Rebalancing... Hormones?

[Lone Wolf]

If you look at the reviews, you'll notice that many of the users of these $8 glasses are experiencing some major melatonin surges. You put those babies on and before long you feel like turning in for the night without the usual cortisol interference.

Ha!  I am loving the idea of these glasses... but I'm not sure that I could stand the looks from my wife if I popped these on from the early evening until bedtime.  LOL.

Still, these look awesome and I think I'll definitely pick up a pair.  If nothing else, I think it would make sense to wear them when I'm awake during my segmented sleep.  Even though I keep the light very low, why not limit my exposure to the blue wavelengths?  Thanks for the idea!

Well, it turns out that when people are living without any sort of artificial light at all, they sleep twice every night. They go to bed around 8:00 p.m. until midnight and then again, they sleep from about 2:00 a.m. until sunrise. And in-between, they have a couple of hours of sort of meditative quiet in bed. And during this time, there's a surge of prolactin, the likes of which a modern day never sees. The people in these studies report feeling so awake during the daytime, that they realize they're experiencing true wakefulness for the first time in their lives.

That sounds amazing.  That schedule makes my wimpy little 30 minutes of early morning wakefulness sound kind of pitiful.    The world has changed so much since the days where segmented sleep was universal.  The road back to that level of segmented sleep can only be walked by the very determined.  I will be sure to check out that TED talk!

Virtually all of us are 99% asleep because we are not present to our lives i.e. :

I completely agree.  Tibetan Dream Yoga (a several thousand-year-old form of yoga that focuses primarily on lucid dreaming) emphasizes the concepts that your article describes so well.  Thanks, BTW -- that's a short but excellent read.

We spend a great deal of our mental energy being whipped back and forth by our emotions as if they were real things.  Dream yoga teaches (correctly, IMO) that our emotions are nothing more than dreams.  They have no form, and they begin and end entirely inside of our minds.  If we are fooled into thinking that they are real, is it any surprise we are fooled into believing that our nighttime dreams are real?

In other words, the path to awareness in the nighttime is laid when we're aware in the daytime.  As you point out, that's a rare thing in the modern age.  Compounding this is the fact that the awareness-raising practice of segmented sleep has also fallen by the wayside.

[Gumby]

Ha!  I am loving the idea of these glasses... but I'm not sure that I could stand the looks from my wife if I popped these on from the early evening until bedtime.  LOL.

I had the exact same thought. Funny how our brains are different. I think it would be cool. She thinks it would be weird. (She's probably right).

But, I really hope someone here tries it out and reports back. Supposedly there is a snowball effect in that it takes a few days to get in the routine and get the hormone surges rolling.

Still, these look awesome and I think I'll definitely pick up a pair.  If nothing else, I think it would make sense to wear them when I'm awake during my segmented sleep.

Even though I keep the light very low, why not limit my exposure to the blue wavelengths?  Thanks for the idea!

Yep. Supposedly any blue will have an effect, so I think the glasses would be key. And the low-blue night light should work well too (it's only $13).

I will be sure to check out that TED talk!

Actually, don't bother. The talk was like 4 minutes long and that single paragraph was the only thing I didn't already know. Still, fascinating though.

In other words, the path to awareness in the nighttime is laid when we're aware in the daytime.  As you point out, that's a rare thing in the modern age.  Compounding this is the fact that the awareness-raising practice of segmented sleep has also fallen by the wayside.

So, we might hypothesize that a lifetime of segmented sleep and heightened awakeness cycles would be producing some seriously vivid and meaningful dreams? It's no wonder people were more religious back then — people likely felt much more spiritual  with those kinds of daily experiences.

[Gumby]

And come to think of it, my most vivid dreams in my lifetime were as a child. Of course, my parents made me go to bed around 7:30pm — and I was never a fan of that at the time.

[MediumTex]

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If you look at the reviews, you'll notice that many of the users of these $8 glasses are experiencing some major melatonin surges. You put those babies on and before long you feel like turning in for the night without the usual cortisol interference.

I think those are the glasses that Craig was wearing in his YouTube PP book video.

[Lone Wolf]

So, we might hypothesize that a lifetime of segmented sleep and heightened awakeness cycles would be producing some seriously vivid and meaningful dreams? It's no wonder people were more religious back then — people likely felt much more spiritual  with those kinds of daily experiences.

Yes, that's a great point.  The most intense dreams (especially the most vivid lucid dreams) are incredibly detailed, lifelike and immersive.  I've had close to 4 dozen LDs, and the realism still shocks me sometimes.  I used to wonder why people believed so strongly that they had experienced phenomena like alien abductions, travel in the astral plane, out of body experiences, encounters with Succubi.  I don't wonder anymore.

I'll bet that in some ways it may have also been frightening.  Think of someone experiencing a particularly vivid nightmare in the middle ages.  If in a dream you experience something that you interpret as demonic, who do you turn to for help in an unenlightened world?

And come to think of it, my most vivid dreams in my lifetime were as a child. Of course, my parents made me go to bed around 7:30pm — and I was never a fan of that at the time.

Very true!  I'd never thought of that, but many children experience vivid dreams (even lots of lucid dreams) but lose the ability over time.  I'd only thought vaguely about this as being down to "kids have freer, more open minds" or some quirk of childhood brain chemistry (differences in acetylcholine sensitivity??), but never thought more about it.  Funny what a punishment early bedtimes seemed like as a kid.  Going to bed early sounds so awesome now.  The sands of time change everything. 

Speaking of acetylcholine, I'd bet that modern folk also get a lot less dietary choline.  Less consumption of eggs, butter, beef and way less consumption of things like liver probably equals a lot less dietary choline.  Low levels of choline could imply lower levels of acetycholine, and these low levels of ACh would be detrimental to intensity of REM sleep (and awareness during these periods of sleep.)  Just one more factor that would compound the effects of modern sleep habits.

[Gumby]

Speaking of acetylcholine, I'd bet that modern folk also get a lot less dietary choline.  Less consumption of eggs, butter, beef and way less consumption of things like liver probably equals a lot less dietary choline.  Low levels of choline could imply lower levels of acetycholine, and these low levels of ACh would be detrimental to intensity of REM sleep (and awareness during these periods of sleep.)  Just one more factor that would compound the effects of modern sleep habits.

Very true. Another interesting factoid about segmented sleep is that many people chose to fornicate during their wakeful period between their first and second sleep. I suppose the surge in prolactin had a lot to do with that. Almost makes you wonder if that's how our species traditionally got 'in the mood.'

[MediumTex]

I used to wonder why people believed so strongly that they had experienced phenomena like alien abductions, travel in the astral plane, out of body experiences, encounters with Succubi.  I don't wonder anymore.

Is there something I might read to help facilitate encounters with Succubi?

Maybe Succubus Encounters For Dummies.

[MediumTex]

I used to wonder why people believed so strongly that they had experienced phenomena like alien abductions, travel in the astral plane, out of body experiences, encounters with Succubi.  I don't wonder anymore.

Is there something I might read to help facilitate encounters with Succubi?

Maybe Succubus Encounters For Dummies.

So I Googled it and got this nifty exchange on Yahoo Answers:

Question: Does anyone know a way that will guaranteed a visit from succubus ?
I have tried with a seance. I have tried using an ouija board. I have not had any success. I really like to visited by a succubus. Everyone tells me it is dangerous and that they feed off my soul. I don't care. I just want the experience of a visit from a succubus. It is something I have desiring for a long time. I just wish it would happen. Can anybody help me in my quest.

Response 1:I answered you before and I am going to answer you again in much less detail. I urge you to go back a day or two to my much more elaborate explanation which will increase your chances to greatly, I would be surprised if you didn't get visited by one. Of course, there are never any guarantees.

It isn't nearly as dangerous as you would think, but it can be scary, and unpleasant.

Succubus visit people who are worn, and haggard and drained of certain chemicals that assist us with sleeping at night. Heavy stress and insomnia are a couple ways to have an experience of this type.

To drain these chemicals from your brain, you need to take lots of short naps (30-45 minutes each), and wake up completely in between (no less than 20 minutes awake time between naps). You should take these naps on your back, as this is the position in which people have such experiences about 80% of the time.

It will take a day or two of this before you will start to experience weird things. It shouldn't take more than 3 days to have a succubus all over you.

This is a very serious answer. This procedure is probably the only way you can do it, if you are not one of the fortunate people who are overwhelmed with stress and insomnia. These people experience such things frequently.

Response 2: Thanks for the answer

Response 3: Dear friend,
Greetings peace, love and light. If you have tried with seance and ouija board yet you failed then the only way is using your inner strength which believing in your own ability to summon the succubus.

The possibility is always open that needed you visualization power and focus in order to make things happened because I believe nobody out there may able to help you other then yourself. Yes I believe you can do it as you have emotion and strong desire.

Response 4: You need to go to blizzard.com and buy world of warcraft. Or, if you're up to it, use the trial version. It stops you at level 20, but that's all you need.

Pick a race you like best. Everybody is a blood elf female, so be one of them. Select "warlock" as your class. Level up to 20. You'll summon other demons on the way, an imp and a black cloud dude, but you're after the succubus, so keep going.

Once you're level 20 you'll have to do some quests, but in the end you get your succubus and all is well. She won't suck out your soul, but WoW will.
 
Response 5: Have you tried to hook up w/drunk girls @ clubs, bars, or parties? [hit it & quit it] find urself the most annoying, most sluttiest, and atleast kinda hot drunk skank u can find..usually the dumber-the better.
trust me. u will find ur succubus.
 
Response 6: I don't know, but you could, after finishing off with her, sing a song she sang to you backwards, and it would go away.
   
Source(s):
south park.

Response 7: Um...This is really dangerous and something to avoid. If you are horny, then find a living person. Really. Don't go looking for this type of headache.

Response 8: Hon, I don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't it be obvious by now? No, nobody here knows how to contact one, because nobody here wants to. You're on your own, dude.
   
Response 9: go to eros.com click the map of where your at and for 200 "roses" an hour you can have an evil witch do anything you want ok?
       
Response 10: Dress more attractive. Try a new pick-up line. Take her to a dinner and movie. And all that other good stuff.
       
Response 11: Not paying alimony has been known to draw them out.They may bring along their demonic friends the Attornubus with them
       
Response 12: I think you watch too much new age internet porn and that keeps you from getting a real female.

So there you have it.  Gotta love the internet.

[l82start]

there are some good answers in there....  4, 5 9 and 11 had me laughing

[MediumTex]

there are some good answers in there....  4, 5 9 and 11 had me laughing

The same guy posted several Succubi-related questions, the last of which involved this exchange:

Question: Is there anything I can do to attract the attention of a succubus?
I need to be visited by a succubus. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Best Answer: I see you are asking this same question again.

I am so looking forward to the day when you come back in here begging for our help to get rid of the succubus after you find out it is trying to kill you.

When this happens, I am going to LAUGH MY A-- OFF AT YOU when no one helps you.

You are such an idiot. I hope the succubus takes you to h--- with her.

[Lone Wolf]

Very true. Another interesting factoid about segmented sleep is that many people chose to fornicate during their wakeful period between their first and second sleep. I suppose the surge in prolactin had a lot to do with that. Almost makes you wonder if that's how our species traditionally got 'in the mood.'

It makes sense.  5-6 hours into sleep, REM is starting to pick up.  During REM sleep the body is sexually aroused.  As every male on this board knows, when you wake up during certain part of your sleep cycle... well, you know.  This effect is true for females as well and has nothing to do with dream content.  It's just a physiological fact of REM sleep.

So when Grog and his lovely mate Urgh wake up in this aroused state after first sleep, I'd imagine that good things are bound to happen.

Is there something I might read to help facilitate encounters with Succubi?

Maybe Succubus Encounters For Dummies.

LOL.  My answer is pretty boring compared to the Yahoo! answers one.  Some fetish this fellow's got.  It's interesting to note response #1 is clearly trying to fiddle with the questioner's sleep cycles and get him into sleep paralysis.

Let me back up.  As I mentioned before, during REM sleep the body is aroused.  In addition to this, the body is paralyzed from the neck down.  This is called "REM atonia" and prevents us from acting out our dream actions.  Normally we have no sense of this but certain individuals, particularly when very tired, will experience this atonia while they are about to fall asleep but are still awake.  This is called "sleep paralysis", and typically coincides with the onset of hypnagogic imagery.  Basically, these are hallucinations that would normally just show up as little dreamlets behind your closed eyelids as you fall asleep.

The sensation is frightening, and when trying to make sense of it, the mind is likely to conclude that you are being held down or otherwise restrained.  Furthermore, if a male has entered REM sleep, he's in a state of arousal.  So throw in hallucinations, the feeling of being held down, and a strong dash of "sexy time" feelings, and the Succubus story really writes itself.

The final piece of the puzzle is how incredibly realistic and detailed dreams can be.  That one I had to discover for myself.  The dreaming mind is an amazing engine of creation.

[Benko]

Very true. Another interesting factoid about segmented sleep is that many people chose to fornicate during their wakeful period between their first and second sleep. I suppose the surge in prolactin had a lot to do with that. Almost makes you wonder if that's how our species traditionally got 'in the mood.'

GUmby,

Prolactin decreases testosterone and decreases sex drive (speaking about men).  You can take cabergoline  to acutely decrease prolactin and increase sex drive:

http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/c ... 7.full.pdf

[MediumTex]

As every male on this board knows, when you wake up during certain part of your sleep cycle... well, you know.  This effect is true for females as well...

I guess that's what incubi are for.

For some reason I am imagining an incubus/sucubus swinger couple floating around in the ether near bedtime looking for nutritionally deficient and sleep-derived human couples to "visit."

[Gumby]

Very true. Another interesting factoid about segmented sleep is that many people chose to fornicate during their wakeful period between their first and second sleep. I suppose the surge in prolactin had a lot to do with that. Almost makes you wonder if that's how our species traditionally got 'in the mood.'

GUmby,

Prolactin decreases testosterone and decreases sex drive (speaking about men).  You can take cabergoline  to acutely decrease prolactin and increase sex drive:

http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/c ... 7.full.pdf

True. Hmm.. Guess I had it backwards. Well, perhaps the surge wore off if you were awake long enough    I guess prolactin is associated with the post-sex peacefulness/meditative state.

[MachineGhost]

Interesting. So, if one found out they had, say, low Testosterone, can't they then decide to research ways to reverse that or see a practitioner about it? I don't find a verdict like that to be particularly scary or anything. It's just information you can use to make informed decisions. Wouldn't it be better to know then to ignore a potential problem down the road? I mean, seriously, what's the big deal?

Wow, I go away for two-three days (my data drive failed) and come back to over 68 posts in this topic!  I didn't think it was going to attract so much attention.

Anyway, I think for the majority of people they will simply not have a plan for rectification if their hormones are found to be low.  It doesn't apply to someone highly aware with the ability to research the issue, such as yourself.  I think MT seems like a nice case of naivety lucking into a doctor who's rather open-minded.  That certainly is not going to be everyone's experience.

But on the other hand, you can't just replace one hormone and expect to be well forever.  Over time, it will eventually unbalance other hormones which can promote cancerific outcomes.  Pay heed, MT!  Hormone replacement is a very complex topic that no generalist is going to be an expert on unless they are driven by passion for it.

[MachineGhost]

Holy crap is right! I think you may be on to something. There is a very decent chance people were experiencing lucid dreams much more often back then. It almost implies that lucid dreaming is part of our evolutionary circadian rhythm!!

That is really astounding if that's true.

http://selfdefinition.org/psychology/Ju ... l-Mind.pdf

[MachineGhost]

But, I really hope someone here tries it out and reports back. Supposedly there is a snowball effect in that it takes a few days to get in the routine and get the hormone surges rolling.

I will buy it and compare it to the melatonin supplement.

[Benko]

But on the other hand, you can't just replace one hormone and expect to be well forever.  Over time, it will eventually unbalance other hormones which can promote cancerific outcomes.  Pay heed, MT!  Hormone replacement is a very complex topic that no generalist is going to be an expert on unless they are driven by passion for it.

I certainly second the possibly of unbalancing other hormones and thus the need for regular monitoring.  I'm not sure if the fears of possible cancer from that are right (you might be) or are overblown. 

I will say that I've never taken test replacement (I'm 52 and no idea what my levels are), but I've been tinkering with chinese tonic herbs* (under supervision of chinese herbalist) and have been very impressed with results in terms of general wellbeing, stamina, etc.

*unlike herbs taken to treat a particular condition, tonic herbs strengthen and regulate  the body's systems e.g. strengthen an underactive immune system, but calm an overactive one.

[MachineGhost]

Speaking of acetylcholine, I'd bet that modern folk also get a lot less dietary choline.  Less consumption of eggs, butter, beef and way less consumption of things like liver probably equals a lot less dietary choline.  Low levels of choline could imply lower levels of acetycholine, and these low levels of ACh would be detrimental to intensity of REM sleep (and awareness during these periods of sleep.)  Just one more factor that would compound the effects of modern sleep habits.

I've been consuming about 1500mg of choline per day during the past month (along with several long-standing choline related supplements) and can't say its had any effect on sleep at all.

[MachineGhost]

Very true. Another interesting factoid about segmented sleep is that many people chose to fornicate during their wakeful period between their first and second sleep. I suppose the surge in prolactin had a lot to do with that. Almost makes you wonder if that's how our species traditionally got 'in the mood.'

I think you got it backwards.  Testosterone puts you "in the mood".

Prolactin provides the body with sexual gratification after sexual acts: The hormone counteracts the effect of dopamine, which is responsible for sexual arousal. This is thought to cause the sexual refractory period. The amount of prolactin can be an indicator for the amount of sexual satisfaction and relaxation. Unusually high amounts are suspected to be responsible for impotence and loss of libido (see hyperprolactinemia symptoms).

[MachineGhost]

I certainly second the possibly of unbalancing other hormones and thus the need for regular monitoring.  I'm not sure if the fears of possible cancer from that are right (you might be) or are overblown. 

Well, as just one example, with 68% of American now overweight or obese, I think its all but certain "estrogen dominance" will occur in aging men.  This occurs because of increased aromatization of testosterone into estrogen as well as environmental exposure.  So by supplementing with testosterone, the problem will be made worse without also simultaneously inhibiting the aromatization.  The cancerific outcomes are mainly concentrated in imbalanced estrogen hormones & metabolites (prostate cancer, etc.), but low hormones in general per se is also cancerific.  It seems that hormones are nature's anti-cancer protectors.

[Benko]

MG,

Good point about the aromatization.  That is what I was thinking of (though it might not be good even for men to have estrogen too low).

I though you were implying that t supplementation itself might be a cancer problem (which I'm skeptical of).  I'd forgot about (what I gather is) the link of estrogen to prostate ca.

[Lone Wolf]

I will buy it and compare it to the melatonin supplement.

Have you used melatonin long-term?  I don't employ it often, and only do so in low doses (<4 mg per week), but I was curious if you had any thoughts on whether tolerance builds up over time.  I hadn't seen strong evidence of it but did run across the occasional anecdote.  I know you keep good records and do your homework.

I've been consuming about 1500mg of choline per day during the past month (along with several long-standing choline related supplements) and can't say its had any effect on sleep at all.

Interesting, thanks for the data point.  Although, were your choline levels really all that low before?  You don't strike me as the frail vegan I'd imagine as the poster child for choline deficiency.    Is your supplement one of the choline salts, like choline bitartrate or choline citrate?  Or do you use something like Alpha-GPC?

I can definitely attest that after first sleep, a high level of choline paired with an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor (such as galantamine) has a profound effect on dreaming and creates an extremely high likelihood of lucidity.  But of course that's a different ball park from eating an extra egg with breakfast. 

What has your experience been like on the very high levels of choline?  Is this part of a nootropics regimen, maybe paired up with one of the racetams?

[MachineGhost]

Have you used melatonin long-term?  I don't employ it often, and only do so in low doses (<4 mg per week), but I was curious if you had any thoughts on whether tolerance builds up over time.  I hadn't seen strong evidence of it but did run across the occasional anecdote.  I know you keep good records and do your homework.

No tolerance that I'm aware of, but I do take 2 days off a week.  I recently tried a new brand and a higher dose (750mg) than what the pineal gland releases naturally and the expected drowsiness has gone away after about a week, so maybe there is tolerance at higher than physiologic doses or the alternate brand is just weaker.  In any case, I plan to go back down to my regular dose of 250mg as that is what I'm more comfortable with.

Interesting, thanks for the data point.  Although, were your choline levels really all that low before?  You don't strike me as the frail vegan I'd imagine as the poster child for choline deficiency.    Is your supplement one of the choline salts, like choline bitartrate or choline citrate?  Or do you use something like Alpha-GPC?

Yes, I would consider myself choline deficit in that I can't eat eggs and I'm a former smoker so my brain is loaded with acetylcholine receptors.  For years I had a problem with brain fog making me effectively nonfunctional for concentration and any higher level thinking unless I was partaking of legal stimulants.  It wasn't until I discovered choline supplements that I could keep the brain fog at bay and I could get off the addicting stimulants (I have minimal tolerance now from overdoing it).  I originally tried lecithin first, but I used a weird liquid GMO source and did not feel it worked compared to targeted supplements.  I'm taking lecithin again now (non-GMO granules) because I was curious to see if there was an additive effect plus I felt I should be eating the other phospholipids that are probably missing in my diet.  And I want to experiment with making homemade liposomes.

I can definitely attest that after first sleep, a high level of choline paired with an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor (such as galantamine) has a profound effect on dreaming and creates an extremely high likelihood of lucidity.  But of course that's a different ball park from eating an extra egg with breakfast. 

Granules seem difficult to work with unless blended in a smoothie.  But I could try taking it right before bed and see what happens.

What has your experience been like on the very high levels of choline?  Is this part of a nootropics regimen, maybe paired up with one of the racetams?

I'm taking it along with CDP Choline, Huperzine A and DMAE.  I'm not sure I've noticed anything other than maybe a very minorly improved sense of well being and a little more endurance.  Certainly nothing as dramatic as the supplements.  I still have subpar short term memory and subpar working memory.  The lecithin may also have caused more of my joints to crack and pop and existing even more.  It's going to take some time to narrow down what it could be.

[Benko]

MG,

There is supposed to be some choline supplement more effective than e.g. lecithin or CDP choline.  Finally found it:

http://www.phoschol.com/faqs/#FAQ03
What is PhosChol most used for? ...

PhosChol is often recommended to:
Help manage and sustain healthy lipid levels
----Aid in Gastric Mucosa Protection – “Leaky Gut Syndrome”? brought on by the use of NSAIDs, Non Steroidal Anti Inflammatory Drugs like Ibuprofen and Naproxen

NOT A RECOMMENDATION, just FYI since it might be worth checking out.  not cheap.

For Physicians
Composition
PhosChol contains: Highly purified Essential Phospholipids (EPL) or Polyunsaturated Phosphatidylcholine / Polyenylphosphatidylcholine (PPC) (active principle: diglyceride esters of cholinephosphoric acid of natural origin, with excess of unsaturated fatty acids, predominantly linoleic acid [approximately 70%] with 1,2- dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine [(DLPC) up to 52%], linolenic acid and oleic acid).