The Permanent Supplement Regime

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vnatale
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:14 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:17 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:58 pm
I thought there was more data in favor of the fish oil (omega-3) than on coconut oil, which is sketchy at best.
I don't have anything that can back me up. But, I don't believe that there is much (if any) direct nootropic benefit from either one if ingested in realistic quantities. At least that is my opinion after personally experimenting with both. The coconut oil has a large MCT component which converts to ketones pretty rapidly, so there could be some effect there, but as I mentioned that is a rough way to up your ketones. Not recommended in quantity. Likewise you can't take Omega 3's in any significant quantity (as a percentage of your daily calories). That much PUFA would do way more damage than good.

From a practical standpoint, any nootropic benefit from a dietary supplement would be measured at the noise level if you haven't already reduced carbohydrates and alcohol to a very small fraction of your energy intake. Most people report significant reduction in brain fog and increased focus after a few months of making that step. It would be like a smoker asking about workouts and nutrition to get in shape. Yes, there are some great things you can do, but first quit smoking. Unfortunately, that kind of dietary change can be extremely difficult and/or undesirable for a large part of the population.
I have down the alcohol part. Zero. But it seems my diet is highly carbohydrate. However, they are all of the complex variety. No simple. Do you make any differentiation between those two categories?

I don't have brain fog and good focus.

In the last few years I've noticed something quite the opposite effect than I'd have expected with advancing age.

I've been in the same position for over 10 years and doing a lot of accounting work in it.

In accounting many of the tasks are super repetitive. Could be you do them annually, quarterly, monthly, weekly, or, even daily.

Therefore in that time span I've performed many of the same tasks over and over and over.

Of course many of them are not brain stimulating at all to do so I want to complete them using as little time as possible.

What's been happening in the past few years is that for many of these tasks that I've done for years and years I'm all of a sudden getting these flash insights into doing them faster, a different way, less steps. Basically taking less time to accomplish the mission or producing a better end result or both. Or, finally coming up with solutions to certain problems that that eluded me in the past.

This, of course, is something I've always done all the time - perform a task better. But the last few years have been without parallel for the depth and the number of these insights I've having. Far more than in any prior years.

Opposite of what you'd expect in that at this age even though I'd done these things so many times sometimes I'd think that I'd start to get fuzzy on some of the steps.

The only brain diminution I seem to have experienced is the "name thing" and that started sometime in my early 50s and is certainly not getting any better. I did read, though, recently that name recognition peaks at age 25. That "name thing" doesn't really bother me since that seems to be a common malady for those in my age bracket and really does not get in the way of life.

Since I started doing free weight (barbells) nine years ago at the age of 60 and dutifully doing them since then almost with fail three mornings while pushing myself to my absolute limits like I never have an any prior exercise program is it possible that the free weights have actually improved my brain? I've read that they are good for that. However, as soon as I wrote that I thought, if true, why have they only had that effect the last two years or so and not the preceding seven?

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Mark Leavy » Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:30 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:14 pm
is it possible that the free weights have actually improved my brain?
Guaranteed to be a strong factor in at least the maintenance. But tough to pinpoint the cause of your more recent accounting clairvoyance. There are a lot of variables in life.

Great to hear that you're staying sharp.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:35 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:30 pm
vnatale wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:14 pm
is it possible that the free weights have actually improved my brain?
Guaranteed to be a strong factor in at least the maintenance. But tough to pinpoint the cause of your more recent accounting clairvoyance. There are a lot of variables in life.

Great to hear that you're staying sharp.
As I've many times told people, I'm built for thinking not for muscles. Therefore I need to hold to the brain functioning for as long as possible. As do all reading this!

Compared to the general American or world population this group in this forum heavily skews towards the more brain end (while fully believing that many of you have far more muscle than I do. In that area I'm just trying to do my best given my (low) potential - thin boned and "hard gainer").

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by jason » Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:19 pm

Hello all,
I'm surprised there isn't more discussion in this forum regarding the use of high dose vitamin B3, niacin, for mental health benefits. Dr. Abram Hoffer discovered it in the 1950s after the pellagra (niacin deficiency) epidemic that was caused by the introduction of white/refined flour. After white flour became popular, the mental hospitals began to overflow with psychotic people (people experiencing delusions and/or hallucinations) with the diagnosis of schizophrenia. It was determined that refining flour into white flour removed essential nutrients so it was leading to people become vitamin deficient, and then the US Congress passed a law requiring that all white flour be enriched with vitamins. The mental hospital population quickly shrank, but Dr. Hoffer wondered if giving higher doses of vitamins would provide benefit to the patients who remained sick. He figured that since the psychosis from pellagra is clinically indistinguishable from schizophrenia, that perhaps schizophrenics were niacin deficient, but needed higher doses than what was added to white flour. After working with patients, he determined that giving very high doses of niacin (3,000+ mg/day) was hugely beneficial for schizophrenics, as long as it was given early on in the illness. Chronically ill patients had a much tougher/slower recovery. Dr. Hoffer conducted a double-blind, placebo-controlled study on niacin for acute (non-chronic) schizophrenia which showed huge benefits. But he could not get the article published in any mainstream journal, despite being a prolific publisher of mainstream research on LSD. Almost 20 years later, after Linus Pauling teamed up with Dr. Hoffer and niacin therapy was gaining traction, a mainstream study was conducted and published in a top psychiatry journal concluding that it didn't work. A few months later, the American Psychiatric Association announced that vitamins are of no benefit for mental illness. But then a follow up paper was published the following year and published in the same top journal and the author concluded that the treatment showed huge benefits for the subgroup of acutely ill schizophrenics. To this day, this is the only mainstream study on niacin for schizophrenia (that I am aware of). Here is the link to it:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaps ... act/491246
The abstract is very vague, but the paper says it works. Specifically, it discusses what the data shows if you separate out people who were acutely ill from the ones that were chronically ill:
"there were twice as many with a good outpatient adjustment score in the niacin supplementation group as in the control group."
I refer to this study as the "smoking gun" that shows that niacin works. Perhaps not surprisingly, the Big Pharma-aligned APA did not change the conclusion they had announced the previous year about vitamins being useless for mental illness.
Dr. Hoffer said he treated literally thousands of patients with niacin (typically in doses of 3,000 to 9,000 mg/day) for virtually all forms of mental health issues with huge success - schizophrenia, anxiety, depression, insomnia, etc. and he published numerous books on this.
Also, there are a lot of myths regarding high dose niacin being dangerous. It can often cause a mild elevation in liver enzymes the same way statin drugs do, but such elevations are considered benign, and serious injury or death is incredibly rare. Scientologists use high dose niacin in combination with heavy sauna use, and some people have run into health problems or even died, but I would assume it's primarily due to dehydration, not the niacin. But that has smeared the reputation of niacin. Slow release niacin has been associated with very rare cases of toxic liver reactions. Ironically, the only FDA approved form of niacin called Niaspan is a slow release formulation. This type of reaction from regular (non slow-release) niacin is almost unheard of. Also, niacin is known to cause a strong flushing side effect. It makes your skin turn red and feel likes a bad sunburn for about 30 minutes. But this is typically only strong at the beginning. It gets better after the first few days. Niacinamide is a different form of niacin and it does not have this side effect. Dr. Hoffer said it works for mental health benefits, too.
I have been taking high dose niacin three times per day for years and it's helped me tremendously. My stress levels are much lower and my overall mood is much better. I started by taking niacinamide which worked very well for reducing my stress, but then I switched to niacin because it lowers cholesterol. It lowered my cholesterol from 260 to 180. I just wanted to share my experience. I am not a doctor or health professional so I am definitely not qualified to give medical advice. I'm just sharing some little-known history and my experience with you.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by dualstow » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:57 pm

This is fairly contrarian forum, and not just in the area of investing.

I'm curious: do you think kombucha is BS or worth drinking? I’m thinking about brewing it to save on costs, but I'm still somewhat skeptical.
Any thoughts?
(There's an older thread started by MG but it went nowhere. Consider this a bump).
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Mark Leavy » Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:50 pm

My opinion is that it is a benign tasty refreshment. Nothing special. Usually brewed a little too sweet for my tastes.
In general, fermented foods of any sort are probably better than their unfermented equivalents. The fermentation swaps out the carbs for vinegar and a few beasties. An improvement, but that's about it, I think.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by dualstow » Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:24 pm

Thanks, Mark. In that case, that'd be a lot of hoops to jump through for a fermented beverage, I guess. There's always coffee, oolong and beer. O0
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by vnatale » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:00 pm

dualstow wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:57 pm
This is fairly contrarian forum, and not just in the area of investing.

I'm curious: do you think kombucha is BS or worth drinking? I’m thinking about brewing it to save on costs, but I'm still somewhat skeptical.
Any thoughts?
(There's an older thread started by MG but it went nowhere. Consider this a bump).
One of our organization's main tenants produces it. I've never ever even tasted it because I cannot stand anything with a vinegar type smell to it. When my parents would eat french fries with vinegar on them I'd have to leave the room.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by dualstow » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:26 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:00 pm
When my parents would eat french fries with vinegar on them I'd have to leave the room.
That is such a weird New England thing. Ruins the fries which would otherwise be an important part of the Permanent Diet. O0
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:48 pm

Not really a "supplement" but I've been using Costco brand protein bars as an pre-emptive appetite suppressant. 20g of protein and 15g of fiber 2 or 3 times a day.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by vnatale » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:15 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:48 pm
Not really a "supplement" but I've been using Costco brand protein bars as an pre-emptive appetite suppressant. 20g of protein and 15g of fiber 2 or 3 times a day.
On the ingredients list how far down is "sugar" listed as an ingredient?

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by WiseOne » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:18 pm

Nothing wrong with inulin, but most of those bars might as well be candy, with the amount of sugar they've got in them. Some of them are no different from downing a Snickers. They may or may not say "sugar" on the ingredient list, but there's no end of sugary products peddled as healthy (agave, coconut sugar, brown rice syrup, dextrin, .... the list is endless).

I figure fermented foods are sort of like free probiotics, and probably no worse than ordering pills on Amazon that are 99% likely to be dead and 100% likely to come from China. I don't bother with kombucha, but I get fermented veggies from my local grocery - variations on sauerkraut. They are great for lazy cooks: open bag, scoop out veggies, put on plate, eat.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by dualstow » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:48 pm

Cool. I don’t think i’ve seen fermented vegetables in my stores other than the ‘kraut.
I used to see Mother In Law’s brand kimchi with daikon cubes. Then it was suddely napa cabbage all the time.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by pp4me » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:09 pm

I get my fermented food from liquid supplements on a daily basis.

And even if I don't it seems as though my body always has its own fermentation process going on at all times and provides me with plenty of evidence.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Mark Leavy » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:04 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:48 pm
Cool. I don’t think i’ve seen fermented vegetables in my stores other than the ‘kraut.
I used to see Mother In Law’s brand kimchi with daikon cubes. Then it was suddely napa cabbage all the time.
Some boutique shops (or hippy dippy co-ops) will have "live pickles" or live kraut. Made through fermentation instead of just soaking them in vinegar. If I see some, I usually pick some up just because I like the tang more than the mass produced stuff. I had an ex that would make sauerkraut and I always enjoyed that.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by dualstow » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:14 pm

Same here: an ex is a master of kraut, kombucha and gardening, but wasn’t when we were together. Shouldn’t have let her go. O0
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:58 pm

Do you all not have BING?!

180cal
5g fat
24g carb
16g fiber
2g sugar
3g erythritol (sounds like a urinary tract infection medicine)
22g protein

The protein is milk protein and whey. Fucking awesome. For Vinny: sugar is not listed on the ingredients.

Don't be such negative nancies, these things are the bomb.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by vnatale » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:15 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:58 pm
Do you all not have BING?!

180cal
5g fat
24g carb
16g fiber
2g sugar
3g erythritol (sounds like a urinary tract infection medicine)
22g protein

The protein is milk protein and whey. Fucking awesome. For Vinny: sugar is not listed on the ingredients.

Don't be such negative nancies, these things are the bomb.
While we are somewhat on topic and referring back to a comment you'd prior made to me.

I'm leaning towards fully believing I'm not getting enough protein to maximize my exercise efforts.

Do you have any protein supplements you favor -- with no sugar (or its cousins) or dairy listed as an ingredient?

Something like this gets quite high ratings from a lot of customers but does not meet my criteria.

https://www.amazon.com/Jocko-RAW-M%C3%B ... l_huc_item

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:26 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:15 pm
While we are somewhat on topic and referring back to a comment you'd prior made to me.

I'm leaning towards fully believing I'm not getting enough protein to maximize my exercise efforts.

Do you have any protein supplements you favor -- with no sugar (or its cousins) or dairy listed as an ingredient?
Nope. The things I like list sugar as an ingredient. If that's your criteria..... good luck.

Meat is sugar free, btw.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by vnatale » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:48 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:26 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:15 pm
While we are somewhat on topic and referring back to a comment you'd prior made to me.

I'm leaning towards fully believing I'm not getting enough protein to maximize my exercise efforts.

Do you have any protein supplements you favor -- with no sugar (or its cousins) or dairy listed as an ingredient?
Nope. The things I like list sugar as an ingredient. If that's your criteria..... good luck.

Meat is sugar free, btw.
You have had experience with these supplements? If so, do you see anything objectionable about this which seems like it maybe fits my criteria? I have zero past experience with any of this.

https://www.amazon.com/TGS-All-Natural- ... l_huc_item


Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:17 am

Make up your mind. Do you care about 2g of sugar or not?

The protein I've used for many years is Optimum Nutrition, which has pretty similar nutrition data, but mixes perfectly without a blender, which is a big factor for me. I don't know if that TGS one does or not, but please let me know. ON is also one of the legit companies that, when independent labs do testing, actually has as much protein as the label says. The other thing to consider is that ON is a blend of whey protein concentrate & isolate, and TGS is concentrate; some people have a harder time digesting concentrate. Don't take that as "concentrate is hard to digest" since you might have no issues.

Just try it and see how you like it.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by vnatale » Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:31 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:17 am
Make up your mind. Do you care about 2g of sugar or not?

The protein I've used for many years is Optimum Nutrition, which has pretty similar nutrition data, but mixes perfectly without a blender, which is a big factor for me. I don't know if that TGS one does or not, but please let me know. ON is also one of the legit companies that, when independent labs do testing, actually has as much protein as the label says. The other thing to consider is that ON is a blend of whey protein concentrate & isolate, and TGS is concentrate; some people have a harder time digesting concentrate. Don't take that as "concentrate is hard to digest" since you might have no issues.

Just try it and see how you like it.
Thanks for the full explanation.

Regarding the sugar. I'm not against the sugar that is in fruit. I am against cane sugar, corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup, dextrose, maltose, all the other -toses's, and all the other similar type sugars.

I will eat honey and maple syrup once in a while (thought I acknowledge they may be quite similar to sugar. It's just not as easy to find food that contains them as ingredients.) Stevia is my choice of sweetener.

I actually (believe if or not) just realized that whey is from milk (and, the product I asked you about is 100% made from whey from milk).

Milk nutritionally has "sugar" in it. I'm not against sugars in their natural forms as part of whole foods. I am opposed to all the sugars I just listed above.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:04 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:31 am
Regarding the sugar. I'm not against the sugar that is in fruit. I am against cane sugar, corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup, dextrose, maltose, all the other -toses's, and all the other similar type sugars.

I will eat honey and maple syrup once in a while (thought I acknowledge they may be quite similar to sugar. It's just not as easy to find food that contains them as ingredients.) Stevia is my choice of sweetener.

Milk nutritionally has "sugar" in it. I'm not against sugars in their natural forms as part of whole foods. I am opposed to all the sugars I just listed above.
Sounds like you're trying to say that you prefer fruit and honey and natural stuff more than sugar that is refined out of natural stuff, even though they all have the same types of sugars in them. Being against "-toses" makes no sense, those are just the technical names for different types.

Milk (from ruminants) also has naturally occurring trans fats in it.
I actually (believe if or not) just realized that whey is from milk (and, the product I asked you about is 100% made from whey from milk).
I believe you.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by vnatale » Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:53 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:04 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:31 am
Regarding the sugar. I'm not against the sugar that is in fruit. I am against cane sugar, corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup, dextrose, maltose, all the other -toses's, and all the other similar type sugars.

I will eat honey and maple syrup once in a while (thought I acknowledge they may be quite similar to sugar. It's just not as easy to find food that contains them as ingredients.) Stevia is my choice of sweetener.

Milk nutritionally has "sugar" in it. I'm not against sugars in their natural forms as part of whole foods. I am opposed to all the sugars I just listed above.
Sounds like you're trying to say that you prefer fruit and honey and natural stuff more than sugar that is refined out of natural stuff, even though they all have the same types of sugars in them. Being against "-toses" makes no sense, those are just the technical names for different types.

Milk (from ruminants) also has naturally occurring trans fats in it.


It means that I let nothing into my house which has any of those type sugars I describe. And, I cannot even remember what year I last bought anything for my house that has honey or maple syrup in it.

I'm a label reader and it requires constant vigilance to not buy any foods that contain the sugars that I describe. And, I also buy none that have honey or maple syrup in it. However, so as to not be totally rigid and inflexible, when I'm out still I'll avoid those sugars but might eat something sweetened by honey or maple syrup. That strategy drastically reduces my intake of sugar.

And, some background. I was a sugar-aholic. When I was 21 I was eating a pound of candy a day. For supper I could eat only a half gallon of ice cream. At business meals, I could eat only a sundae. When I was 23 I had 29 sides of cavities. I obviously had an issue with sugar.

At the age of 34 I stopped eating all the sugars which I described I avoid and have never succumbed since.

Therefore I've drawn these bright lines because otherwise my personality does not allow for moderation. It's generally either all or none.


I actually (believe if or not) just realized that whey is from milk (and, the product I asked you about is 100% made from whey from milk).
I believe you.
I am now looking into vegan protein supplements.

I do eat a ton of peanuts and peanut butter. A bowl of peanuts each day and can eat a pound of peanut butter in three days. 2 Tablespoons of peanut butter equal 9 g of protein. I'm seeing there are 14 servings per pound. Therefore 126 g total in a pound jar. So, when I do eat a pound over three days, I'm getting 42 g of protein per day from peanut butter. Finally, I buy Teddie peanut butter. The only ingredients are Dry Roasted Peanuts. Yet a serving has 2 g of sugar. That was the sugar distinction I was trying to make.

Finally was is your target grams of protein per pound of body weight?

I've read 0.5 g / pound. Therefore at 148 pounds, I'd need 74 g per day.


Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:16 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:53 pm
Finally was is your target grams of protein per pound of body weight?

I've read 0.5 g / pound. Therefore at 148 pounds, I'd need 74 g per day.
Vinny, I'm biting my tongue here. I certainly am not in a position to criticize other peoples's whackjob dietary ideas.

For men that aren't weight lifting, 1 gram of protein per kilogram of bodyweight is a good guideline. So your 0.5 g / pound is a reasonable minimum. I imagine Kriegsspiel eats a bit more. Yes, I know you lift, but you aren't lifting heavy yet, and this will at least put you in the right direction.

That said, I gotta say, Kriegsspiel is right on about sugar and protein. No issue with whatever guidelines you want to use to live your life, but they don't seem to be based on even a basic understanding of nutrition. And I cringe to think of getting most of my protein and fat from peanut butter. Alright. Sorry for getting side-tracked. Carry on.

Edit: And this may be somewhat relevant. In another thread I had mentioned that I was experimenting with an extreme ketogenic diet at the beginning of this year. 0.5 grams of animal protein per kilogram (about 35 grams of protein for me) and the rest of my calories from animal fat, mostly butter. Close to zero carbs and no alcohol. I got the ketogenic results I was looking for but after about 4 months I noticed I was losing too much muscle mass and have since added more protein back in the diet. And wine :)
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