not there.  BTW, I keep it in airplane mode at night.
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by dragoncar » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:26 pm

MediumTex wrote: I ran across this nice attempt to debunk earthing.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/earthing/

The comments are mostly in agreement with the article, but toward the bottom there are some pretty good counterpoints.

Some people seem so anxious to be the first to call something stupid that they sometimes don't bother to seriously look into the arguments on which the original claim is based.

I'm sure that there was a time when most experts would have laughed at a person who said that certain vitamin deficiencies could be corrected by exposure to sunlight.

I'm not saying that earthing is or isn't legitimate.  I'm just saying that some of the skeptics seem to anxious to say that it's stupid, it's almost like they've made up their minds before they even look at any of the arguments offered by its proponents.

***

On a side note, I am finding that there are many interesting ways to ground electric devices that otherwise throw off a lot of electricity.  For an ungrounded computer, if you connect it to a grounded printer, the computer is grounded as well.  For ungrounded external speakers, plugging them into a grounded computer's headphone jack grounds the speakers as well, etc.
Often the issue isn't with the underlying claim -- as you point out many people will stop reading if the "pitch" just seems off.  In the case of earthing, everything in this thread appears overly jargony... This is not how people knowledgable in electricity talk about conductivity, etc.  I would guess the same goes for those knowledgeable about medicine.  For example, the chart above may be technically accurate, but it just looks ridiculous to me.  The accompanying description reads like someone who did a lot of research trying to make their product sound smart to laypeople. 

This doesn't mean it's wrong (there's some logical fallacy where you assume something is wrong because the reasoning is wrong, etc.). But it's hard to fight your BS detector right?

I agree with agau that there is likely no practical difference between an "earthing mat" and an wad bracelet.  But you can do your own research - insert your own 1 Mohm resistor in line with your grounding wire and see if you feel different.  See if your mitimeter readings are different.  In theory you should still be tied to ground unless there is a constant current running through you.  As I understand it, the overall charge accumulated on a person is small, and would this be dissipated very quickly for any reasonable resistance value.  You can do the math yourself, but my intuition says we are talking fractions of a second.

I didn't know about the atmospheric electric gradient, but I still have no idea why extra electrons would be desirable in the human body.  When you are earthed, so you constantly get little shocks whenever you touch doorknobs? (According to Wikipedia, this doornob is around 100v above ground right?)
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by MediumTex » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:58 am

While the science is thin, there are several double blind studies that seem to support some of the earthing claims.

A study I would like to see would compare the health of electrical workers who wear anti-static bands regularly to the rest of the general public.  That would be interesting.
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by Gumby » Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:55 am

I realize that this company is trying to sell a product, and perhaps not being fully honest, but this site claims that the overall resistance of ESD equipment in a factory is usually more than just the 1 MegaOhm resistor:
Groundology.com wrote:Q. I've seen similar products used in the electronics industry for electrostatic discharge (ESD) protection.  Can I use these for grounding?

A. Yes, you can, and they will have some benefit.  However such systems have quite a large resistance built in which dampens the effect of the grounding, specifically the induced voltages in the body due to EMF are not reduced so effectively with such systems.  The equipment we sell is designed for lowest ground resistance, while still being safe to connect via a mains electrical outlet.

Typically, ESD equipment has 1 MegaOhm resistance per component in the system, and so generally a complete system will have at least 2 MegaOhm (2000 KiloOhm) resistance (e.g. a plug plus a cord).  Additionally, ESD equipment is often dissipative rather than fully conductive, which adds further resistance.  Our systems are manufactured with a total resistance of 100 KiloOhm, a much lower resistance, and all our equipment is fully conductive, not dissipative.


Source: http://www.groundology.com/us/faqs#q11
So, it sounds like the factory workers are dealing with more like 2 MegaOhms.

I think Earthing proponents say that the "benefit" of Earthing has probably more to do with the voodoo-ish energy coming from the Earth, and perhaps somewhat less to do with the dissipation of excess voltage or lowered EMFs. If this low-level energy — whatever it is — is met with resistance, they argue that it's effect is diminished. I believe they claim that a 100 KiloOhm resistor lets more of this energy through than a 1 MegaOhm or 2 MegaOhm resistor does. As a layman, I don't claim to know if that is true or not.

My question, from above, is why do ISO standards classify "conductive" and "dissipative" grounding differently if Earthing critics claim that "conductive" and "dissipative" have the exact same effect? If they had the same effect, I don't see why they would be classified differently. The different classification suggests that the equipment and effect is different.
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by notsheigetz » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:19 am

MediumTex wrote: I ran across this nice attempt to debunk earthing.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/earthing/

I'm sure that there was a time when most experts would have laughed at a person who said that certain vitamin deficiencies could be corrected by exposure to sunlight.
I loved the comment by SharonRichter .... http://theness.com/neurologicablog/inde ... ment-50591

It has almost convinced me to give it a try.

I've read many of Steven Novella's articles on that website and others and although I think he is is probably right-on most of the time, he often strikes me as the kind of arrogant, "settled-science" dogmatist that the lady is talking about in her comments. As the saying goes, it's not what they know that bothers me but what they know that ain't so. I noticed there were no rejoinders to her comments though they may still be forthcoming.
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by Gumby » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:21 pm

notsheigetz wrote:I loved the comment by SharonRichter .... http://theness.com/neurologicablog/inde ... ment-50591
Now that's a comment. Well done.

I like that she brings up the story about H. Pylori. I remember Chris Kresser talking about how hard it was for Marshall's hypothesis to gain acceptance...
Chris Kresser: RHR Podcast wrote:Chris Kresser: ...H. pylori, Helicobacter pylori, is the bacterium that has been shown to contribute to ulcer formation, and this was a pretty interesting story...It used to be thought that ulcers were caused just by stress, and there was a guy in Australia, a doctor who came to believe that they were actually caused by a bacterium called H. pylori.  Nobody believed him.  He presented this data at medical conferences.  He was basically laughed off the stage, and growing increasingly desperate over the years, he finally decided to swallow a vial full of H. pylori.

Danny Roddy:  Shut up.  Really?

Chris Kresser:  I’m not joking.  This is 100% true.

Danny Roddy:  I didn’t know that’s how –

Chris Kresser:  This is commitment to science, OK?  Or being right!  I don’t know what was driving him, but his name is Dr. Marshall, I think.  And he swallowed the H. pylori, and lo and behold, he developed an ulcer, which he did not have before.  And then the coup d’etat was that he treated himself with an antibiotic and cured his ulcer.  So, even after that, believe it or not, people were still skeptical for a while, I mean, which is just crazy.  Shows you how hard it is to change the dominant paradigm.  So, he ended up winning the Nobel Prize for Medicine, so he got the last laugh, right?  Anyways, we know now that H. pylori does contribute to ulcers.


Source: http://chriskresser.com/answers-to-your ... -digestion
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by MediumTex » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:08 am

One interesting way of monitoring whether the earthing mat may be doing anything good that is a bit less subjective than many measures is to use a sleep monitoring app for your phone while using the mat. 

It is, of course, necessary to have some pre-earthing mat sleep data to compare to the quality of sleep you are getting with the earthing mat, but this seems like it would be a pretty good data point to look at.
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Re: Earthing : Perhaps one of the greatest discoveries, ever

Post by Gumby » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:16 pm

Supposedly if you use a Zeo headband monitor while sleeping, you can see improved REM while Earthing. But, I can't confirm it myself since I don't have a Zeo. One person with a Zeo saw improvement but then started seeing reduced scores after a few days and then discovered that his Earthing mat had been accidentally unplugged!

I did try Earthing overnight for three nights last week. It didn't go so well. I slept terribly the first night, but oddly I awoke feeling incredibly refreshed. Same thing happened the second night, but the third night I had total insomnia. I was tired, but wired. From what I can tell, very few people seem to react to Earthing with insomnia — most people sleep very soundly. I suspect my problem is that I have some heavy metals that my body is detoxing (long story) and by the third consecutive night the insomnia felt like a Herxheimer reaction — it was accompanied by some mild nausea the next day. Nevertheless, I have had some of the typical benefits, such as improved joint mobility, reduced brain fog, more energy, and higher HRV (Heart Rate Variability) scores.

So, I've cut back to 3-5 hours of Earthing each night before bed — which is actually more than I used to be able to tolerate — and will try that for a few weeks before attempting another overnight. I think it will take me awhile before I can Earth overnight regularly, but I'm not in any rush. I look at my ability to Earth as an indicator of progress.
Last edited by Gumby on Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing I say should be construed as advice or expertise. I am only sharing opinions which may or may not be applicable in any given case.
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