The Permanent Supplement Regime

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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by pugchief » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:51 pm

pugchief wrote: Gumby,

Thanks for that tremendous post. I will start looking into this immediately, and post results in the future.
Gumby,

To follow up with results, I pretty much quit the H2 blockers and PPI cold turkey about a month ago, while substituting with every meal probiotics [acidophilus and/or kefir] and this acid/enzyme complex:

Image

Also, every morning I start the day with Deglycyrrhizinated Licorice to help rebuild my stomach lining.

I can report happily that I have been 95% free of heartburn or reflux, and when occasional symptoms occur, simply taking a second  acid/enzyme tablet generally gets rid of them.

I owe you a tremendous amount of respect and thanks.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Gumby » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:55 pm

Pugchief, I was just thinking about your quest the other day. That's amazing. Chalk one up for functional medicine, I guess!

Wow. Truly amazing. Congrats!
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Gumby » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:05 pm

MachineGhost wrote:I eat a low-carb, balanced fat diet restricted in inflammatory AA so its rather interesting that AA is bad as I was suspecting, but I can't see how or why it would be so high unless it is genetic?  The thing is I've experimented with different fish oil capsules or liquids over the years and have never seen a reduction in inflammation sensitivity.
Just curious, but which edible oils are you using in food preparation and how much of them would you say you use on a typical day?
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Reub » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:47 pm

Gumby, I wanted to thank you as well for recommending Crowdtilt to me.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Gumby » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:00 pm

Reub wrote: Gumby, I wanted to thank you as well for recommending Crowdtilt to me.
You bet, Reub! And congrats on tilting. Hope your dad is doing better.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by HB Reader » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:14 pm

Gumby wrote:
Reub wrote: Gumby, I wanted to thank you as well for recommending Crowdtilt to me.
You bet, Reub! And congrats on tilting. Hope your dad is doing better.
Yeah, I hope things get better for you, Reub.  Crowdtilt is pretty interesting.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Gumby » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:38 pm

MG, I have two thoughts....

My initial thought is that you may be taking too much olive oil. I seem to remember that was one of the oils you tolerated. Your Linoleic Acid levels are quite high and olive oil tends to be a high source of Omega-6 — especially Linoleic Acid. The word "Linoleic" is actually derived from "oleic" (i.e. "olive").

Chris Masterjohn sums it up this way...
Chris Masterjohn wrote:"An excess of linoleate from vegetable oil will interfere with the production of DHA while an excess of EPA from fish oil will interfere with the production and utilization of AA"
Source: http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/P ... eport.html
Take a look at the following sources of Linoleic acid...

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linoleic_a ... ry_sources

As you will notice in that Wikipedia link, Olive Oil is relatively high compared to coconut oil, which has much less LA in it.

So, Coconut oil is low in Omega-6, and has no Omega-3 (a good thing when using heat). From Dr. Mary Newport (the Alzheimer's coconut-research doc):
Dr. Mary Newport wrote:"Olive oil is about 10% omega-6 and has a 13:1 ratio,and by the way, olive oil is not all mono-unsaturated fat and has about 14% long chain saturated fats. My favorite, coconut oil, is about 4% omega-6 and has no omega-3."
Source: http://coconutketones.blogspot.com/2009 ... acids.html
My second thought is that the Flax Oil did you absolutely no good. Supposedly less than 5% of ALA gets converted to EPA, and less than 0.5% (one-half of one percent) of ALA is converted to DHA.

See: http://chriskresser.com/why-fish-stomps ... of-omega-3

So, my guess is that when you use olive oil and flax oil together, the olive oil competes with the flax oil for the same enzymes and the olive oil ends up being more efficient at converting to AA than the flax oil is at converting to EPA and DHA.

What do you think? Sound plausible?

I'd be willing to bet that the switch to Fish Oil is helping a lot. But, my sense is that you don't want to take too much fish oil for fear of it oxidizing. I believe Chris Masterjohn only recommends something like 1 gram per day at most for maintenance and low oxidation. His findings are in his PUFA report that is probably worth reading (for a fee):

See: http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/P ... eport.html
Last edited by Gumby on Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:36 am

Gumby wrote: Just curious, but which edible oils are you using in food preparation and how much of them would you say you use on a typical day?
Just EVOO, about 1-3T.  I use nothing else since it is too inflammatory or toxic.  Additional sources of LA would be the 1/4 cup of raw almonds, 2T of raw flaxseed meal and more recently, 1T of non-GMO lecithin.

I am not sure yet but I may be able to tolerate pasteurized grass-fed butter, unlike the grass-fed ghee.  I will have to do a food challenge test to be 100% sure.

I don't really see a realistic solution other than ingesting some seriously large amounts of fish oil for a very long time.  I wonder what the average Japanese daily intake of EPA/DHA is.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:19 am

Gumby wrote: What do you think? Sound plausible?
Hmm it's plausible, but I'm not sure if its applicable.  For me, unrefined EVOO is inert, but there is a clear threshold where too much LA or AA from any source causes inflammation, whether that be refined or unrefined.  I don't take the flaxseed meal for the ALA, but for the lignans.

Here's the problem though.  The RDA for LA is 17 grams a day, so the almonds, the lecithin, the flaxseed meal, a krill oil capsule, and 3T of EVOO:

Lipids (51%)
===========================================
Saturated            |    8.4 g      42%
  Omega-3            |    4.0 g      252%
  Omega-6            |    10.4 g      61%
Cholesterol          |    0.0 mg      0%

...don't even get me to it.  Now add in 15 grams (3x a serving) of cod liver oil:

Lipids (57%)
===========================================
Saturated            |    11.5 g      57%
  Omega-3            |    6.9 g      434%
  Omega-6            |    10.5 g      62%
Cholesterol          |    30.2 mg      10%

...before solid food increases the Omega-6 even more.  1 gram of unconcentrated fish oil just isn't going to cut it (1.3 grams of that Omega-3 is ALA).  I only take 550mg EPA/DHA now since krill oil is worthless for raising serum levels and I'm skeptical spending a lot on fish oil that has no detectable benefit.

The almonds contain almost as much LA in just 1 ounce as in 3T of EVOO.  But again, we're not talking about high levels of intake here to begin with.

If there is some formula for determining the "potency" of Omega-3 vs Omega-6 on a weight basis, I'm all eyes.

What I can do eventually is replace the flaxseed meal with a lignan supplement (oh joy, another freakin' pill!) and see if I can replace the EVOO with refined coconut oil for cooking and grass-fed butter for veggies, etc..  For now I will double or triple up the concentrated, elephant-sized fish oil gelcap, but my gag reflex won't tolerate that for the long-term.  So, I'll be trying the expensive LEF version when I run out; they've apparantely reduced the size by using regular capsules instead of gelcaps, plus they're still the only brand including sesame seed extract to prevent oxidization.  Not sure its worth the money, but a smaller capsule size and no corresponding increase in the quantity to take would be a huge win.  Actually, I should try it out now using that $25 credit and member pricing!

Speaking of which, if anyone would like a free 1-month membership (discount pricing but is not as good as Amazon, etc.) and a $25 product credit at LEF, enter this contest:

https://mycart.lef.org/Sweeps/E/Entry.a ... gn=SWH203W
Last edited by MachineGhost on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Gumby » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:59 am

Ah, ok. So, eating lots of LA isn't supposed to raise AA, since the tissues levels of AA plateau at low levels of LA according to Masterjohn. (Again, purchase his report if you want to read more about this).

So, it seems clear that the Flax Oil is what screwed up your numbers. Humans — especially those who have compromised digestive systems — are pretty much unable to convert any ALA into DHA/EPA. So, you have to assume that the fish oil will help significantly. Check your numbers again in 6 months from when you started taking fish oil.

As I'm sure you are aware, the best way to improve the Omega 3:6 ratio is to eat less Omega 6...

How much omega-3 is enough? That depends on omega-6

And, then there is eating fish to consider — as well as its absorption...

The fish vs. fish oil smackdown
MachineGhost wrote:What I can do eventually is replace the flaxseed meal with a lignan supplement (oh joy, another freakin' pill!)
Isn't Lignan a phytoestrogen? ALA does you no good as far as I can see (beyond some unproven cancer reduction). Our bodies really can't convert any ALA to DHA/EPA. Studies have shown that ALA consumption doesn't raise serum levels of DHA/EPA. This is why many researchers now believe that the largest health benefits we get from omega-3 fats come from the longer chain derivatives, such as EPA/DHA.
MachineGhost wrote:I can replace the EVOO with refined coconut oil for cooking and grass-fed butter for veggies, etc.
If you want to try eating less LA, you should seriously think about Pharmaceutical Grade MCT oil (sold by Dr. Bernd Friedlander). It's the same MCT oil that Dave Asprey sells. The oil is just a high-quality filtered coconut oil where they filter coconut oil down to the capric & caprylic acids. You should definitely be able to tolerate that if you start with teaspoon doses and it's amazing brain food (as explained by Dr. Mary Newport). Many people swear by MCT oil, not only for its affect on the brain, but for the way it enhances the flavor of food. On its own, it has no taste. I just ordered my first bottle the other day (new shipments expected in the next two weeks). People say you can drizzle it on a salad and it makes the salad taste amazing. Brush it on top of sushi and you won't believe how good it tastes. And you can cook with it up to ~350º. You can also rub it onto scars and it will heal them quite quickly. Now Foods also makes a good MCT oil, but I don't know if it's pharmaceutical grade and I don't think it's as high in capric & caprylic acids as the pharmaceutical grade MCT oil.
MachineGhost wrote:For now I will double or triple up the concentrated, elephant-sized fish oil gelcap, but my gag reflex won't tolerate that for the long-term.
Your body won't tolerate that long term either (due to oxidation), so only use it to adjust your levels. Your best bet seems to be to reduce n-6 during this time as well and avoid ALA for its inefficiency.
Last edited by Gumby on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:02 pm

Good article.  So essentially, 1T of fish oil is necessary to get a 60% tissue concentration of EPA/DHA equivalent to the Japanese, and even that is not as ideal as old-school Eskimos or Greenlanders which is really extreme (they do tend to die of hemmorhaging-type deaths).  1T also appears enough to offset the typical S.A.D. LA intake.  Considering I'm even higher than that, I feel more confident about such a dosage now.
Leaving aside taste considerations, I think eating that much fish is neither fun nor affordable.  But he does bring up a good point of absorption.  I would never take an esthyl ester form of fish oil as it is unstable and not the natural state found in fish (triglycerides).  The latter is not as common in the marketplace nor necessarily inexpensive or concentrated, but it can be found.  I haven't updated it in a year or more, but I maintain a spreadsheet comparing many different forms and brands of fish oil as to the net absorption kinetics of EPA/DHA vs its cost.
Gumby wrote: Isn't Lignan a phytoestrogen? ALA does you no good as far as I can see (beyond some unproven
Yes, but its not a bad phytoestrogen.  It helps detoxify harmful estrogens to protect the prostate.  Since prostate BPH/cancer starts in men in their 30's, its not something to only worry about only when it becomes a serious problem 35+ years later (by which time its too late!).  Aside for helping to thicken my smoothies a bit, I don't think I'll miss it.  I'll keep the remaining on hand to continue to use as an egg replacer.
Gumby wrote: If you want to try eating less LA, you should seriously think about Pharmaceutical Grade MCT oil (sold by Dr. Bernd Friedlander). It's the same MCT oil that Dave Asprey sells. The oil is just a high-quality filtered coconut oil where they filter coconut oil down to the capric & caprylic acids. You should definitely be able to tolerate that if you start with teaspoon doses and it's
2
I'm familiar with MCT oil since it provides ketones for a glucose-intolerant brain -- very useful for ameliorating Alzheimer's Disease.  I am hypersensitive to tiny amounts of MCT though, get liver pain and/or naseua.  However for sake of the argument, why would I want to give up the medium-chain saturates that make coconut oil healthy and temperature stable for cooking?  And what about the missing lauric acid which is a large part of coconut oil's benefits?  AFAIK, caprylic acid is just useful against candida overgrowth in the vagina or intestine.
Gumby wrote: amazing brain food (as explained by Dr. Mary Newport). Many people swear by MCT oil, not only for its affect on the brain, but for the way it enhances the flavor of food. On its own, it has no taste. I just ordered my first bottle the other day (new shipments expected in the next two weeks). People say you can drizzle it on a salad and it makes the salad taste amazing. Brush it on top of sushi and you won't believe how good it tastes. And you can cook with it up to
Are you sure there's no MSG/umami involved with this?  Foodstuffs does not just normally "taste better" without that kind of neurotoxin involved.
Gumby wrote: Your body won't tolerate that long term either (due to oxidation), so only use it to adjust your levels. Your best bet seems to be to reduce n-6 during this time as well and avoid ALA for its inefficiency.
Yessir!  But, you do realize how very little LA I'm already eating to begin with?  Sheesh.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Gumby » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

MachineGhost wrote:Considering I'm even higher than that, I feel more confident about such a dosage now.
Yes. Should be fine as you even things out over the short term.

Btw, in 2010, Masterjohn wrote a great piece on the dangers of too much fish oil...

Chris Masterjohn: Precious Yet Perilous

Kresser gets a lot of his EFA recommendations from Masterjohn, and Kresser passed the info along to his readers here a few weeks later...

Chris Kresser: When it comes to fish oil, more is not better

Definitely read the piece from Masterjohn, but keep in mind that he's updated some of his findings in his PUFA report this year (which I haven't read).
MachineGhost wrote:Leaving aside taste considerations, I think eating that much fish is neither fun nor affordable.
In terms of affordability, wild fish is certainly more expensive. But, I've recently become a fan of Faroe Island farmed salmon. It's much more affordable, but it's nothing like other farmed salmon. Definitely worth researching as it is sustainable and about as good as farmed can be. Eat fish two or three times a week and you're in good shape.

In terms of taste, well you need to make it taste good. One really needs to find a way to incorporate more seafood in the diet in order to balance Omega 3:6 in today's high n-6 world without overdosing on fish oil. Personally, I've really enjoyed Rick Stein's Complete Seafood cookbook. Great photos, steps and relatively easy recipes.
MachineGhost wrote:But he does bring up a good point of absorption.  I would never take an esthyl ester form of fish oil as it is unstable and not the natural state found in fish (triglycerides).  The latter is not as common in the marketplace nor necessarily inexpensive or concentrated, but it can be found.  I haven't updated it in a year or more, but I maintain a spreadsheet comparing many different forms and brands of fish oil as to the net absorption kinetics of EPA/DHA vs its cost.
He has a great post on the top fish oils he recommends...

Chris Kresser: The definitive fish oil buyer’s guide
MachineGhost wrote:Yes, but its not a bad phytoestrogen.  It helps detoxify harmful estrogens to protect the prostate.  Since prostate BPH/cancer starts in men in their 30's, its not something to only worry about only when it becomes a serious problem 35+ years later (by which time its too late!).  Aside for helping to thicken my smoothies a bit, I don't think I'll miss it.  I'll keep the remaining on hand to continue to use as an egg replacer.
Got it. Good to know.
MachineGhost wrote:I'm familiar with MCT oil since it provides ketones for a glucose-intolerant brain -- very useful for ameliorating Alzheimer's Disease.  I am hypersensitive to tiny amounts of MCT though, get liver pain and/or naseua.
I've heard that some MCT oils are derived from canola oil. Not sure how they could do that (since canola oil doesn't really have MCTs in it, afaik). Anyway, a good MCT oil should be only derived from coconut oil. And whether you buy MCT oil or coconut oil, they need to be "Direct Micro Expelling" (DME) coconut oils. DME is a cold process and requires fresh coconuts that aren't dried and stored in moldy warehouses.

My sense is that you just needed to start with a smaller dose of coconut oil or MCT oil and work your way up to whatever amount you want to tolerate. Dr. Mary Newport explains in her FAQ on Alzheimers...
Dr. Mary Newport wrote:If you take too much oil too fast, you may experience indigestion, cramping or diarrhea.  To avoid these symptoms, take with food and start with 1 teaspoon coconut oil or MCT oil per meal, increasing slowly as tolerated over a week or longer. If diarrhea develops drop back to the previous level. For most people, the goal would be to increase gradually to 4-6 tablespoons a day, depending on the size of the person, spread over 2-4 meals.  Mixing MCT oil and coconut oil could provide higher levels and a steady level of ketones. One formula is to mix 16 ounces MCT oil plus 12 ounces coconut oil in a quart jar and increase slowly as tolerated, starting with 1 teaspoon.  This mixture will stay liquid at room temperature.

Source: http://www.coconutketones.com/
MachineGhost wrote:However for sake of the argument, why would I want to give up the medium-chain saturates that make coconut oil healthy and temperature stable for cooking?  And what about the missing lauric acid which is a large part of coconut oil's benefits?  AFAIK, caprylic acid is just useful against candida overgrowth in the vagina or intestine.
I only recommended MCT oil in the off chance that the pharmaceutical grade MCT oil is high enough quality to avoid a reaction to whatever was in the last batch of coconut oil you tried. People use one or the other for different effects. For instance, Dr. Newport recommends a combination of MCT oil and coconut oil for Alzheimer's.
MachineGhost wrote:Are you sure there's no MSG/umami involved with this?  Foodstuffs does not just normally "taste better" without that kind of neurotoxin involved.
Yeah. I'm 99% sure. It's an odd phenomenon with those medium chains. Nobody seems to know why it happens just yet. And some people have noticed flavor enhancing properties with coconut oil as well. The people who recommend MCTs are well aware of the dangers of MSG — particularly those with brain problems who rely on the benefits of MCTs.
MachineGhost wrote:
Gumby wrote: Your body won't tolerate that long term either (due to oxidation), so only use it to adjust your levels. Your best bet seems to be to reduce n-6 during this time as well and avoid ALA for its inefficiency.
Yessir!  But, you do realize how very little LA I'm already eating to begin with?  Sheesh.
Yeah, and I'm no longer worried about your LA after realizing that too much LA shouldn't raise AA levels. My mistake. I was thrown by the blood test saying your LA was high. I guess high LA doesn't really matter in terms of AA, but maybe it matters in terms of oxidation? No idea. I suppose, for all we know, the test could have been inaccurate.

Anyway, I really believe it was the inefficiency of Flax oil to EPA/DHA that screwed up your numbers. My guess is you'll be fine in a few months now that you're on the right track.
Last edited by Gumby on Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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