The Permanent Supplement Regime

[Benko]

There is certainly a vendetta against supplement use.

I swear to God you're my dad. He just emailed a response including "f the New York Times and PBS anyway."
I'm going to get to the bottom of this.

Dealstow,

It is likely we've had this same conversation before.  Search the board and MG and I have probably chimed in with a number of brands that are reliable.

[dualstow]

Yes, it does sound familiar, Beanko.

For what it's worth, one of the guys in the documentary who was investigating fraud is himself a big believer in supplements. And I myself am not a disbeliever. I am just suspicious of the people who put the pills together in the first place. Why? Because it's unregulated in the States. I realize that this is a very libertarian forum, but I like the idea of someone watching the vitamin makers since I don't have a lab to see what's in my pills.

As it happens, I bought my first vitamins in a long time last week. The brand is Rainbow Light. I figured there were enough reviews and enough time had passed that there probably aren't steroids or ragweed in the pills. One Amazon reviewer even put the pills in a device called a "stomacher" at work to see if they broke down properly. They did.

My parents take fish oil pills, and I am not about to stop them. Still, it was a bit disconcerting to learn how quickly the oil can go rancid if oxygen gets in once the anchovies are crushed. (Shrug).

Again, I'm all for supplements. I just think a lot of people are out there willing to make a fast buck at the expense of our dollars at the least, and our health at the worst. And if they aren't regulated, who's to stop them?

[Reub]

There is certainly a vendetta against supplement use.

I swear to God you're my dad. He just emailed a response including "f the New York Times and PBS anyway."
I'm going to get to the bottom of this.

Now go to your room or I'll cut you out of my will for sure!

[dualstow]

Now go to your room or I'll cut you out of my will for sure!

Sounds like someone's a little low on Riboflavin..

[MediumTex]

Now go to your room or I'll cut you out of my will for sure!

Sounds like someone's a little low on Riboflavin..

You mean reuboflavin?

[dualstow]

You mean reuboflavin?

Ahhahahhaaha! 

[Reub]

I might have to patent that word for later use.

[MachineGhost]

I've been noticing that I'm chronically deficient in potassium intake, even if I have two bananas and some potatoes, which is not the case every day (very rarely in fact).

Anyone have any advice on how to get more?  Just buy a supplement?  Oddly, it isn't in my multivitamin.

Search for The Permanent Rehydration Water thread or something.  That's how I deal with it after trying various methods (2 cups upon wakeup and another 2C before the sauna).  Potassium is some nasty tasting stuff to use as a salt substitute and it really doesn't work.

[MachineGhost]

By the way, I used to eat cereal all the time, and I have a question.... I realize there are a lot of grainy/sugary/dairy-y reasons to not like cereal, but I rarely hear from anti-cereal folks even the slightest credit given to the fact that they are vitamin & mineral fortified.  I realize supplements are NOT perfect, and in the case of iron and others, can sometimes be dangerous, but I notice that when I take my multivitamin, even with lots of food, my urine turns colors.  My Total Raisin Bran never did that to me, nor did it taste funny.  Does anyone here want to comment on vitamin/mineral fortification in foods?  Is it better/worse than just taking a multivitamin with a fatty meal?

It's garbage/junx unbonded/unchelated synthetic vitamins and inorganic minerals.  Not even remotely what is in a real food matrix.  Also, sometimes they only dose to a fraction of the RDA compared to a multi-vitamin/mineral.  The RDA is a joke to begin with but a fraction might as well be fairy dust.

[MachineGhost]

FDA/NCTA [National Center for Toxicology Research] scientists in collaboration with Shanghai Institute for Food and Drug Control (China) have shown that goldenseal and one of its major alkaloid constitutents,  Berberine, are potent producers of DNA damage in in vitro human cell cultures.  In cells treated with goldenseal, the extent of DNA damage was correlated to the Berberine content and was directly associated with inhibition of topoisomerase II (an essential enzyme for DNA replication).  Goldenseal . . . was shown to increase liver tumors in rodents in a National Toxicology Program two-year carcinogenicity study.  However, the mechanism for liver carcinogenity was not determined in this study [but see below re incretin drugs].  ... In addition, DNA damage was also observed in cells treated with commercially available goldenseal extracts and the extent of DNA damage was positively correlated to the berberine content.

In vitro testing is worthless.

A few years in Australia ago there was a study showing that alcohol in mouthwash caused cancer to in vitro isolated human cell cheek cultures or something to that effect.  The study funders just happened to be a new competitor to Listerine.   Naturally, this got spread around by the boobs that Listerine causes cancer and hence a new urban legend was created.

So same B.S., different year.  Publish or perish.

[MachineGhost]

Excellent Frontline program on supplements aired tonight -- when is Frontline not excellent? --
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/artic ... he-bottle/

When it is one-sided propaganda authored and funded by Big Pharma -- which it was in this case.

[MachineGhost]

myself am not a disbeliever. I am just suspicious of the people who put the pills together in the first place. Why? Because it's unregulated in the States. I realize that this is a very libertarian forum, but I like the idea of someone watching the vitamin makers since I don't have a lab to see what's in my pills.

Ught.  It's NOT unregulated.  It's regulated under the DSHEA of 1994.  The major difference is FDA pre-approval to the tune of $1 billion and 10 years of trials is not first required to demonstrate efficacy.  The FDA has full legal authority to take ANY supplement off the market if it is mislabeled, adultered, unsafe or does not follow stringent cGMP.

Stop spreading lies because this is what anti-supplement proponents do.  You know, the crony idiots in Big Pharma's pockets like mandatory vaccination proponent Dr. [Pr]Offit?

[MachineGhost]

Again, I'm all for supplements. I just think a lot of people are out there willing to make a fast buck at the expense of our dollars at the least, and our health at the worst. And if they aren't regulated, who's to stop them?

BTW, how well is your regulation working out for you with Big Pharma?  There's bad apples in any barrel, but the bad apples overwhelm in the Big Pharma barrel because they control the FDA via the revolving door syndrome.  Would you want supplements to fall victim to the same corruption?  I have some pretty choice words to say about that which aren't at all family friendly.

[MachineGhost]

Not advocating anything, but below are select slides from a presentation given by Dr. Roizen who is the chief wellness officer at the Cleveland Clinic:

[MachineGhost]

I may have an update to the regime soon (the one in the OP, not mine).

[Kbg]

Does anyone have a succinct and simple summary of what is good/not good for one's daily diet? I've given up all hope of trying to find this information via a search engine because...

A) search results yield someone who is pushing a diet type agenda

B) the science seems conflicting

C) i have very little personal interest in getting deeply educated on this topic...reading a medical study has about 0% interest for me

Bottom line: I'd just like to eat healthy

[Benko]

There are many schools of diet and some people have issues which means what works for some people, doesn't for others.

Eating lots of foods with added sugar is generally unhealthy though e.g. 5 grams of sugar in the ingredients e.g. Kind bars are fine.

Partially hydrogenated fats are very bad, as are rancid fats e.g. deep fried foods.

There is general agreement that the following are very healthy (if you tolerate them):
--green leafy veggies
--cruciferous veggies (broccoli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts)
--berries
--garlic, onions, allium family
--nuts especially walnuts

legumes e.g. beans, lentils are healthy if you tolerate them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Beyond that it gets more complicated and there are differing theories.

If you have "gut issues", then some foods e.g. grains, legumes may not work for you.

One simple thing to eat which can be very healthy is a "green smoothie". Try:
--1 tbsp. ground flax seeds
--1 cup mixed berries (unsweetened) or 1 banana and 1/2 cup berries
--1-2 cups raw spinach

Mayo clinic's recipe
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifes ... p-20049958

[Reub]

And get your fiber every day! It's important to prevent blood sugar spikes, to prevent cancer, and also to keep your cholesterol levels healthy. I take partially hydrogenated guar gum (a soluble fiber) before most meals.

[MachineGhost]

Interesting info in the slides. Any idea why he recommends avoiding mouthwash with alcohol?

Bacteria in the mouth convert nitrates to nitrites (necessary to produce nitric oxide). Typical overreaction to something small when there's bigger issues to be worrying about in the mouth. Just don't shower for a day or two and you'll probably get heaps more NO that way.

[MachineGhost]

Does anyone have a succinct and simple summary of what is good/not good for one's daily diet? I've given up all hope of trying to find Bottom line: I'd just like to eat healthy

Avoid fructose, fatty land meats/fluids (trim or lean), trans fats/Omega-6 oils and processed/fiberless carbs. Everything else is fair game.

An example meal plate would be approximately 1/4th full of lean meat, 1/4th full of a cabohydrate and 1/2 full of two servings of vegetables or one serving of vegetables and one serving of a low-fructose fruit like berries or one with a lot of fiber like apples. An optimal serving of lean meat to induce muscle anabolism in an elderly 70ish year old (worst case!) is 4.3 ounces (30 grams) cooked weight (any more will be oxidized as theres a hard limit to how much the gut can absorb), a serving of fruit or vegetables is 3.03 ounces (85 grams) and the carbohydrate should be 50 grams of net carbs (weight varies depending on what you measure, for instance its 7.1 oz of cooked parboiled white rice which has resistant starch (fiber), 10.60 oz of raw potatos before being peeled or 1 cup of raw oatmeal).

[MachineGhost]

Followup. The optimal protein intake to maximize muscle anabolism is thusly:

Avg 22 years of age: .24 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight per meal.
Avg 71 years of age: .40 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight per meal.

So logically, the in-between point for an average age is 46.5 years, so you need .325 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight per meal. Someone could probably come up with a linear extrapolation for all ages if they wanted to be really geeky. The gut has a limited capability of taking in protein at any one time; so if you eat above this level you're just oxidizing the protein and consuming what is increasingly expensive calories.

The important thing to take away from this is that you need to INCREASE your protein intake as you get older to offset sarcopenia.

Now, the other side of the coin is leucine, the muscle anabolism initator. People above 65 years of age have an inverse correlation with leucine, i.e. the less leucine they eat, the more muscle mass they will lose. And the magical amount for no muscle mass loss at all was 7.12 grams of leucine per day, which works out to be requiring 1.25 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight per day or .4167 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight per meal.

So this is why I recommend the rule of thumb of assuming each ounce of cooked protein has 7 grams of protein and to always eat 4 oz per meal. Some meats like chicken have slightly more grams protein per ounce, whereas others like lean meat have slightly less protein grams per ounce. Not sure about soy and other "low quality" proteins that are typically leucine deficit. The most leucine-dense protein currently known is whey protein isolate.

You could certainly use a leucine or BCAA supplement in place of eating so much expensive protein to make sure you get the absolute bare minimum of at least 2.5 grams of leucine per meal, but you'd need to make up for the loss of calories elsewhere. Now that I got BCAA in capsules, I plan on experimenting with my regular protein intake to see what happens.

[MachineGhost]

[MachineGhost]

Very surprising! K seems severely underrated by everyone. A "high" intake would be at least the average intake of K1 (626.4 mcg/day) and K2 (57.5 mcg/day), i.e. a proper K complex supplement will be double those values (as they are).

Dietary intake of vitamin K is inversely associated with mortality risk.

Vitamin K has been related to cardiovascular disease and cancer risk. However, data on total mortality are scarce. The aim of the present study was to assess the association between the dietary intake of different types of vitamin K and mortality in a Mediterranean population at high cardiovascular disease risk. A prospective cohort analysis was conducted in 7216 participants from the PREDIMED (Prevención con Dieta Mediterránea) study (median follow-up of 4.8 y). Energy and nutrient intakes were evaluated using a validated 137-item food frequency questionnaire. Dietary vitamin K intake was calculated annually using the USDA food composition database and other published sources. Deaths were ascertained by an end-point adjudication committee unaware of the dietary habits of participants after they had reviewed medical records and linked up to the National Death Index. Cox proportional hazard models were fitted to assess the RR of mortality. Energy-adjusted baseline dietary phylloquinone intake was inversely associated with a significantly reduced risk of cancer and all-cause mortality after controlling for potential confounders (HR: 0.54; 95% CI: 0.30, 0.96; and HR: 0.64; 95% CI: 0.45, 0.90, respectively). In longitudinal assessments, individuals who increased their intake of phylloquinone or menaquinone during follow-up had a lower risk of cancer (HR: 0.64; 95% CI: 0.43, 0.95; and HR: 0.41; 95% CI: 0.26, 0.64, respectively) and all-cause mortality (HR: 0.57; 95% CI: 0.44, 0.73; and HR: 0.55; 95% CI: 0.42, 0.73, respectively) than individuals who decreased or did not change their intake. Also, individuals who increased their intake of dietary phylloquinone had a lower risk of cardiovascular mortality risk (HR: 0.52; 95% CI: 0.31, 0.86). However, no association between changes in menaquinone intake and cardiovascular mortality was observed (HR: 0.76; 95% CI: 0.44, 1.29). An increase in dietary intake of vitamin K is associated with a reduced risk of cardiovascular, cancer, or all-cause mortality in a Mediterranean population at high cardiovascular disease risk. This trial was registered at http://www.controlled-trials.com as ISRCTN35739639.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24647393

[Maddy]

MK et al., would you comment on the idea of using kelp as a one-stop source of dietary minerals?

[MachineGhost]

MK et al., would you comment on the idea of using kelp as a one-stop source of dietary minerals?

Vegetables don't have much vitamins or minerals per se, i.e. not RDA levels. So I wouldn't count on it. They're only useful for phytonutrients and fiber.

They also have a nasty habit of accumulating toxic minerals like thallium. There was a story a few years ago about that and kelp. Apparantly there's a county in Northern California where people are health nuts and eat way too much kelp in smoothies every day so were devloping symptoms of thallium poisioning.

Personally, I've found my self-grown organic raw kelp to overstimulate me and give me a fatique crash the next day. Don't know if thats a sign of toxicity or there's just something stimulating in it (I'm very sensitive to stimulants though I would get a rebound headache to indeed indicate it was that afterwards). Cooked kelp seemed better but it still kept me up way past my bedtime. It wasn't a wired feeling just lack of being tired.

EDIT: Ooops, my bad! I was thinking of kale not kelp. Sea vegetables are the most concentrated source of minerals so they would work for trace minerals. However, I don't recall seeing any were ever dense enough to meet the RDA, so look into it. Kelp is essentially used for getting a naturally concentrated source of iodine.