Scientology is not a religion; it is a dangerous authoritarian cult

[Ad Orientem]

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-an ... gion?all=1

I intensely dislike attacking what some people believe is a religion and generally shy away from that sort of thing. But I make an exception for Scientology. It is not a harmless group of people with flaky religious beliefs. Everything I have ever read about it makes me believe it is an organized criminal syndicate masquerading as a religion. The above linked article gives a pretty good overview of its very shady history and scary practices.

Many years ago I knew someone who got involved with them and what they did to him was frightening in the extreme. If you know anyone who is flirting with this group warn them to stay away!

[MediumTex]

Scientology is a very easy target because it's beliefs seem so obviously made up and its tactics so peculiar.

L. Ron Hubbard was, IMHO, just an industrious science fiction writer whose active imagination created a whole fantasy world that simple-minded people wander into and can stay trapped within for life.  

Although Mormonism is not in the same class as Scientology on the stupid-o-meter, if you study the lives of Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard, they are not terribly dissimilar.  Both were men with highly active imaginations with a science fiction orientation (or you might say pseudo-scientific orientation) who possessed great personal charisma and who transformed early non-religious belief systems into overtly religious belief systems seemingly because of the greater personal glory that came with being a prophet, as opposed to just an insightful person.

Both belief systems involve supernatural beings from other planets, both in the past and in the future, and both belief systems saw a second generation of leadership with better management skills than the founders possessed.

Yes, Scientology is weird.

The following Tom Cruise discussion of Scientology is quite entertaining (9:35):

http://youtu.be/UFBZ_uAbxS0

There are lots of great accounts from former Scientologists about how unpleasant their experience was of trying to get away from the church.

[Ad Orientem]

MT
I don't think I agree. Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses are weird but not cult like. Nor are they engaged in the kind of really crazy criminal activities that Scientology has been involved in. I mean the Mormons didn't break into the IRS building and bug it or send goons out to spy on government agents in an effort to dig up something to blackmail them with. And Hubbard was a con-artist who should have done time in the clink.

No, I think Scientology is on a different plane here.

[jackely]

Mormons and JW's both follow an isolation approach to sin, form a community isolate it from the big bad world and keep the members in an echo chamber where they only get exposed to church approved reality tunnels. this tends to give them a cult like feel to outsiders, both the Mormons and the JW's have good points, the Mormons focus on family and the in-depth bible study programs held by the JW's, i would not be likely to join either but they probably are not cults in the strictest sense of the word.. Scientology is far further over on the cult end of the religious spectrum..

if you ask a Mormon about the dubious origins and some of the far our beliefs they hold, they will probably shrug there shoulders and defend them not by refuting the charges but by pointing out that "it works" Mormons have a large, reasonably happy, reasonably well adjusted, family oriented community...

Although Mormonism is not in the same class as Scientology on the stupid-o-meter, if you study the lives of Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard, they are not terribly dissimilar. 

Don't mean to hijack this thread but before we decide to elect a devout Mormon to save us from the curse of Obamanism we ought to consider what American foreign policy is going to look like under his presidency......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Judaism

I think GWB had similiar beliefs based on his Christian faith but I fear Romney might end up being GWB on steroids.

Or, he could decide to more the whole country of Israel to Southern Utah to solve the mideast problems once and for all and that could be a good thing.

[MediumTex]

MT
I don't think I agree. Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses are weird but not cult like. Nor are they engaged in the kind of really crazy criminal activities that Scientology has been involved in. I mean the Mormons didn't break into the IRS building and bug it or send goons out to spy on government agents in an effort to dig up something to blackmail them with. And Hubbard was a con-artist who should have done time in the clink.

No, I think Scientology is on a different plane here.

Read No Man Knows My History and the story of the Mountain Meadows Massacre and see if you still feel the same way.  To me, it seems that Joseph Smith was clearly a con-artist, and Brigham Young was clearly a murderer.

In the 20th century the Mormon church cleaned up its act a lot, but in the 1800s I would say that that Mormon church was basically the Scientology of its time.

Perhaps Scientology will clean up its act in a similar way in the 21st century.

On a general note, I'm not sure how many Scientologists there actually are in the world.  It seems like a pretty small movement, thought it gets a lot of press coverage.

[Tortoise]

after reading a book on it i visited the site where the Mormon mountain massacre took place, it is in an out of the way place well off the beaten path on a gravel road, it doesn't even have a marker, i think some of what Med Tex is saying is true, they probably did start out as more of a cult and improved over the years.
Scientology may have to many wacky ideas and not enough practical value to pull their "church" out of the weird and possibly dangerous cult category though.

Have any of you seen the BBC documentary on Scientology? Throughout the filming, the church sent out people in black, nondescript vehicles to follow the journalist and film him from across the street wherever he went. Whenever he approached the Scientology cameramen and tried to be friendly by talking to them a little bit, most of them wouldn't say a word. Creepy.

The church of Scientology seems very concerned about PR.

[MediumTex]

Below is a great video of the Scientology harrassment crew that stalked a former Scientology member who had been a member of the church for decades (4:45):

http://youtu.be/1fPcEky5X74

After several months of stalking this man, one of the crew members bumped into his wife and he pushed him and the guy tried to press criminal charges against him.  

I think they hung around for about four months doing this kind of stuff.

***

Edit: Here is another good one with a woman harrassing the guy's wife at their house (6:18):

http://youtu.be/KOd__GJLeCs

Scientology "news team" filming a segment in front of his house (1:21):

http://youtu.be/MQ6ZDXh9rVM

[Coffee]

Although Mormonism is not in the same class as Scientology on the stupid-o-meter, if you study the lives of Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard, they are not terribly dissimilar. 

Don't mean to hijack this thread but before we decide to elect a devout Mormon to save us from the curse of Obamanism we ought to consider what American foreign policy is going to look like under his presidency......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Judaism

I think GWB had similiar beliefs based on his Christian faith but I fear Romney might end up being GWB on steroids.

Or, he could decide to more the whole country of Israel to Southern Utah to solve the mideast problems once and for all and that could be a good thing.

I always love how anti-semitism pops up in completely unrelated threads on this forum, and everyone just ignores it.

[jackely]

I always love how anti-semitism pops up in completely unrelated threads on this forum, and everyone just ignores it.

For the record, I am against all forms of special relationships and what our forefathers called "entangling" alliances with other countries that lead us into war, be it with Israel or any other country.

[Ad Orientem]

Although Mormonism is not in the same class as Scientology on the stupid-o-meter, if you study the lives of Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard, they are not terribly dissimilar. 

Don't mean to hijack this thread but before we decide to elect a devout Mormon to save us from the curse of Obamanism we ought to consider what American foreign policy is going to look like under his presidency......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Judaism

I think GWB had similiar beliefs based on his Christian faith but I fear Romney might end up being GWB on steroids.

Or, he could decide to more the whole country of Israel to Southern Utah to solve the mideast problems once and for all and that could be a good thing.

I always love how anti-semitism pops up in completely unrelated threads on this forum, and everyone just ignores it.

I must be missing something... I see a shot at Mormonism and our idiotic foreign policy. But I am not seeing anything anti-Semitic.

[Coffee]

I always love how anti-semitism pops up in completely unrelated threads on this forum, and everyone just ignores it.

For the record, I am against all forms of special relationships and what our forefathers called "entangling" alliances with other countries that lead us into war, be it with Israel or any other country.

Sure, and somehow a discussion of Scientology just happens to trigger your feelings about all of our other special relationships we have too, I'll bet?

How long before MT locks this thread?

[Coffee]

Don't mean to hijack this thread but before we decide to elect a devout Mormon to save us from the curse of Obamanism we ought to consider what American foreign policy is going to look like under his presidency......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Judaism

I think GWB had similiar beliefs based on his Christian faith but I fear Romney might end up being GWB on steroids.

Or, he could decide to more the whole country of Israel to Southern Utah to solve the mideast problems once and for all and that could be a good thing.

I always love how anti-semitism pops up in completely unrelated threads on this forum, and everyone just ignores it.

I must be missing something... I see a shot at Mormonism and our idiotic foreign policy. But I am not seeing anything anti-Semitic.

Yes, as if the entirety of our foreign policy can be summed up by our special relationship with Israel, and some kind of hard on that Mormons allegedly have for it because of an article on Wikipedia.

"Okay."

[Ad Orientem]

Coffee
I think you are overreacting. You haven't shown any form of anti-Semitism. If you can point to some beyond a disagreement with our foreign policy as it relates to Israel I am willing to hear you out. But if your argument is basically that criticism of Israel or our support for it amounts to anti-Semitism then I doubt your going to find much sympathy on this forum.

I am proudly isolationist. The Middle East Europe and Asia are none of our business. That has noting to do with religion. It has to do with minding our own damned business.  You are of course free to disagree with my opinions. But playing the anti-Semite card every-time someone dares to criticize Israel or our blank check support for them gets kinda old. I see that way too often whenever the topic of the Middle East pops up in a discussion here or or almost anywhere.

[BearBones]

I always love how anti-semitism pops up in completely unrelated threads on this forum, and everyone just ignores it.

Wow! Why is it that anti-semitism alway pops up when someone says ANYTHING negative about Israel (or US policies entangled with it)? Being against the policies of a government do not equate with being against a people or entire religion, IMO. There are lots of negative posts on this forum about US governmental policies (of which some policies are rooted in what I will call neo-Christian dogma), but no one is accusing the person of being anti-Christian or even anti-American are they?

[Coffee]

Yes, because the first thing I always think about when somebody's talking about Scientology and Mormons is: Our foreign policy with Israel. 

Sure thing, guys. Whatever you say.

[Ad Orientem]

Yes, because the first thing I always think about when somebody's talking about Scientology and Mormons is: Our foreign policy with Israel. 

Sure thing, guys. Whatever you say.

OK, you have established that the comment was off topic. I am still waiting for the anti-Semitism.

[jackely]

And also for the record I think Southern Utah is one of the most awesome places I've ever visited, especially Mt. Zion national park.

[Coffee]

Yes, because the first thing I always think about when somebody's talking about Scientology and Mormons is: Our foreign policy with Israel.  

Sure thing, guys. Whatever you say.

OK, you have established that the comment was off topic. I am still waiting for the anti-Semitism.

The fact that it's off-topic demonstrates that it is anti-Semitic.  Why else would you drag Israel into this conversation out of the blue?  He talks about foreign policy, and then uses it as a launching pad to talk about...  Israel?  What possible motivation could he have for doing that?  Hmmm... I don't know?  Wouldn't happen to talk about our special relationship with the UK?  Or Mexico? Or Saudi Arabia?  Or France?  Just always happens to be Israel for some reason.  

Sure, probably just a coincidence.  

To suggest that Romney's religion would control U.S. foreign policy, if not anti-semitic, is definitely anti-Mormon.  Is it not possible for a Mormon to think for himself?  He's suggesting that Romney will be a "Manchurian Candidate" taking his orders from the Church in Utah.  And since the Church in Utah is pro-Israel [his Wiki linkage, not mine.] the implication is that we're guaranteed to run our foreign policy in a manner that benefits Israel and not us.

[BearBones]

Yes, because the first thing I always think about when somebody's talking about Scientology and Mormons is: Our foreign policy with Israel. 

Sure thing, guys. Whatever you say.

BTW, isn't this whole discussion bigoted, after all?  I find it interesting that someone would single out a small comment about Israel after a whole series of overt, disparaging comments about Scientology, Mormonism, and Jehovah's Witnesses. Wow. Why not bring on some genuine antisemitism or anti-Christian comments if we are going to keep this fair. Show me ANY religion, and I will show you an element or faction which is cultish and dangerous. Or.. maybe we could just talk about our investments.

[Coffee]

Yes, because the first thing I always think about when somebody's talking about Scientology and Mormons is: Our foreign policy with Israel. 

Sure thing, guys. Whatever you say.

Or.. maybe we could just talk about our investments.

+1.

[jackely]

Yes, because the first thing I always think about when somebody's talking about Scientology and Mormons is: Our foreign policy with Israel. 

Actually, I had just finished reading an article about Romney and his increasingly neo-conservative foreign policy views and that was the tie-in to this thread about dangerous religious beliefs. If you want to think it was because I was looking for a place to inject a deep-seated hatred of Jews that you have accused me of having, then so be it. It has happened to men better than I for stating similar things.

I admitted it was somewhat off-topic and I'm sorry I posted  it now. I agree with those who suggest that we move on.

[Reub]

I seem to notice a lot of religious intolerance in some of these threads. It makes me uncomfortable.

[MediumTex]

Let's get back to talking about how Scientology is a strange and cultish organization.

We've already traveled this road on Israel in prior threads and it only leads to emotions running high with little new understanding on anyone's part.

I don't want this to be a place that raises the blood pressure.  There are enough other things in life that do that already.

[AdamA]

I don't want this to be a place that raises the blood pressure.  There are enough other things in life that do that already.

Oddly, investing is one of the only things in my life that doesn't raise my blood pressure these days! 

To me, the bad thing about Scientology is that it seems to be one of those religions that won't let you out if you realize it's not for you (i.e., you get harassed, blackmailed, threatened, etc if you try to split).

Other than that, it doesn't seem to be much different from any other religion...

...well maybe a little

http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/50719/detail/ 

(South Park's take on Scientology 2:58).

[Tortoise]

To me, the bad thing about Scientology is that it seems to be one of those religions that won't let you out if you realize it's not for you (i.e., you get harassed, blackmailed, threatened, etc if you try to split).

To be fair, weren't the Scientologists in that series of videos MT posted harassing the guy and his wife not simply because they left the church, but because they proceeded to practice and teach their own modified version of Scientology? That's what the people kept accusing them of in those videos.

I'm not saying the harassment was in any way justified; I'm just saying that in that particular case, there seemed to be more to it than simply a man and his wife leaving the church and not wanting anything to do with it anymore.

And... I couldn't help but notice that your signature is a quote from L. Ron Hubbard, AdamA. Are you a fan of his science fiction writings, but not of Scientology?