Rebalancing... Hormones?

[Gumby]

Many of us have spent the past few years trying to find the proper balance of our investment portfolios. Recently, I heard that most people probably have hormone imbalances and don't even know it — and these hormone imbalances are often responsible for everything from aches and pains, migraines to weight gain. In today's modern world, many of us are bombarded by estrogens in everything from sunscreen, moisturizers and plastic bottles, and it seems our livers become overloaded with these hormones and they eventually overrun our bodies.

In episode 136 of Robb Wolf's The Paleo Solution Podcast, Wolf interviews "strength and conditioning and hormonal modulation guru expert extraordinaire Brad Davidson". On the podcast, Davidson says the following...

...Women don’t understand all the xeno estrogens that are in their lotion, their perfume, their shampoos. So we have real big discussion with high level athlete. Any type of a physique matters or performance in the body matters, we have a real big conversation. I always send them to EWG.org to rank their products to make sure that stuff's out.

But the big ones that I see in the chemicals are DBP, DEP, DEAHP, BZBP and DNP. Those are the ingredients you want to look for that are most dangerous or anything that has paraben after it. That's amazing how fast... Mark Schauss is a guy that I was introduced to through Charles. I took a seminar with him on toxicity.

He believes a large amount of toxins coming in are through solvents. The stuff we're putting on our bodies. So that's always a top 5 thing. After that, it's always an inability to detoxify estrogens appropriately, so we'll always use Dimavale, you know, sulforaphane products, to really help aid in the detoxification of the estrogen.

Most women just don’t understand that. I think every man, woman and child today has to be on some type of estrogen detoxification product every day because we're just bombarded and then 5, sleep's always an issue.

In my opinion, I've learned you know you have a liver toxicity issues when you're awake between 1 and 3. You know, it's kind of the Chinese clock for liver. I find when people, especially women when they're awake between 1 and 3, they're livers are overly burned with xeno-estrogens.
Source: http://robbwolf.com/2012/06/12/estrogen ... isode-136/

I'm in my mid 30s, have no apparent health issues, I feel fine, and I am thin, but I've always wondered about how modern products affect our hormones on a daily basis.

While rebalancing our portfolios is certainly important, I can't help but wonder if checking our hormones, occasionally, is a good idea as we age.

Unfortunately, many doctors do not fully understand how to support hormone imbalances. So I would recommend that anyone who is interested in rebalancing their hormones work with a qualified functional medical practitioner and possibly get an additional 2 or 3 medical opinions, if possible. This is not something you want to do entirely on your own.

However, I do recommend learning as much as possible about the subject before talking to your practitioner. Often a bit of education can save you a lot of pain (and money) down the road.

[Benko]

IF you're a 30 year old male, you certainly don't need to do anything about your hormones, though avoiding unnecessary plastics is probably a good idea.

"I find when people, especially women when they're awake between 1 and 3, they're livers are overly burned with xeno-estrogens."

A little knowledge is dangerous.  He is certainly correct about liver corresponding to 2AM more or less, but in chinese medicine liver also corresponds to anger.  Which do you think is more common, people with lots of anger (including many years or repressed anger), or people with environmental toxins?

[Gumby]

IF you're a 30 year old male, you certainly don't need to do anything about your hormones, though avoiding unnecessary plastics is probably a good idea.

Yes, I think I'm probably fine. Though, I will probably take a saliva hormone test just to get a baseline and maybe track it over the next few years. (I will also take it with a grain of salt, knowing that the test could be inaccurate — or even the idea of what is "normal" could be inaccurate as well. Either way, I think it's probably a good idea to get a baseline for the future).

I may also take a DIM detox for a month or two just to flush my liver out a bit. Who knows what's accumulated in there over the years.

I suspect women are probably worse off as many take hormone-changing birth control pills, and slather lots of parabens and other cosmetic hormone-interfering chemicals all over their bodies every day.

"I find when people, especially women when they're awake between 1 and 3, they're livers are overly burned with xeno-estrogens."

A little knowledge is dangerous.  He is certainly correct about liver corresponding to 2AM more or less, but in chinese medicine liver also corresponds to anger.  Which do you think is more common, people with lots of anger (including many years or repressed anger), or people with environmental toxins?

Maybe they are angry that their liver is overwhelmed with estrogens.

[Benko]

I don't know what the interlab variation is, so the saliva baseline might only be useful if you get your study in 20 years from the same lab.

[Gumby]

I don't know what the interlab variation is, so the saliva baseline might only be useful if you get your study in 20 years from the same lab.

Good point. Though, I believe ZRT is the only retail saliva self-hormone testing service at the moment.

So, it sounds like saliva is good for a getting some basic clues (and it's cheap and can be done in the comfort of your own home), while blood testing is far superior?

Here is an interesting post on getting hormone blood tests from your doctor...

Robb Wolf: It’s In The Blood: When It Rains It Pours

It should be noted that you don’t need to have signs or symptoms to warrant a blood test. You can get one just to take a timed picture of what is going on at the moment and be evaluated, because even though you feel good now, there may in fact be something wrong.

Source: Chris Espinosa: It’s In The Blood: When It Rains It Pours

[Gumby]

IF you're a 30 year old male, you certainly don't need to do anything about your hormones, though avoiding unnecessary plastics is probably a good idea.

I think "avoiding" exposure to various hormone disruptors is easier said than done for most people. Even those little paper receipts you get from ATMs and cash registers are loaded with BPA that is easily absorbed transdermally. Parabens and phthalates are in nearly every shampoo, deodorant, cologne, sunscreen and general cosmetics these days. Hard to "avoid" those things if you're the average person.

I think the average person can certainly tolerate some levels of these toxins and disruptor, but how exactly does one know if they've surpassed their limit or not? Testing seems to be the only way to know for sure.

[Benko]

"Even those little paper receipts you get from ATMs and cash registers are loaded with BPA that is easily absorbed transdermally" Yikes! 

On second thought, I would suggest you NOT get any hormone tests since it may give you something to worry about, and it is not likely to change what you do.

I am totally serious.

[Gumby]

Yikes!

Says the doctor who still uses Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) non-stick cookware  

On second thought, I would suggest you NOT get any hormone tests since it may give you something to worry about, and it is not likely to change what you do.

I am totally serious.

Relax, Benko. I'm really not worried about it. I suppose you would tell someone not to test their home for radon or lead contamination because you think they would worry about the results? I'm sure everything is fine. And even if it's not I would probably just try to get more sleep or workout more to correct things.

[MachineGhost]

A little knowledge is dangerous.  He is certainly correct about liver corresponding to 2AM more or less, but in chinese medicine liver also corresponds to anger.  Which do you think is more common, people with lots of anger (including many years or repressed anger), or people with environmental toxins?

How about both?

On second thought, I would suggest you NOT get any hormone tests since it may give you something to worry about, and it is not likely to change what you do.

I am totally serious.

Without a foreplan for rectification, it does seem unneedlessly alarmist to hunt down a potential health issue you can't do anything about.

I don't find DIM even all that interesting in terms of relative hormone detoxification, but I digress.  Hint: body fat is where toxic hormones are stored, not the liver.

[Gumby]

Without a foreplan for rectification, it does seem unneedlessly alarmist to hunt down a potential health issue you can't do anything about.

Interesting. So, if one found out they had, say, low Testosterone, can't they then decide to research ways to reverse that or see a practitioner about it? I don't find a verdict like that to be particularly scary or anything. It's just information you can use to make informed decisions. Wouldn't it be better to know then to ignore a potential problem down the road? I mean, seriously, what's the big deal?

[Benko]

Without a foreplan for rectification, it does seem unneedlessly alarmist to hunt down a potential health issue you can't do anything about.

Interesting. So, if one found out they had, say, low Testosterone, can't they then decide to research ways to reverse that or see a practitioner about it? I don't find a verdict like that to be particularly scary or anything. It's just information you can use to make informed decisions. Wouldn't it be better to know then to ignore a potential problem down the road? I mean, seriously, what's the big deal?

The odds of finding a hormone problem in a 30s male with no symptoms are slim to none.

Getting sleep and doing lots of squats (or olympic exercises) OTOH is a great idea.

[Gumby]

Without a foreplan for rectification, it does seem unneedlessly alarmist to hunt down a potential health issue you can't do anything about.

Interesting. So, if one found out they had, say, low Testosterone, can't they then decide to research ways to reverse that or see a practitioner about it? I don't find a verdict like that to be particularly scary or anything. It's just information you can use to make informed decisions. Wouldn't it be better to know then to ignore a potential problem down the road? I mean, seriously, what's the big deal?

The odds of finding a hormone problem in a 30s male with no symptoms are slim to none.

Getting sleep and doing lots of squats (or olympic exercises) OTOH is a great idea.

Ah. I see. Got it. I was just under the impression that its very common for T to drop steeply in one's 30s.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/healt ... erone.html

But, you are probably right that it's far better to just counteract that by hitting the weights. I just thought it might be good to have a baseline before starting a weightlifting regimen, to track progress.

[Benko]

Did you miss the word fatherhood?  it is fatherhood.  Nature decreases test of fathers given the nature of test and fatherhood

[Gumby]

Did you miss the word fatherhood?  it is fatherhood.  Nature decreases test of fathers given the nature of test and fatherhood

Just curious, but you don't think it's possible for one's T to get too low? Or have cortisol that's chronically elevated? Or are we just saying that T is supposed to be very low and we shouldn't worry about cortisol levels when we are in our 30s. Aren't there any problems associated with high cortisol and low T?

[Benko]

Did you miss the word fatherhood?  it is fatherhood.  Nature decreases test of fathers given the nature of test and fatherhood

Just curious, but you don't think it's possible for one's T to get too low? Or have cortisol that's chronically elevated? Or are we just saying that T is supposed to be very low and we shouldn't worry about cortisol levels when we are in our 30s. Aren't there any problems associated with high cortisol and low T?

This is the first time cortisol has been mentioned in this thread (though I am not shocked that you mentioned it).  Of course it is possible to have cortisol that is chronically elevated (and have that do bad things to your test).  Whether you actually have elevated cortisol, or are just stressed, etc may not make that much difference.

A.  May I recommend that you look at the article I wrote:

http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ht ... 571#p37571

B. get sufficient sleep  (many will need at least 8 hours).

C.  Some cardio (unless you have already trashed your adrenals--use common sense and go by how you feel) can help because it will make you tired and help you sleep.  It will also slow down your mind and the mind is the source of much stress i.e. worries over touching whatever piece of paper you were worried about earlier in this thread.

Your worrying over things will do much more harm than a lot (if not most) of the things you are concerned about.

D.  Stop reading info about things to be worried about.

E:  Do not even think about getting you hormones checked out.

NOTE WELL: I wrote  The odds of finding a hormone problem in a 30s male with no symptoms are slim to none.

Do you have no sex drive (or nipple discharge or male boobs)?


F.  If you have not had a physical in say a year, get a general physical with a GOOD COMPETENT INTERNIST.  S/he can examine you and alleviate at least some of your concerns.

[Gumby]

Thanks, Benko. I appreciate it. As I said, I feel fine, so I guess I'm fine. I really wasn't that "worried" about it. I was just curious more than anything else.

Generally, how does one benefit from meditation if you rarely ever feel "stressed"? For me, I think I just need to get more sleep each night.

[MediumTex]

I went to the doctor a couple of months ago because I felt poorly overall (no energy, no motivation, no focus, etc).  I told him I didn't want an antidepressant (they make me feel crazy), I didn't want a downer (they make me feel sleepy) and I didn't want an upper (they make me feel nervous).

Having eliminated 90% of his prescription options, he had blood and urine work done for everything imaginable and said everything looked fine except my testosterone was low (it was less than half the desired level).  He prescribed one of the topical gels and I have been on it for two months now.

It has been the most amazing transformation of my adult life.  I feel better in every way imaginable--physically, mentally, emotionally, just overall I feel more alive.

I think that a lot of men are probably taking antidepressants when testosterone replacement therapy would give them a much better outcome (assuming, of course, that low T is their problem).

Having tried different antidepressant and similar medications over the years with consistently bad results, it's really nice to be able to be a satisfied consumer (for now anyway) of a drug that actually makes me feel better.

I know that low T is very trendy (and profitable) right now, but all I can say is that I am very satisfied with the results.

[Benko]

Mt,

Are you in your 30s?  That was the context of my comments (well that and no symptoms, which you did have).  40s and older are a very different story and not the situation that Gumby is in.

If your T was low, did you get your prolactin checked (if not, you should).  COmpound lifts e.g. squats will raise the T of many (though far from all).

Taking test can certainly be helpful though it is not a panacea.

[Gumby]

Are you in your 30s?  That was the context of my comments (well that and no symptoms, which you did have).  40s and older are a very different story and not the situation that Gumby is in.

I do feel fine and "healthy" but now that MT mentions it, I will admit that I don't have the stamina or mental focus that I used to have ten years ago. But, then again, who does?

For me, I plan to sleep more and lift more. If I could just find time time...

I sort of assume my T is low (from ~7 hours of sleep/night and hardly any lifting), but, as you say... that's fatherhood. I figured getting a saliva test would motivate me to work out more and get more sleep. But, I could see how it could have negative consequences.

[MediumTex]

Mt,

Are you in your 30s?  That was the context of my comments (well that and no symptoms, which you did have).  40s and older are a very different story and not the situation that Gumby is in.

42.

I was just sharing my experience in general since the topic came up.  I agree that if you feel fine there isn't any reason to worry about T levels.

If your T was low, did you get your prolactin checked (if not, you should).  COmpound lifts e.g. squats will raise the T of many (though far from all).

I don't recall.  My doctor is really good and he works in a practice that is really good near a hospital that is really good, so I feel that I am in good hands.

The interesting thing about squats and other weight exercises is that if you simply don't feel like going to the gym it doesn't really matter whether they would help or not.  Since I've been on the T, however, I feel stronger and thus I enjoy resistance training more, which makes me feel even stronger.  In many ways the T supplement is like a catalyst for me doing things that naturally enhance my T levels.

Taking test can certainly be helpful though it is not a panacea.

It certainly feels like a panacea.

I'm just sharing this experience because it might be helpful for someone else.  Obviously, this is something that many men would prefer not to talk about.

[MediumTex]

I do feel fine and "healthy" but now that MT mentions it, I will admit that I don't have the stamina or mental focus that I used to have ten years ago. But, then again, who does?

I feel 15 years younger in every way.

Seriously.

One of the things I have noticed is that my recovery time from almost any workout is now incredibly fast.  Where something would leave me sore for days before, I now rarely feel more than a little soreness for a day or so, and more often I feel no soreness at all even from very intense workouts.

I completely understand the attraction that elite athletes have to this sort of thing because it does provide an obvious performance advantage.

[Gumby]

I feel 15 years younger in every way.

Seriously.

One of the things I have noticed is that my recovery time from almost any workout is now incredibly fast.  Where something would leave me sore for days before, I now rarely feel more than a little soreness for a day or so, and more often I feel no soreness at all even from very intense workouts.

I completely understand the attraction that elite athletes have to this sort of thing because it does provide an obvious performance advantage.

Good to know. I think I will consider testing my T when I'm in my 40s, for sure. I'll work on trying to take care of myself in the meantime (sleep/lifting).

[MediumTex]

I feel 15 years younger in every way.

Seriously.

One of the things I have noticed is that my recovery time from almost any workout is now incredibly fast.  Where something would leave me sore for days before, I now rarely feel more than a little soreness for a day or so, and more often I feel no soreness at all even from very intense workouts.

I completely understand the attraction that elite athletes have to this sort of thing because it does provide an obvious performance advantage.

Good to know. I think I will consider testing my T when I'm in my 40s, for sure. I'll work on trying to take care of myself in the meantime (sleep/lifting).

I think that what will happen over time is that men will begin taking testosterone just to maintain a younger person's hormone levels, whether they are actually low for their age or not.  It will be sort of like Viagra, where many people who take it do so because they like it more than because they need it.

But yes, it is certainly one more BIG reason to lift weights, get enough sleep and maintain a good diet.

One of the insights I have gained as I have gotten older is that death catches up with us in increments, and we often don't even realize what's happening it is so subtle.  I think that often by the time an old person "officially" dies, it's easy to see that they have been 80-90% dead for years.  If you can't think clearly, if you can't feel desire and act on it, if you can't perceive the world accurately through your senses, if you can't think about reality in creative ways and if you can't laugh at all of the funny things around us, I think that you are already partially dead.  I think that many of these incremental steps toward death are triggered by hormone changes that are driven by our evolutionary-optimized bodies that are designed to live just long enough to promote the survival of the overall species.

[Gumby]

One of the insights I have gained as I have gotten older is that death catches up with us in increments, and we often don't even realize what's happening it is so subtle.  I think that often by the time an old person "officially" dies, it's easy to see that they have been 80-90% dead for years.  If you can't think clearly, if you can't feel desire and act on it, if you can't perceive the world accurately through your senses, if you can't think about reality in creative ways and if you can't laugh at all of the funny things around us, I think that you are already partially dead.  I think that many of these incremental steps toward death are triggered by hormone changes that are driven by our evolutionary-optimized bodies that are designed to live just long enough to promote the survival of the overall species.

Man, that's pretty depressing. 

Though, in a way, it sort of sounds like you found a few drops of the fountain of youth.

I find it interesting that our evolutionary hormones seem to be somewhat thrown by modern life. Yes, the human body is incredibly adaptable and flexible... but what I mean is, aside from endocrine disruptors, that from an evolutionary standpoint our hormones have reacted to specifically timed daylight, darkness and the change of seasons for millions of years. Yet, in our modern world, we have access to artificial light (specifically blue wavelengths) around the clock that screws up our evolutionary cortisol rhythms (i.e. staring into an iPad or TV/monitor during the evening). It wreaks havoc on the body over time. In a way, it's rather difficult to experience the evolutionary circadian rhythm.

Here's an example of a somewhat modern take of the circadian rhythm

[align=center][/align]

But, historians and researchers have uncovered that before there was artificial (blue) light, people used to have two periods of sleep at night. It's known as "Segmented Sleep". People would go to sleep shortly after sundown and wake up around 1-2am and then go back to sleep till the morning. You can find evidence of this in historical texts. When researchers take subjects and remove artificial light from their environments, they tend to revert back to that evolutionary pattern of two sets of sleeps. That would be pretty cool to experience, but I doubt I'll ever try it.

[MediumTex]

Gumby,

On the subject of light and our natural rhythms, it's always interesting to me when you get away from the city at night just how DARK it really is.

A person in the city can easily never experience the profound darkness that you get at night away from artificial sources of light.

I love experiencing this kind of darkness because it is so unusual for me based on where I live.

In my particular neighborhood, we have street lights in front of and behind our house, so it never comes close to being all that dark where I live.