Ishmael

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AdamA
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Ishmael

Post by AdamA » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:50 pm

I recently read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn, after it was recommended by some of the other posters.

http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ht ... hp?t=98.75

I was curious to know if anyone else had read it.  I'd be very interested to hear what people thought of the interpretation given of the book of Genesis, which I thought was absolutely fascinating. 
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Re: Ishmael

Post by MediumTex » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:30 pm

It's a great book, and it's hard to argue with its logic.

We probably don't like thinking of things in the way the book invites us to, but it is true that humans tend to presuppose that the world was essentially made for us specifically to use and consume, and thus any message that suggests that this assumption may have contributed to the "fallen" nature of man is likely to trigger an ambivalent response.

"Ishmael" is that very rare book that can actually rock your world and make it hard to see things the same way after you have read it.  I don't say that lightly, and there have probably only been two or three other books that have been as chilling and challenging as this one was to me.

Unfortunately, however vivid the message is when you put the book down, it tends to fade as time passes and you fall back into the ruts of our traditional assumptions about who we are and how we got here.
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Re: Ishmael

Post by AdamA » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:25 pm

MediumTex wrote: It's a great book, and it's hard to argue with its logic.

We probably don't like thinking of things in the way the book invites us to..
I actually really liked the way he encourages his readers to think, although I may not have 2-3 years ago.  
It is pleasing because it explains things that seem unexplainable (ie, why we have so much mental illness, violence, and general discontent in our world today).  

It's also the only interpretation of any book of the bible that has ever made any sense to me, ie, a fable explaining the agricultural revolution.  

It seems like this interpretation could explain a lot of the stories in the bible.  Did Quinn write anything else about that?
MediumTex wrote:
"Ishmael" is that very rare book that can actually rock your world and make it hard to see things the same way after you have read it.  I don't say that lightly, and there have probably only been two or three other books that have been as chilling and challenging as this one was to me.

Unfortunately, however vivid the message is when you put the book down, it tends to fade as time passes and you fall back into the ruts of our traditional assumptions about who we are and how we got here.
I think it could be a very discouraging read if viewed as a "call to action."  I was happy just to hear things as he explained them, although the prison analogy is very unsettling.
Last edited by AdamA on Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ishmael

Post by rickb » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:08 pm

I read this book long enough ago that I've forgotten many of the details.  Although as I recollect, I thought at the time the interpretation it gives of the book of Genesis is somewhat fanciful and likely to be quite objectionable to the "Bible is literally true" folks. 

It is one of my all time favorite books.

If you're interested in Quinn's message, see http://www.ishmael.org/.
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Re: Ishmael

Post by Gosso » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:59 am

I just finished reading through the Wiki page on Ishmael.

Very interesting.  I'll have to add it to my reading list.

Joseph Campbell also talks about how one can become a creature of society and lose their humanity (think of Darth Vader).  Now, I'm not sure if the message from Ishmael is to completely abandon society, but Campbell stresses that one can live happily within society as long as you remember what you are (ie that your body has literally grown and is sustained by the Earth) and that you don't get too caught up in the games of society.

As for the Takers completely destroying themselves and the Earth, well, it does seem to be the path we are on.  Society is built on continued growth, so once the population and economy stop growing then I'm not sure what happens.  We either revert back to Leavers, or colonize other planets.
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Re: Ishmael

Post by Tortoise » Sun May 13, 2012 7:01 pm

Just finished the book. Fascinating read!

The Socratic method used in the dialogue throughout the book seemed a bit forced and disingenuous in a few places, but other than that, I really enjoyed the book. Thought-provoking for sure.

I had always interpreted the Garden of Eden story as being about a fantastical, semi-divine place where animals and people never died. It never occurred to me that the story might have originally been told to represent a previous way of life in human history--the hunter-gatherer (pre-agricultural) lifestyle.

The interpretation of the story of Cain and Abel along those same lines of thought was also new to me and really made me think. On some level, I've always felt that the various stories in the Old Testament--which tend to be taught these days simply as a patchwork quilt of various stories--might be pregnant with a forgotten symbolism.

I agree with AdamA that the prison analogy was unsettling, but it's a theme we've been seeing more of recently, such as in movies like The Matrix. The idea of a mental prison or a false reality is one that resonates with people on a deep level, because many of us recognize elements of it in our own reality--even if we can't quite put our finger on it. The idea isn't a new one; it's really just Plato's allegory of the cave told in a number of different ways.
Last edited by Tortoise on Sun May 13, 2012 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ishmael

Post by AdamA » Sun May 13, 2012 7:14 pm

Tortoise wrote:
I've always felt that the various stories in the Old Testament--which tend to be taught these days simply as a patchwork quilt of various stories--might be pregnant with a forgotten symbolism.
To be honest, I've always had the quilt-patchwork mentality when it comes to mythology in general. 

It (mythology) is much more interesting when you can tie the stories into how people were living at the time they were written.  Seems so much more relevant. 

Makes me want to find interesting interpretations of other myths. 
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Re: Ishmael

Post by MachineGhost » Fri May 25, 2012 6:23 am

TennPaGa wrote: * That forced education of kids is primarily done to keep them out of the workforce, and is a big waste of time, because people really only learn what the *want* to learn.
I haven't read either book, but the former part of the claim above seems highly unlikely given the specific intentions of the Prussian origins of public schooling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system
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Re: Ishmael

Post by Tortoise » Fri May 25, 2012 2:02 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
TennPaGa wrote: * That forced education of kids is primarily done to keep them out of the workforce, and is a big waste of time, because people really only learn what the *want* to learn.
I haven't read either book, but the former part of the claim above seems highly unlikely given the specific intentions of the Prussian origins of public schooling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system
That was my impression as well, MG. Compulsory, standardized education of children is one of the most important forms of social control.

The real power of authority--whether of a kingdom, a government, or a corporatocracy--comes from the public's acceptance of that authority. Without the public acceptance, there is no real power. Forced standardized education instills in children the idea of submission to authority when they are still young and impressionable.
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Re: Ishmael

Post by dualstow » Fri May 25, 2012 3:12 pm

Heavily influenced by the folks here at gyro, I ordered a copy of 'Ishmael' last week. And, I figure I need some sort of culture in my life besides Netflix's copy of 'Cowboys and Aliens' sitting on the desk right now. I'm a bit peeved that the pages are yellow when the vendor's description said "Like New", but I'm looking fwd to reading it nonetheless.
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Re: Ishmael

Post by MediumTex » Fri May 25, 2012 9:31 pm

Tortoise wrote:
MachineGhost wrote:
TennPaGa wrote: * That forced education of kids is primarily done to keep them out of the workforce, and is a big waste of time, because people really only learn what the *want* to learn.
I haven't read either book, but the former part of the claim above seems highly unlikely given the specific intentions of the Prussian origins of public schooling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system
That was my impression as well, MG. Compulsory, standardized education of children is one of the most important forms of social control.

The real power of authority--whether of a kingdom, a government, or a corporatocracy--comes from the public's acceptance of that authority. Without the public acceptance, there is no real power. Forced standardized education instills in children the idea of submission to authority when they are still young and impressionable.
Thinking back on my own childhood school experiences, I remember one time around the third grade when the teacher just about broke down and demanded to know why I wouldn't just do what she told me to do and accept what she was telling the class without having to question everything.  I wasn't articulate enough to say it this way, but what I was thinking was: "Because you are approaching my respect with a sense of entitlement and you're too lazy to do the work necessary to earn it.  Rather than seeing my sense of skepticism and intellectual independence as a positive, you are interpreting it as a failure to instill effective control, which sort of tells me that you are basically just the intellectual version of a statist thug.  You are not a producer of enhanced understanding--you are a confiscator of it.  You are to wisdom what the bureaucrat is to innovation."

Instead of speaking that truth, though, I just felt it intuitively for a moment before the discomfort of public shame overwhelmed that blip of insight and the teacher looked pleased that she had put one more boot print on the face of honest intellectual curiosity.

Aside from the outstanding contributions of 3-4 teachers I had over the years, I honestly feel like I was able to develop my mind in spite of the educators I encountered along the way, and not in any way because of them.  Very few people I ever encountered in a school really seemed to want anyone to challenge them, even though it is only through encouraging people to challenge everything that humanity makes any real progress.
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Re: Ishmael

Post by AdamA » Fri May 25, 2012 10:19 pm

MediumTex wrote: I honestly feel like I was able to develop my mind in spite of the educators I encountered along the way, and not in any way because of them.  
To this day I feel like I am having to unlearn so much of what I "learned" in school and growing up in general.  I doubt that I will ever be successful.  

Even in my professional life,  I feel like so much of what I've learned is "pseudo axiomatic" BS.  

I am glad I learned to type in high school, though, and I did have a truly gifted Calculus teacher once.  
Last edited by AdamA on Sat May 26, 2012 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All men's miseries derive from not being able to sit in a quiet room alone."

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Re: Ishmael

Post by jackely » Sat May 26, 2012 2:32 pm

AdamA wrote:
MediumTex wrote: I honestly feel like I was able to develop my mind in spite of the educators I encountered along the way, and not in any way because of them.  
I am glad I learned to type in high school, though, and I did have a truly gifted Calculus teacher once.  
Somebody on Facebook posted our old high school yearbook (class of '67) and as I was going through the pages I was able to put names to the faces of about half my classmates. Not bad, I thought, after 45 years. I hope it was a good Alzheimer's test.

What really struck me though was that not only could I not remember the names of any of the teachers, save 2, I had absolutely no recollection of them whatsoever. I thought it was kind of strange that I could go through four years of high school and none of those teachers made enough of a lasting impression on me while sitting in their classrooms that I would even remember their faces.

I would also point to typing as the most useful skill I acquired in school. A friend and I took the class on a lark because it was an all girl class at the time and I ended up finding a unique skill I didn't know I had. At one point I was up to 100wpm and I don't think the fastest girl was even half as fast. This eventually got me a desk job during Navy boot camp and has served me well in my career as a computer programmer.

And about the book, I looked into buying it on Amazon and it is one of those where the kindle edition costs more than the paperback. Never can figure that one out.
Last edited by jackely on Sat May 26, 2012 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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