The Permanent Supplement Regime

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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:23 am

It was iron fortification!
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by l82start » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:35 am

Pointedstick wrote: It was iron fortification!
thanks...  suffering from post holiday brain fog (i bet it was a discussion i saw here too --duh)
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Dozha » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:07 pm

There was some recent discussion about Berberine and Metformin, I thought under this subject, but I couldn't find it.  However, I want to put this info out there.  It's from Jenny Ruhl's blog on managing diabetes, Blood Sugar 101.  The info doesn't seem to be there anymore, but I printed it out when I first saw it because my doc was suggesting I get off Metformin and start taking Berberine.  (Because all things Asian are so cool.)

FDA/NCTA [National Center for Toxicology Research] scientists in collaboration with Shanghai Institute for Food and Drug Control (China) have shown that goldenseal and one of its major alkaloid constitutents,  Berberine, are potent producers of DNA damage in in vitro human cell cultures.  In cells treated with goldenseal, the extent of DNA damage was correlated to the Berberine content and was directly associated with inhibition of topoisomerase II (an essential enzyme for DNA replication).  Goldenseal . . . was shown to increase liver tumors in rodents in a National Toxicology Program two-year carcinogenicity study.  However, the mechanism for liver carcinogenity was not determined in this study [but see below re incretin drugs].  ... In addition, DNA damage was also observed in cells treated with commercially available goldenseal extracts and the extent of DNA damage was positively correlated to the berberine content. 

A commenter on the blog noted that Berberine is thought to mimic the incretin effect. [Whatever that is; I didn't research it]  Ruhl replied "If it really mimics the incretin effect, you have to hope it isn't doing what we now know the incretin drugs are doing:  growing highly abnormal alpha and beta cells in the pancreas including tiny adenoma tumors.  ...What studies are cited for Berberine are published in marginal journals, some of which may be the kind you can get any paper into if you pay a fee.  Supplement sellers routinely fund this kind of research. . . .  Remember that there is NO legal requirement that supplement bottles contain the label says they contain.  The FDA only intervenes after someone dies . . . ." 

She also comments, Why not stick with cheap, generic, effective metformin?  I would say also, if you haven't done it already why not buy a cheap glucomenter from Walmart and start testing after every meal and just reduce carbohydrates as needed to get to normal post-prandial numbers and to an A1c in the 5's.  If reducing carbs doesn't work, go for metformin  in conjunction with low carb. 

If metformin causes gastro distress you can try the non-generic form Glucophage, but it's expensive. What worked for me was to get the lowest dose generic pill in the non-extended release form so I could cut it half.  Took 1/2 tab every third day until I felt no discomfort.  Very slowly decreased time between and then increased the dose.  Took a while but it was worth it.  some people think that metformin works by altering gut biome, thus the discomfort while you adapt. Once adapted you can use the extended release form. 

Test B12 levels and supplement if they get low, or eat liver once a week. Other offal and oysters are good sources too. 

You can find the abstract of this study in Toxicology Letters (2013; 221: 64-72)
For additional info,contact Lei Guo, Division of Biochemical Toxicology, FDA/NCTR. 
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Benko » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:22 pm

Dozha wrote:
FDA/NCTA [National Center for Toxicology Research] scientists in collaboration with Shanghai Institute for Food and Drug Control (China) have shown that goldenseal and one of its major alkaloid constitutents,  Berberine, are potent producers of DNA damage in in vitro human cell cultures.
Lots of things cause cancer in cell cultures which don't in humans to the point studies on cell culture are useless for this purpose.  Don't believe me, look up berberine at examine.com a site which is very well done and which tabulates all the studies on any given topic and reviews what is and is not supported by the data.

The posts you are looking for are in this subforum in a thread about metformin
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by dualstow » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:37 pm

Excellent Frontline program on supplements aired tonight -- when is Frontline not excellent? --
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/artic ... he-bottle/
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Benko » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:24 am

dualstow wrote: Excellent Frontline program on supplements aired tonight -- when is Frontline not excellent? --
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/artic ... he-bottle/
"...tough questions about how vitamins and supplements are marketed and regulated, and examines how it’s often hard to know what’s really in the bottles you’re buying."

These comments are repeated regularly by the media.  Perhaps if you buy supps in the drugstrore, but if you buy  any number of high quality supps e.g. jarrow is one good brand, this is not true.
Last edited by Benko on Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Reub » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:32 am

There is certainly a vendetta against supplement use.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by dualstow » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:53 am

Reub wrote: There is certainly a vendetta against supplement use.
I swear to God you're my dad. He just emailed a response including "f the New York Times and PBS anyway."
I'm going to get to the bottom of this.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Benko » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:58 am

dualstow wrote:
Reub wrote: There is certainly a vendetta against supplement use.
I swear to God you're my dad. He just emailed a response including "f the New York Times and PBS anyway."
I'm going to get to the bottom of this.
Dealstow,

It is likely we've had this same conversation before.  Search the board and MG and I have probably chimed in with a number of brands that are reliable.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by dualstow » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:37 am

Yes, it does sound familiar, Beanko.

For what it's worth, one of the guys in the documentary who was investigating fraud is himself a big believer in supplements. And I myself am not a disbeliever. I am just suspicious of the people who put the pills together in the first place. Why? Because it's unregulated in the States. I realize that this is a very libertarian forum, but I like the idea of someone watching the vitamin makers since I don't have a lab to see what's in my pills.

As it happens, I bought my first vitamins in a long time last week. The brand is Rainbow Light. I figured there were enough reviews and enough time had passed that there probably aren't steroids or ragweed in the pills. One Amazon reviewer even put the pills in a device called a "stomacher" at work to see if they broke down properly. They did.

My parents take fish oil pills, and I am not about to stop them. Still, it was a bit disconcerting to learn how quickly the oil can go rancid if oxygen gets in once the anchovies are crushed. (Shrug).

Again, I'm all for supplements. I just think a lot of people are out there willing to make a fast buck at the expense of our dollars at the least, and our health at the worst. And if they aren't regulated, who's to stop them?
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Reub » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:50 pm

dualstow wrote:
Reub wrote: There is certainly a vendetta against supplement use.
I swear to God you're my dad. He just emailed a response including "f the New York Times and PBS anyway."
I'm going to get to the bottom of this.
Now go to your room or I'll cut you out of my will for sure!
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by dualstow » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:00 pm

Reub wrote: Now go to your room or I'll cut you out of my will for sure!
Sounds like someone's a little low on Riboflavin..
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