The Permanent Supplement Regime

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Gumby
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Gumby » Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:54 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Gumby wrote: Hopefully that was just a short term therapeutic dose because a lot of people now believe that 1 Tablespoon of any fish oil isn't good for you over the long term. Way too much oxidation.
This bit caught my attention, what's the story here?
See...

Chris Kresser: When it comes to fish oil, more is not better

Chris Masterjohn: Precious Yet Perilous

Basically, using lots of Fish Oil over many years is probably not a good idea...
Chris Kresser wrote:This may come as a surprise to you, with all of the current media hoopla about the benefits of fish oil supplementation. Yet the vast majority of the studies done that have shown a benefit have been short-term, lasting less than one year. The only trial lasting more than four years, the DART 2 trial, showed that fish oil capsules actually increase the risk of heart disease and sudden death.

A 2004 Cochrane meta-analysis of trials lasting longer than six months suggests that the cardiovascular benefits of fish oil have been dramatically over-stated. They analyzed 79 trials overall, and pooled data from 48 trials that met their criteria. The only effect that could be distinguished from chance was a reduced risk of heart failure. Fish oil provided no reduction in total or cardiovascular mortality.

Too much fish oil can wreak havoc in your body

Omega-3 fatty acids are highly vulnerable to oxidative damage. When fat particles oxidize, they break down into smaller compounds, like malondialdehyde (MDA), that are dangerous because they damage proteins, DNA, and other important cellular structures.

A study by Mata et al demonstrated that oxidative damage increases as intake of omega-3 fat increases.


Source: Chris Kresser: When it comes to fish oil, more is not better
If you are trying to balance your Omega 3:6 ratio, the best way to do it is to reduce your Omega-6 intake and eat fish 2 or 3 times per week — rather than downing lots of Fish Oil. You can take therapeutic doses of Fish Oil (as MG is doing) to raise your Omega-3, but it's not a good long term solution, since it just increases the amount of oxidizable polyunsaturates in your body. A therapeutic dose of Fermented Cod Liver Oil could be up to 15mL to fight colds and other illnesses.

For maintenance doses, maybe limit Fish Oil to 1 gram and Fermented Cod Liver Oil to 5mL. That's just a rough estimate — everyone is different. (I'm not a doctor, so do your own research).
Last edited by Gumby on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing I say should be construed as advice or expertise. I am only sharing opinions which may or may not be applicable in any given case.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:12 am

I will be editing the regime list (on the first page) over time to provide links to "best of breed" book resources by the world's foremost experts.  I am open to suggestions.  Melatonin is the first.  I will prefer to vet (i.e. read) anything personally before listing it.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by BP » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:11 pm

I am posting without having read the previous posts, so please forgive me if my comments have been covered.  In my lay non-medical profession opinion, using most supplements creates expensive urine in most cases and does little for your overall health (and may in fact harm it).  And this assumes that supplements actually contain what is on the label and in the amount claimed on the label - a big if in most cases, e.g., lead in kids vitamins.  Supplements simply cannot recreate the various known and unknown nutrients in natural food and cannot make up for bad dietary (junk food) and lifestyle habits (sedentary, smoking, etc.).

I am a fan of Dr. Joel Fuhrman's work as in Eat to Live and like minded folks who advocate high nutrient food content as the vast majority of your diet. 

Another helpful resource is http://nutritionfacts.org with the many videos and blog.

Even the government has a good resource on supplements: http://ods.od.nih.gov/

Be well!
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Benko » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:24 pm

BP wrote: In my lay non-medical profession opinion, using most supplements creates expensive urine in most cases and does little for your overall health
You are quoting the former standart party line that even doctors have abandoned.  Patients at the hospital I work at routinely get blood tests to evaluate their vitamin D levels (since many/most are deficient).

A visit to the americal heart association web site will clue you in on the benefits on Fish oil (EPA/DHA).

In most cases it is preferable to get nuntrients from food (perhaps one of your points). 
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by BP » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:36 pm

I have no party line because I have no party to defend.  My opinions are based on my evaluation of the literature (many years worth as this is an area of personal interest) that I have reviewed.  The resources that I have posted are a small sample of information resources that generally meet the criteria for opinions based on scientific studies.  I personally take a multiple vitamin as cheap insurance.

And while you are having your Vitamin D level checked you might also consider having your B-12 level checked as well, even if you eat meat, and especially if you are getting older.

Be well.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Benko » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:53 pm

BP wrote: you might also consider having your B-12 level checked as well, even if you eat meat, and especially if you are getting older.
I am over 50 and take extra b12, thanks.  I can't see any need to get blood tested, since unlike vit d there is no harm in taking "extra".

"My opinions are based on my evaluation of the literature (many years worth as this is an area of personal interest) that I have reviewed. "

If you have reviewed the literature on vit D and are not taking extra/getting your blood levels checked (unless you get regular sun exposure) then your position is way out of the mainstream of a large number of people who have looked at this.  Which is your right. 
Last edited by Benko on Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:34 pm

Today, the Government Accounting Office's report on dietary supplement Adverse Event Reports was released.  This was requested by anti-dietary supplement, pro-Big Pharma cronyists Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) and Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA) after several failed efforts to regulate supplements as drugs.  Unfortunately for them, the report overwhelmingly demonstrates that dietary supplements are safe.  Case closed.

http://www.gao.gov/assets/660/653113.pdf
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Benko » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:25 am

MachineGhost wrote: The first bill (S.3650 and A.4700) will establish a Dietary Supplement Safety Committee that would create a system for adverse event reports; assess data and make recommendations to ban whichever nutritional supplements it deemed harmful; and establish a public health education campaign on dietary supplements. Most dangerous of all, the health commissioner would have the ability to ban supplements as recommended by committee.
We are from the gov't and we know better than you
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:31 am

400 IU of D3 a day increases 25-hydroxy levels by 2.6 ng/ml.

1000 IU of D3 a day increases 25-hydroxy levels by 7 ng/ml.

So, in the typical person who doesn't take supplements, they will have a 25-hydroxy level of approximately 20 ng/ml, insufficient to protect against cancer and other diseases.  To boost it to within the optimal 50-80 ng/ml range would require 5,000 IU of D3 each day, i.e. 20 + 35 = 55 ng/ml.  But because of fat tail outliers, more or less can be needed by any person and that can only be confirmed by a 25-hydroxy blood test.  But as a safe starting dose, 5,000 IU is it.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:11 am

Autophagy is turning out to be the strongest contender behind various life extension interventions.  Practical ways to promote it include:

    Fasting activates Autophagy -  caloric restriction affects 5 molecular pathways that activate autophagy
    Sunlight, Vitamin D and Klotho activate Autophagy - there are three ways through which UV light, Vitamin D, and the Klotho pathway activate autophagy via inhibiting the insulin/IGF-1 pathway
    Rapamycin activates Autophagy - there are two ways through which mTOR inhibitors activate autophagy –  TORC1 and TORC2 mechanisms
    Caffeine activates Autophagy - Caffeine can activate autophagy via an mTOR-dependent mechanism
    Green tea activates Autophagy - ECGC can activate autophagy via an mTOR-dependent mechanism
    Metformin activates Autophagy - metformin can activate autophagy via AMPK activation – mTOR-dependent and mTOR-independent mechanisms
    Lithium activates Autophagy -  lithium and other compounds can activate autophagy by inhibiting inositol monophosphate and lower IP3 levels – an mTOR-independent mechanism
    Resveratrol activates Autophagy – there are four 4 ways through which resveratrol can activate autophagy – via mTOR-dependent and mTOR-independent mechanisms
    Spermidine activates Autophagy - how spermidine activates autophagy via histone protein deacetylation – mTOR-indepdendent mechanism
    Hypoxia activates Autophagy -  intermittent hypoxia can increase autophagy via HIF-1a
    Phytosubstances which activate the Nrf2 pathway can activate Autophagy.  These are many and include soy products and hot chili peppers.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Benko » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:54 pm

MG,

Thanks for the reminder.  Years ago I ran across some articles by someone (he was involved in a supplement company, and I think he may still occasionally post on Lyle's board)  that talked about the importance of autophagy and compounds that promoted it.

Perhaps more ammunition for intermittent fasting.

Rapamycin--are you really taking this?  This is an immunosuppressant drug used to prevent rejection in organ transplantation

"Hypoxia activates Autophagy -  intermittent hypoxia can increase autophagy via HIF-1a"
Uhhhh did you pull this list as is from somewhere?
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:45 pm

Benko wrote: Rapamycin--are you really taking this?  This is an immunosuppressant drug used to prevent rejection in organ transplantation
Nah, curcumin is a rapamycin target analog so that does the job nicely.
"Hypoxia activates Autophagy -  intermittent hypoxia can increase autophagy via HIF-1a"
Uhhhh did you pull this list as is from somewhere?
We're not talking about auto-erotic asphyxiation but things like climbing mountains, low oxygen situations, etc.. :D  Heck I'm sure just pulling the sheet over your head while falling asleep would work.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by leeroy » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:03 pm

Not to derail the topic, but if you are concerned about absorption when taking fish oil perhaps you should consider a fermented variety.

Heres an article about it: http://www.fishoilfacts.net/review-gree ... liver-oil/
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Reub » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:10 pm

I miss Machine Ghost and want him back!
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Benko » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:13 pm

While I agree that he represented a helpful point of view, perhaps it is healthier for him not to spend lots of time on line debating supplements.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Reub » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:04 pm

I'd like to add another supplement to this list. It is berberine, an ancient chinese herb that has a potent, positive impact on blood sugar levels and cholesterol. It has also been shown to be a life extender.

For more information read here:

http://examine.com/supplements/Berberine/

"It can enhance glucose and lipid uptake into fat cells while simultaneously suppressing their proliferation, which exerts theoretically powerful anti-obesity effects; currently only two studies have reported fat mass changes over time with berberine, and the amount of fat loss seen over 12 weeks with 1500mg Berberine ranged from 3.6-13% of total body weight. It does appear to work in humans, but the magnitude of benefit is not yet ascertained. Additionally, it might attenuate some fat-burning effects despite these anti-obesity effects, although this has not yet been demonstrated in a living model (berberine may attenuate the rate of weight gain without conferring much inherent weight-loss benefit).

Berberine can also reverse insulin resistance on muscle cells and promote both glucose and lipid uptake into the muscle cells."

I have been feeling fantastic since beginning it's use a month ago. My fasting blood sugar level is down about 10 points so far, I have limitless energy, and am even losing a few pounds. It has been shown to be comparable to the drug metformin in it's positive effects on blood sugar but also has an excellent, scientifically proven positive effect on cholesterol and also promotes weight loss, while merformin seems to promote weight gain. I take 400 mg. 4X/day, purchased through Swanson vitamins.

This was recommended to me by MachineGhost so you know it must be good!
Last edited by Reub on Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Benko » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:52 pm

Reub,

If it works for you, it works.  Glad you found something that is helpful.

I follow examine.com which I do think highly of and have seen the reference to berberine.  I do not have any experience with berberine, so I can't add much aside from general prinicples (below).

Apparently berberine is one of the active ingredients in TCM formulas for diabetes.  TCM (traditional chinese medicine) which I do think highly of works, if you have a good practitioner, by having them diagnose you and then custamize an herbal remedy for you with the remedy containing a number of herbs.  If you are just taking berberine, you are taking one active ingredient and it is being used like a drug.  My bias is the TCM approach, but as I say, it sounds like it is working for you, so it may not matter.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:38 am

leeroy wrote: Not to derail the topic, but if you are concerned about absorption when taking fish oil perhaps you should consider a fermented variety.

Heres an article about it: http://www.fishoilfacts.net/review-gree ... liver-oil/
But it is oxidized.  Not a good idea given how prone EPA/DHA is to oxidizing and causing damage in the body.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:40 am

Benko wrote: While I agree that he represented a helpful point of view, perhaps it is healthier for him not to spend lots of time on line debating supplements.
+1.  This forum makes me too OCD.  It is like crack for intellectuals.  It seems to have mostly died since I left about a year ago?

EDIT: It seems that I've lost the ability to see all unread posts since I last frequented the forum because I've been logging into to PM which resets it.  I see a lot of activity by browsing the forums manually.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:42 am

Reub wrote: This was recommended to me by MachineGhost so you know it must be good!
And metformin depletes NAD+. ;)

And hypoxia referred to in post #60 is now a bad idea.  Pseudohypoxia in the cell is turning out to be the root cause behind aging.  I'll spare everyone the gnarly details.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Reub » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:51 pm

We don't need all of the details, MG. Just give us the cure! :)
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:11 am

Reub wrote: We don't need all of the details, MG. Just give us the cure! :)
Your wish is my command?

https://chromadex.com/Ingredients/NIAGEN.html

What do you think, Reub, is the Permanent Rehydration Water ready to go?
Last edited by MachineGhost on Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Reub » Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:51 pm

Haha! Thanks for the cure, MG! Do you think that the Niagen would elicit any bad side effects, as large dose niacin does? I would try the NR, however I would have to offset the cost by eliminating something else because of the relative high cost. From a list consisting of Vitamin A, Glisodin, magnesium, tocotrienols, pterostilbene, C, methylated B's, and fish oils, which are expendable?

I actually experimented with my own rehydrating water, composed of filtered water, a pinch of pink Himalayan sea salt, a dissolved chelated magnesium and potassium pill, and, my secret ingredient, a few grams of branched chain amino acids, in lieu of your preferred dextrose, since I am carb averse these days. I've had a bottle of it the past 2 days after exercise and my blood sugar has come down into the low to mid 90's for the rest of the day and even in the morning! I'm not certain if there is a connection there but I will report back.

And welcome back!
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by MachineGhost » Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:12 pm

Reub wrote: Haha! Thanks for the cure, MG! Do you think that the Niagen would elicit any bad side effects, as large dose niacin does? I would try the NR, however I would have to offset the cost by eliminating something else because of the relative high cost. From a list consisting of Vitamin A, Glisodin, magnesium, tocotrienols, pterostilbene, C, methylated B's, and fish oils, which are expendable?

I actually experimented with my own rehydrating water, composed of filtered water, a pinch of pink Himalayan sea salt, a dissolved chelated magnesium and potassium pill, and, my secret ingredient, a few grams of branched chain amino acids, in lieu of your preferred dextrose, since I am carb averse these days. I've had a bottle of it the past 2 days after exercise and my blood sugar has come down into the low to mid 90's for the rest of the day and even in the morning! I'm not certain if there is a connection there but I will report back.
I do believe you will have issues with NR just as with Niacin since NAD+ is a methyl acceptor and more NAD+ in the cell means more methyls gobbled up Pac Man style.  If you're prone to undermethylation, then it would be ill-advised not to load up on methyl donors such as TMG, SAMe, DMAE, folate, methylcobalamin.  You have the MTHFR gene, right?  I think that warrants special caution.  I'm not too up to speed on that but I believe it relates to the inability to convert synthetic folic acid into natural folate and the unconverted folic acid hangs around in the blood raising your risk of disease?  Does it apply to converting the other B vitamins?  I would be wary of taking both niacin and NR at the same time.  NR bypasses the rate limiter for Niacin -> NAD+.

None of what you listed is expendable, except the Vitamin A but I'm not ready to discuss that conundrum just yet.  I have to face the cost issue myself and I'm loathe to drop anything, though I've been mulling it over for a awhile.  But I just don't see anything that can be justified.  So I'm just going to wait for a Chinese knock off.  Chromadex's patents only protect NR manufacture in the USA.  And straight up NAD+ is apparantly not bioavailable; is destroyed by the gut.  So we'll just going to have to continue aging like a rusty pipe until NR is cost effective.  In the meantime, you can help offset all those nasty free radicals being spewed off by the reverse electron transport by taking ubiquinol, acety-l carnitine, r-lipoic acid, shilajit, biopqq, pterostilbene (Swanson has a new resveratrol/pterostilbene combo, BTW) and not eating so much calories.

Hmm, well BCAA is not going to make the water hypotonic, rather the opposite.  Are you really that sensitive to the small amount of dextrose per cup?  I'd like some objective evidence of higher glucose readings rather than fear.  I feel a little wary doing it too, but I don't notice any sugar high or crash.  It's just too small to matter.  But that is conjecture also.  Show me the data.

BCAA is not the best to take for anabolic stimulus.  The key effect is Leucine and it needs to be a dose of around 3 grams to have an effect.  Unfortunately, BCAA and L-Leucine are synthetic amino acids and not absorbed very well (if at all), so either buy BCAA peptides or Leucine peptides which are essentially hydrolyzed whey.  BCAA powder tastes like ass, and L-Leucine power tastes like plastic-ass and won't even dissolve or mix, so don't even try it.  I sent back a whole pound of L-Leucine powder once; it was that impossible to get down.  Last I checked, BioTest had the most cost effective Leucine peptides powder.  And be sure you take your resveratrol/peterostilbene with the Leucine as it enhances its uptake and absorption.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Permanent Supplement Regime

Post by Reub » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:29 pm

Regarding berberine, here is a recent article by Dr. Jonathon Wright:

http://www.trackyourplaque.com/forum/to ... x?ID=16171

"Berberine matches or beats metformin’s performance

As I mentioned earlier if there aren’t any natural treatment alternatives that work as well as (or better than) a patent medicine using a patent medication makes sense; especially if the condition is serious or life threatening. But otherwise it’s always best to “Copy Nature.”? So what are the preferred natural alternatives to metformin? The botanical berberine stands out as the obvious number one alternative. Berberine is safer and equal to or superior to metformin in the following ways:

For treatment of type-2 diabetes, insulin resistance and the high lipid levels resulting from insulin resistance, berberine is equal (in blood sugar and insulin resistance regulating effect) or superior (in lowering high lipids) to metformin. (For details, see Nutrition & Healing, November 2010.)"

"Berberine beats in cholesterol control too

In treatment of polycystic ovarian syndrome, berberine was found superior to metformin in reducing total cholesterol, triglycerides, LDL-cholesterol, waist circumference, and waist-to-hip ratio. Berberine was again equal to metformin in improving fasting blood sugar and insulin resistance, as well as an increase in HDL cholesterol and SHBG levels. (For details, see Nutrition & Healing, February 2013.)

While metformin appears to significantly decrease total and free testosterone, berberine’s effects may be the opposite. One animal study reported that berberine increased testosterone output from testicular cells in oxygen-deprived circumstances. While doing this, berberine administration may also slow prostate cancer progression!"

Berberine also has been shown to lower homocysteine levels, another important risk factor for heart disease. The "wonder drug" Metformin does the opposite.

Furthermore, berberine appears to reduce fatty liver, a stubborn and dangerous condition.

http://www.realdiabetestruth.com/liver- ... ar-levels/

Here is a comprehensive list of much of the berberine research:

http://www.heartfixer.com/CHC%20-%20Tre ... graphy.htm
Last edited by Reub on Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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