Education in the Information Age

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Lone Wolf
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Re: Education in the Information Age

Post by Lone Wolf » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:44 pm

l82start wrote: i have been looking into and inspired to do some self education by the trivium education system (aka "classical education")  this site gives an overview but there are many other good videos and pod-casts on the subject available out there as well, http://www.triviumeducation.com/ it is essentially the method to teach people the necessary critical thinking and reasoning skills to learn any other subject with relative ease, and is the polar opposite of the memorize and regurgitate method of education used in modern schools throughout the world.. 
This looks interesting but intimidating!  What path did you take to get acquainted with this system?  Was there a site or podcast that you felt constituted a good introduction to the concepts?
Gumby wrote: Everyone is talking about Kahn Academy after last night's 60 Minutes broadcast...

60 MINUTES: Khan Academy: The future of education?

Truly amazing.
Thanks, Reub.  That's a good piece.  I'd seen a mention of this on my Facebook feed earlier.  Before this, I'd had no idea that these ideas were being used in actual classrooms.

The idea of "flipping" the classroom is interesting.  The idea presented in the video is that students learn the initial material at home by watching videos then perform actual classwork while they're in school with the instructor there to mentor them through it.  (Versus the classic "listen to the lecturer during the day, do homework at night, get stuck, ask parents for help" pattern.)  It's an interesting idea.  I'll be looking forward to seeing how that works in practice.  It's a pattern that could only be enabled for widespread use with this kind of tech.
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l82start
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Re: Education in the Information Age

Post by l82start » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:55 pm

Lone Wolf wrote:
l82start wrote: i have been looking into and inspired to do some self education by the trivium education system (aka "classical education")  this site gives an overview but there are many other good videos and pod-casts on the subject available out there as well, http://www.triviumeducation.com/ it is essentially the method to teach people the necessary critical thinking and reasoning skills to learn any other subject with relative ease, and is the polar opposite of the memorize and regurgitate method of education used in modern schools throughout the world..  
This looks interesting but intimidating!  What path did you take to get acquainted with this system?  Was there a site or podcast that you felt constituted a good introduction to the concepts?
i will have to look up some links to post for you later in the week when i get back to my desk top computer, i am working off my lap-top that doesn't have them bookmarked (you could probably stumble on some good ones just by Googling trivium education),
 its not as intimidating as it might seem at first, i have a personal affinity for logic so i have been brushing up on my logic as a personal starting point (much to Gosso's dismay  :P ).  there are also some great overviews of the system, and the history of modern education and the trivium education out there that i have been watching as a part of my getting started on a self education (about education),
 the trivium was the type of education that was common during the time of the United State's founding.  it is in many ways an autodidacts dream! once you have a understanding of grammar, logic and rhetoric they can be applied to any subject and used to produce a level of understanding that greatly transcends the memorization of bits of information or the memorizing of the ideas/understanding of other people,  

the tragedy and hope web site/group is a pretty good place to find information, resources and other people involved with the trivium. http://www.tragedyandhope.com/ this is a summary of the trivium from their web site http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/59477946
Last edited by l82start on Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Education in the Information Age

Post by murphy_p_t » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:27 pm

looks to me like traditional schools should be heading for extinction.

Is the idea that 20-30 students are put together to learn at the same pace an outmoded concept?
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Re: Education in the Information Age

Post by Tortoise » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:39 pm

Great thread.

Salman Khan gave a great TED talk about his Khan Academy about a year ago. That's when I first began to realize how much momentum this new approach to education was gathering.

As high-quality educational resources rapidly approach zero cost for most people, it seems to me that the new bottleneck will become time. If I could spend the majority of my day in self-directed study--free of the burden of exams, papers, and projects--I would do so in a heartbeat, because I love learning. Alas, I simply don't have the time. (I have to work for a living.)

Too much good stuff out there to learn... and far, far too little time in which to learn it.
Joe is just Biden his time now.
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Re: Education in the Information Age

Post by stone » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:08 am

Is their some truth in the idea that you don't really learn something until you have created something new and worthwhile yourself using that knowledge? Perhaps the value of educational establishments is not as libraries or as lecture courses (that can be done by the internet) but at assessing and giving expert feedback on what students produce themselves?
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
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Re: Education in the Information Age

Post by MachineGhost » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:01 am

Lone Wolf wrote: Anyone else love learning and have other recommendations to share?
The single biggest advantage of college is the networking.  This is most valuable and prized at the Ivy League schools where alumni and cronyism lasts for life, hence the huge cost premium, otherwise it is far more cost-effective and time-effective to get an online distance degree.  But, like other have said, if Generation Z/Y is lacking in social skills (and all indications so far is they are due to multitasking & IMing), then schools will need to reform into places for learning social and experiental skills over intellectual.  I think pre/kindergarten/elementary are all still crucial incubators during the critical years, but beyond that schools should increasingly reform into specialized vocational experiences.

Nowadays, responsible parents spend all their time trying to prevent their children from adopting the marketed values of society (celebritism, consumerism, materialism, instant gratification, lack of consequences to drugs/sex, etc.) as opposed to just 60+ years ago where the parents job was to make sure their children adopted the values of society (thrift, hard work, honesty, self-learning, morality, critical thinking, etc.). 

There is de facto privatization and decentralization of education occuring due to the Internet and the school choice movement.  Like any open secret, it is not widely admitted to politically, lest certain stakeholders become alarmed and riot (you know who you are!).  But, the nails are in the Prussian coffin and there is no going back.

MG
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Re: Education in the Information Age

Post by stone » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:01 am

I guess the most important job of an educator is to instill the self belief in students that they are capable of doing anything even if no one else has previously been able to. To my mind that is somewhat separate from providing information. Perhaps internet communities are also able to communicate such self belief? Obviously deluded hubris is just destructive but carried through positive accomplishment does require self belief and lack of self belief does dampen a lot of people.
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
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Re: Education in the Information Age

Post by Gosso » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:31 am

Tortoise wrote: Salman Khan gave a great TED talk about his Khan Academy about a year ago. That's when I first began to realize how much momentum this new approach to education was gathering.
That was a great TED talk.  I loved how he mentioned that the lectures can be given by YouTube videos, and then the students go back into the classroom and interact with the teacher and other students.  So what we have now is a hybrid system, where we take the best parts from both systems.

That is powerful.

I have been watching a lot of Carl Sagan videos lately, and I was thinking to myself how incredible it would be to have had watched these videos back in school.  Now would I rather have Carl Sagan teach me about the Universe or a high school teacher (no offense to high school teachers, since many were wonderful, but there were also many that weren't so great).
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Re: Education in the Information Age

Post by stone » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:36 am

Gosso, the Brian Cox TV shows might be a bit like the Carl Segan ones.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00w5mnn/episodes/guide
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Re: Education in the Information Age

Post by flyingpylon » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:43 am

MachineGhost wrote: The single biggest advantage of college is the networking.  This is most valuable and prized at the Ivy League schools where alumni and cronyism lasts for life, hence the huge cost premium, otherwise it is far more cost-effective and time-effective to get an online distance degree.
Aside from "checking the box" of getting a degree, I think this is true (very clearly true for Ivy League grads).  When I was in college the emphasis seemed to be on "gaining knowledge" but now that I've been out in the real world for a few decades I can see how important networking is.  I will emphasize that to my kids (hopefully while also distinguishing between networking and simply socializing).  Of course the internet has also opened up all kinds of opportunities for networking that didn't exist when I was in school.
MachineGhost wrote: Nowadays, responsible parents spend all their time trying to prevent their children from adopting the marketed values of society (celebritism, consumerism, materialism, instant gratification, lack of consequences to drugs/sex, etc.) as opposed to just 60+ years ago where the parents job was to make sure their children adopted the values of society (thrift, hard work, honesty, self-learning, morality, critical thinking, etc.). 
Another excellent point. Thanks.
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Re: Education in the Information Age

Post by Lone Wolf » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:38 am

l82start wrote: the tragedy and hope web site/group is a pretty good place to find information, resources and other people involved with the trivium. http://www.tragedyandhope.com/ this is a summary of the trivium from their web site http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/59477946
Thanks, looks like interesting material!
murphy_p_t wrote: Is the idea that 20-30 students are put together to learn at the same pace an outmoded concept?
It really does seem so.  People are just so different that if you try to fit them all into the same mold there is by definition a loss of efficiency as many are left behind and many are held back and bored.

One thing that the Khan Academy system allows is for it to become very obvious when a handful of students might be falling behind the pace of the rest of the class.  That would help a mentor understand where they could best focus their energies in order to get a student "unstuck".
Tortoise wrote: As high-quality educational resources rapidly approach zero cost for most people, it seems to me that the new bottleneck will become time. If I could spend the majority of my day in self-directed study--free of the burden of exams, papers, and projects--I would do so in a heartbeat, because I love learning. Alas, I simply don't have the time. (I have to work for a living.)

Too much good stuff out there to learn... and far, far too little time in which to learn it.
I totally agree.  I almost feel like mankind should be entering a sort of post-boredom phase.  I find myself less and less able to understand how a person is able to experience anything like boredom in the face of this many affordable educational opportunities and entertainment experiences.  It seems obvious that we're far more likely to run out of time well before we run out of things to see and do.
MachineGhost wrote:There is de facto privatization and decentralization of education occuring due to the Internet and the school choice movement.  Like any open secret, it is not widely admitted to politically, lest certain stakeholders become alarmed and riot (you know who you are!).  But, the nails are in the Prussian coffin and there is no going back.
I think this so too.  The trouble for me is that this is something that I want to believe and so I never quite trust my own opinion.  Am I seeing things as they are or am I just picturing the world in a way that makes me feel good?  Glad to see that I'm not alone.
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Re: Education in the Information Age

Post by Gosso » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:00 pm

l82start wrote: i have a personal affinity for logic so i have been brushing up on my logic as a personal starting point (much to Gosso's dismay  :P ).
You be Spock, I'll be Scotty. (I don't believe there are any logical fallacies in that statement...or crap was that a logical fallacy...wait is my own thinking a logical fallacy...oh no is a logical fallacy a logical fallacy...)  :D

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Also I realized my comments above were exactly the same as Lone Wolfs on the previous page...I should really read all the new posts before I post something.  :)
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