The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

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Gumby
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by Gumby » Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:00 pm

Benko wrote:
MediumTex wrote: What is K2 and how do you take it?
http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-Vitam ... sules/6116
Carlson Labs, Vitamin K2, 5 mg, 60 Capsules
Our Price: $16.19

no commercial interest.

Vit K is a vitamin commonly thought of as being involved mainly in blood clotting but different forms also are important for bones and e.g. have been used to treat osteoporosis (when used in higer doses) in Japan for...ages.
Personally, I'm a fan of the Thorne MK-4 drops, but they are more expensive. A single drop is a milligram, which is more than daily dose you would ever get naturally from any food — so the bottle lasts for a very long time. The drops are handy as you could mix a single drop into a soup and eat it over the course of three days and you'd pretty much simulate what you would get from a K2-rich diet. However, to truly see results, it helps to avoid large quantities of grains — which rob the body of Vitamin D when improperly prepared. Also, eating a nutrient-dense diet with quality fats to obtain the fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E and K) is crucial.

Weston Price discovered K2 (he called it "Activator X" at the time) and, as a dentist, he realized that you could give High Vitamin Butter Oil (a natural K2 MK-4/MK-7 "superfood") and Fermented Cod Liver Oil (a Vitamin A and D "superfood") to patients to heal their cavities with ease. Modern/improperly prepared grains were found to rob the body of Vitamin D, so the best results were seen when modern grains were minimized (also shown by Sir Edward Mellanby's research with children and dogs). Really fascinating stuff.

Ideally you'd get your MK-4/MK-7 (and the other long-chain menaquinones MK-8, MK-9, etc) from animal food and fermented foods. But, it's difficult to do these days since the Vitamin K1 concentrations in the ground (used by animals to derive K2) have diminished from poor farming techniques over the centuries.
Last edited by Gumby on Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by smurff » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:29 pm

MediumTex wrote: Anyone have any thoughts on my pre-brushing teeth wiping idea?
I do this often with a paper towel, so I was wondering:  Why use a microfiber towel?

There are wipes for everything now, so it's a matter of time before someone comes up with tooth wipes.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by Gumby » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:50 am

smurff wrote:
MediumTex wrote: Anyone have any thoughts on my pre-brushing teeth wiping idea?
I do this often with a paper towel, so I was wondering:  Why use a microfiber towel?

There are wipes for everything now, so it's a matter of time before someone comes up with tooth wipes.
There already are tooth wipes for children (available on Amazon.com). I'm sure it doesn't hurt, and it probably helps a bit by removing some gunk from the mouth that could otherwise be scrubbed into the gum line (which is one of the unfortunate flaws of most toothbrushing).

If you've ever wondered how primitive cultures — who didn't eat modern grains — kept their mouths so clean and healthy before toothbrushes were invented, people used "chewing sticks" from very specific trees or bushes:

http://www.afrostylemag.com/chewingstick.html

There was something about the bark and oils in these sticks that removed food and kept bad bacteria in check.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by dualstow » Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:47 am

I've read about Indians chewing neem, and once upon a time I had neem Ayurvedic toothpaste.
Also, I've read articles about Early Man chewing birch in Europe.

Edit: There's a product at Amazon that says, "Made from Licorice Root (Neem Tree)"  ??? Definitely not the same thing.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by Gumby » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:02 am

It's interesting because there are these instinctual rituals that kept mouths clean for millions of years in every animal. My dog has been eating a raw food carnivorous diet for a few years now (she was eating "ancestrally" way before I was) and her teeth look amazing even though I never ever brush them. Part of the trick is that she chews on a raw bone every couple of days and her teeth get so white afterwards. Most of the dogs in the neighborhood have terrible, rotting, teeth (very bad for their health) and I can only suspect they are eating grain-based diets from a bag. So, there is definitely a systemic/internal aspect about dental care where proper hygiene and nutient-dense diet allows remineraliation to occur via one's vitamin/mineral-rich saliva combined with chewing on things that help clean off the teeth.

NOTE: Never give your dog a cooked bone as it can splinter and puncture their intestines. Dogs should only eat raw bones.
Last edited by Gumby on Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by Gumby » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:29 am

dualstow wrote: I've read about Indians chewing neem, and once upon a time I had neem Ayurvedic toothpaste.
Also, I've read articles about Early Man chewing birch in Europe.

Edit: There's a product at Amazon that says, "Made from Licorice Root (Neem Tree)"  ??? Definitely not the same thing.
ASIN: B001HHFLM2

Looks like "Miswak" sticks have a cult following. Wikipedia claims:
Wikipedia.org wrote:Studies
A 2003 scientific study comparing the use of miswak with ordinary toothbrushes concluded that the results clearly were in favor of the users who had been using the miswak, provided they had been given proper instruction in how to brush using it. The World Health Organization (WHO) recommended the use of the miswak in 1986 and in 2000 an international consensus report on oral hygiene concluded that further research was needed to document the effect of the miswak.
Dr. Rami Mohammed Diabi, who spent more than 17 years researching the effects of miswak on health, and especially its anti-addiction effects on smokers (curative and preventive sides), has opened a field of science and research with his last publication: "Miswak Medicine Theory" or Sewak Puncture medicine which led him to what is called Beyond Sewak: World of Science and Research. Miswak also is contributing in the fight against desertification, thereby affecting our environment and global climate.

Miswak extract vs. oral disinfectants.
Studies indicate that Salvadora persica extract is somewhat comparable to other oral disinfectants and anti-plaque agents like Triclosan and Chlorhexidine Gluconate if used at a very high concentration


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miswak
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by williswine » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:38 am

Peelu USA (no affiliation) sells dental fibers made from the same tree as that chewing stick. I have been using http://peelu.com/dental-fibers/spearmint-25-oz/ for years now and my dental hygienist is always amazed at how little plaque I have. I don't really like the taste of it but it leaves my mouth and teeth so clean and it does not leave a toothpaste after taste that sometimes affects my sleep. Added bonus is that it is not a liquid so travels really easy. Oh, and it lasts a long long time (just like my crystal deodorant stick).

I'm however wondering if the system mentioned in the first post wouldn't do an even better job even though it certainly costs a lot more and has many more chemicals involved.  Wonder what Dr Ellie would say, maybe don't change a thing!
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by Gumby » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:52 am

williswine wrote: Peelu USA (no affiliation) sells dental fibers made from the same tree as that chewing stick
Nice. That's really interesting. Though, the chewing stick itself seems to have some functional advantage over the Peelu.
Afro Style Magazine wrote:Continued chewing loosens and dislodges particles between the teeth, which in turn stimulates blood circulation in the gums. Another benefit of the chew stick is that it increases saliva production, which in turn acts as a natural mouthwash that rinses away bacteria and creates an inhospitable environment for them to thrive and flourish.

Source: http://www.afrostylemag.com/chewingstick.html
However, I'm intrigued by the Peelu, as the properties of the fibers seem to be pretty powerful and they are very cheap.

Miswak sticks are also pretty cheap too..

http://amzn.com/B001G47L24
williswine wrote:I'm however wondering if the system mentioned in the first post wouldn't do an even better job even though it certainly costs a lot more and has many more chemicals involved.  Wonder what Dr Ellie would say, maybe don't change a thing!
In my experience, any doctor who bets their career on a specific approach never endorses and alternative approach. If you think about it, Dr. Ellie's approach — while very successful — is a man-made hack to achieve what the little chewing stick does. (And she's in the business of selling books and "Zellie Water"). My guess is that both approaches are very good. The only difference is that the chewing stick has a few million more years of successful use ;)
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by williswine » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:05 am

The chewing stick might replace the indeed very cost efficient toothbrush + Peelu combination. I don't know how long it would last compared to the latter. One thing I like with Peelu and my soft toothbrush is that I can add flavoring, mint oils or even toothpaste to change the taste at will. And it is convenient and somewhat conventional, taking perhaps less space than several sticks in my travel bag. I need to research the sticks. Any good source?

I am intrigued by the Ellie system as it claims to reverse decay, bring back recssed gum, give very fresh breath, aso. I think my breath is fine but it is definitely not Listerine fresh. Also, I have had a decay while using Peelu  but I would attribute that to forgetting to brush (and floss) after eating sweets before bed time ::)  for a long time ( several years in fact) I went with just Peelu and no decay at all...

EDIT: I just saw the amazon source for the chewing sticks.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by Gumby » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:23 am

williswine wrote:One thing I like with Peelu and my soft toothbrush is that I can add flavoring, mint oils or even toothpaste to change the taste at will. And it is convenient and somewhat conventional, taking perhaps less space than several sticks in my travel bag.
Some say each stick lasts a few weeks. Other (compulsive chewers) say each stick lasts about a week or so. I guess it depends on how much chewing you do. The interesting thing is that the miswak chewing sticks really look like toothbrushes :)

[align=center]Image[/align]

I am a fan of the powders at the moment and I'm slowly trying them out one by one. Dr. Christopher's Tooth Powder also has a cult following, as do many others (Dr. Schulze's Tooth Formula for instance, a liquid though). A lot of these products use White Oak Bark, or Tea Tree Oil which also has chewing stick properties. However, I tend to avoid tea tree oil because there is some evidence that it can block testosterone and promote estrogen (not definitively proven though).
williswine wrote:I am intrigued by the Ellie system as it claims to reverse decay, bring back recssed gum, give very fresh breath
Most of these alternative approaches seem to reverse decay. But, I think Dr. Ellie's is one of the few to do it with conventional ingredients chemicals.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by Gumby » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:00 am

williswine wrote:I need to research the sticks.
Here's a great scientific review of miswak: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3545237/

Interestingly, the periodontist who wrote the review mentions that while the evidence for miswak is generally very positive, gum recession can occur with miswak — believed to likely be from overuse (sometimes used 5 times per day, after prayer, in Islam) or improper use.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by dualstow » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:30 pm

williswine wrote: Peelu USA (no affiliation) sells dental fibers made from the same tree as that chewing stick.
Neat! I have bought Peelu's xylitol gum before. It wasn't cheap, but it was good quality.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by MediumTex » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:40 am

smurff wrote:
MediumTex wrote: Anyone have any thoughts on my pre-brushing teeth wiping idea?
I do this often with a paper towel, so I was wondering:  Why use a microfiber towel?

There are wipes for everything now, so it's a matter of time before someone comes up with tooth wipes.
A microfiber towel just gives you many more contact points on the surface being wiped.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:25 am

WiseOne wrote: Where did you hear about this regime, or did you develop it yourself?  A question...what's the extra benefit provided by the closys pre-brushing?  Brushing alone + Listerine should be enough to deal with oral pathogens, but no amount of mouthwashing is going to convert your mouth into an OR clean room.
The CloSys is actually a revolutionary way to deliver chlorine dioxide which is not stable.  Chlorine dioxide is a gentle, weak oxidant compared to other oxidants, but it is also a broad spectrum anti-microbial.  It's powerful enough that it is used to disinfect anthrax.  There was a bit of a scam a few years ago in getting people to ingest sodium chlorite internally (it would then turn into chlorine dioxide upon contact with an acid), called Miracle Mineral Supplement.  CloSys also has unique wetting properties that make it glide under the gumline.  So the main purpose of CloSys is to eradicate pathogenic bacteria from the mouth and restore and heal up gum pockets back to normal (or prevent them in the first place).  No need to fuss around with annoying irrigators and other too-much-work approaches.  I can tell you that the CloSys does a better job at cleaning the mouth than Listerine if going by morning-breath is any indication...  it should, since it's modern chemistry compared to Listerine which is just an old herbal formula once marketed for use as a douche!

Also, the ACT brand is necessary.  The Walmart clone version did not have the same level of stickiness and I don't think it was eradicating all of the Listerine as I was starting to get tooth pain.  However, I've found the Walmart clone version of Listerine to be completely acceptable since its just essential oil extracts and acid in water.  I love the Machiavellian irony of selling highly acidic Listerine as a last oral care step and keeping dentists in business.

I no longer advocate the use of Dr. Schulze's Tooth & Gum Formula in the regime.  It causes teeth staining, unfortunately.  I'd reserve its use for really serious mouth cases, which is highly unlikely to happen to anyone ever using this regime.

I've tried all the alternative approaches (baking soda, neem, peelu, xylitol, essential oils, etc.) over the years and they are just not as effective as this combined regime with chemicals.  That's just how it is.  Unlike Gumby, I don't have the time every day to sit around and thoroughly outline my teeth and gumline with a stick. ;)

One last thing...  I cannot take CloSys twice a day as I get a nasty metallic taste on my tongue and in mouth and it effects taste for a day or two.  So, I use baking soda in water as a pre-rinse in the morning.  I just don't brush with it as its too harsh and strips the protective biofilm off your teeth.  No idea if a microfiber cloth strips that off, MT!
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by t-bear52 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:56 pm

CloSys is the only oral rinse I recommend. Protective biofilm is a bunch of hooey.
Bottom line, mechanically (floss, brushes, inter-dental simulators) get the biofilm off the teeth and you will have no issues with dental caries nor periodontal disease.
Dental disease is an infections. Get rid of the bugs and live a life of no dental disease other than occlusal disease.
You need the bugs, substrate, and food source for the infection. All play a role in dental disease.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by Reub » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:05 pm

Are we certain that there aren't "good bugs" in the mouth that we need as much as we need the "good bugs" in our digestive system?
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by t-bear52 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:22 pm

Of Course there are. But good luck with your selection protocols!
bottom line: No Biofilm= No Problems
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:43 pm

There are now oral probiotic supplements to replenish the "good bugs" in the mouth (I don't need more shit as 5 mins for this regime is all I can personally take).  It's mostly aimed at throat and ear infections.

But the "protective biofilm" is Dr. Ellie's speculative claim about the harshness of using baking soda to brush and why it is not recommended.

I don't remember if I mentioned it, but a tongue scraper is highly recommended.  It does the most for getting rid of morning breath beyond the regime.  I've done the regime where I forget to scrape and its just not as fresh.  The tongue is a bacteria sponge/minefield.  Just scrape before doing the regime.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by Benko » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:53 am

Welcome back MG.

Thanks for info.    Closys looks interesting. 
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by Benko » Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:20 pm

If you read what the closys people recommend:

http://www.closys.com/our_products/step ... -care.html

They suggest:

--flossing
--waterpik with dilute closys
--brushing with closys toothpaste
--then rinsing with closys
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by WiseOne » Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:12 pm

Thanks for the info about Closys.  I found a toothpaste but no rinse - you're talking about the rinse, correct?

I'm using a rather unlikely oral rinse choice:  an enzymatic spray for pets!  Don't laugh.  I got Petzlife oral spray for my cats on the advice of a friend, only to discover that the thing terrified my cats so much that even now, months later, they yelp and run away even if I so much as hold it within 2 feet of them.  I'm completely baffled why anyone would think that cats would tolerate this (people use sprays to punish cats....duh).

Anyway I had this $20+ bottle of goop and I checked the ingredients, all very human-safe so I thought, what the hey I might as well try it on myself.  My next dental cleaning was the quickest and easiest I've ever had in my life, and that was after only about 2 weeks of use!  I bought another for my mother to use on my dad, who is too disabled to brush his own teeth.

I'm amazed no one has developed a product like this for humans - but of course I know why:  the cost of FDA trials would be prohibitive.  And worry not, it's not chicken flavored or anything, it's peppermint.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by dualstow » Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:20 pm

Let me know if the Closys interferes with your sense of taste at all. I rinse with Biotene.
I'm a little paranoid about trying anything new ever since Zicam messed with my sense of smell.

I also think the spice cardamom is good for your gums. It's expensive, but if you already like it in your cooking...
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by Benko » Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:03 pm

I don't know if rinsing twice is necessary, but using dilute stuff with a waterpik is what I have been doing for years with listerene and clearly if you aim the waterpik nozzle at the gumline (WITH THE FLOW RATE LOWISH) you are going to get better penetration then just swishing with the stuff.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:09 pm

WiseOne wrote: Thanks for the info about Closys.  I found a toothpaste but no rinse - you're talking about the rinse, correct?
Correct.  The PetzLife looks like it has one of Listerine's ingredients.

Benko: Pay no attention to marketing fiction.  I wonder what all that pro-oxidizing would do to your enamel.  While I support that entrepreneurs should be able to offer dental whitening services without a protectionist license, it clearly damages teeth.

I fear that you guys may not be realizing how interdependent the regime products are on each other.  They're not to be used in isolation nor the use of substitution products or in isolation.  Yes, I know human nature loves novelty and loves to tinker and ruin a good thing, but realize you are going up against 30-years of clinical experience as well as literature evidence on what really works. 

Flossing is not necessary with the regime, but I don't expect anyone to take it at face value.  Prove it to yourself, first.  I don't know about waterpicking but if CloSys does the job as it seems to do, that may be redundant as well.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by Reub » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:50 pm

I have just received my Closys rinse purchased through Amazon. I like the way it makes my mouth feel and am gargling with it too. Could it be used as a gargle to help prevent sore/strep throats as well?
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