Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

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Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

Post by MediumTex »

I ran across the article linked to below comparing the way people in the U.S. think of atheists in comparison to other minority groups.  What is interesting is that apparently people find beliefs that are essentially irreconcilable but within the same paradigm (e.g., different religions with contradictory dogmas) to be far less troubling than beliefs that require an entirely different paradigm (e.g., the notion of atheism).

I do not know the nature of ultimate truth, but some of the themes that emerge from the article are surprising and thought provoking.
The issue is somewhat neglected because it’s not usually perceptible on the coasts and in the larger cities, but the almost complete absence of overt atheism is striking at all levels of US public life, even in cosmopolitan areas.
In the history of Congress, on the other hand, there has only been one avowed atheist, Pete Stark, who has represented ultra-liberal Oakland in California since 1973 but only acknowledged he did not believe in a supreme being in 2007. Even he is a member of the non-doctrinal Unitarian Church, prefers to refer to himself as “non-theist”? rather than atheist, and refused to be interviewed for this piece. This compares with at least six openly homosexual representatives.
A Gallup poll last year showed that, while 9 per cent of Americans would not vote for a Jewish presidential candidate, 22 per cent wouldn’t support a Mormon and 32 per cent would not vote for a gay or lesbian candidate, 49 per cent would refuse to back an atheist for president.
Psychotherapist Marlene Winell, who practises in Berkeley, California, specialises in “recovery from harmful religion”? and advocates religious trauma syndrome as a psychological diagnosis. “There are so many places in the US that are just saturated with religion. Everything is interwoven – their families, their schools, their business – so that if you were not part of the club, part of the group, you get ostracised and people go through really horrible experiences of not belonging any more.”? If that sounds like the experience of leaving a cult, perhaps that’s because, as Winell argues, “in its raw form, fundamentalist Christianity that believes that the Bible is the word of God is basically a giant cult.”?
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

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I was scrolling through the comments to the article, and the following two were too good not to pass along, especially given our fondness for chaps.
Atheists should just do as the gays did--start atheist dance clubs and adopt symbols that people associate with positivity like the gays did with rainbows. And, most importantly, start annual atheist pride parades in major cities...but please, no assless chaps.
All chaps are assless.
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

Post by Ad Orientem »

Atheism is something that I have a hard time grasping.  I can remember traveling all over the world in the Navy and seeing some natural wonders that took my breath away.  Even something as simple as watching sunrise in the middle of the ocean.  That's when I have the hardest time with atheism.  To believe that all of this great vast world and even vaster universe, is the consequence of some random interaction between elements hundreds of billions of years ago is a leap too far for me.  I don't think I could ever be an atheist.  I don't have enough blind faith.
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

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My parents warned me as a teenager not to tell people I was an atheist because it would be too offputting. It was essentially as "bad" as being gay and I should keep it to myself.

Now I just tell everyone. I find it humorous that in our universe, the sane people are the ones that believe in a magical dude in the sky who is watching all of us and I'm the crazy one for not believing.

Maybe a more PP-oriented approach would be index-faithing. Spend 1/10 of your time going to a Catholic Church, 1/10 going to Mormon, 1/10 at Muslim (OK OK maybe wait a few years so you don't wind up on the no-fly list). Then whichever one is "right" you earned some places in the after life.

80% of single-religious people are wrong and can't beat the index. Hedge your bets!
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

Post by jackely »

Ad Orientem wrote: Atheism is something that I have a hard time grasping.  I can remember traveling all over the world in the Navy and seeing some natural wonders that took my breath away.  
I didn't travel all over the world in the Navy but I did get to travel the length of the Mekong River many times and I got to see sights and wonders that would leave one thinking there is no God in this place.
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

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jackh wrote: I didn't travel all over the world in the Navy but I did get to travel the length of the Mekong River many times and I got to see sights and wonders that would leave one thinking there is no God in this place.
Maybe God needed you to see those things to test your faith or something. Or maybe the devil created them as illusions to trick you into not believing in God. Or maybe God has given man free will and is looking down at us hoping we use it correctly, and we did not, but he doesn't want to intervene because this is our test or something.

I'm sure if you explained your experiences to 10 religious leaders, we could get 10 "logical" explanations for why the existence of God and atrocities in this world are not mutually exclusive.
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

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Full disclosure:  I consider Jesus Christ my personal Lord and Savior.

Now as to the article, this actually makes me both a little sad, and a little indifferent.

The indifference comes from the fact that all information sources on topics like religion, race, minority groups, and other such societal topics all have an axe to grind.  As such all data is "spun" even if it is interpreted and reported accurately from a technical perspective.  I try not to get too excited about articles like this in general, I just quietly add them to my mental data bank and go on.

The sadness comes from the fact that while I detest militant members of any idea or belief, I do think there needs to be an honest and open dialog about these things.  Now there's a time and place for ridicule and parody, just because something is true doesn't mean it's not counterintuitive and counterintuitive is an ingredient of humorous, but genuine venom needs to be reserved for those who truly deserve it, and that list is actually quite small.

Do I feel a fundamental disconnect with an atheist?  On a level, yes I think it's safe to say I do, as an atheist should feel similarly disconnected from me.  I'm very Gödelian and rationalist in the way I look at it, I don't think you have to be religious at all to think there exists some god or equivalent thereof, nor do I think you have to have one iota of faith to believe in the existence of life after death. This used to vex me that rational people seem to have such diverging conclusions.

The first argument that comes up here, usually from some in the atheist camp, is that theists are not rational and then invariably the argument is reversed by some theists.  Well the problem is I can't argue for or agaisnt that, other than to say I certainly seem rational, as do most people I know who agree with me on the existence of God.  We don't seem to be sociapaths or nutters from the perspective that we have all the trappings of sane people.  A good many, probably most in fact, of my ideological counterparts seem rational by the same tests.  So I don't think it's a question of rationality.

So essentially it comes to this:  I have both transferable and nontransferable reasons for my own beliefs.  Focusing on the narrow matter of the mere existence of God or a god, I can draw on my sensory input, memories, experiences and properly basic beliefs (just as I believe in God, I believe in the past, the conscious minds of other people, that a room doesn't dissappear just because no one in s there to observe it, etc.).  It used to vex me that I use this kind of approach to verify other things I believe in or don't believe in and it seems so arbitrary that no one questions my belief that my waffle iron exists but that some would question belief in deity.

But when I thought about it some more over the years, I realized that some information has a transferable evidential equivalent, and some doesn't.  Sure I can cite a bunch of arguments and I can even get nonbelievers to capitulate to their logical consistency, but none of this is equivalent to taking in the entirety of what I perceive and realize.

I have no doubt in my own belief but this does mean I have to realize I don't have their perspective either, so me repeating the information I am capable of relaying ad nauseum is ultimately ineffective; it is best that I am honest about what I think and respect others who are honest even if they do not agree with me.  I do believe I have a moral imperative to help others relate better to God (that is to accept salvation), but I don't see that as a social wedge, filter or litmus test.  It bothers me a lot that people use this as some kind of test of who is suited to receive their social sanction.

You have to realize some if not most people don't want to listen to you, everyone is in a different place with God and ultimately it is personal and unique to them.  The main reason I do mention my own ideas it when it comes up is I believe that it could be someone is lacking a critical piece of information that their own schema needs, and I might supply it.  For all I know they might need information of many different types from various sources, just because I never see a sudden conversion from my own efforts doesn't mean I have no obligation to witness.

But it should stop there at the point of sharing ideas and saying yes I do not agree with you, even though there is a disconnect there, that's no reason to not give that person any respect otherwise due.  I personally have gotten to a point where I realize I have my own problems that God is going to walk me through, that's where my energy goes, not to judging other people who are in a different place than I am.  That said I am human and sometimes the Westboro people make me so mad I can't even see straight.  The way you carry yourself in this matters, better to be quietly and plainly spoken and respectful of the life situations of others and where that might put them spiritually than boorish and insistent upon forcing your moral paradigm on others.

The strongest morals and beliefs are those which have buy in from individuals who adopt them internally and practice them voluntarily.  You should never create social pressure to externalize these beleifs because in so doing you erode the quality of your own religious ideas.  In other areas of life I can compromise in this, but when it comes to someone's eternal salvation there can be no room for compromise, they must accept it genuinely and not just go through the motions of a faith that is ultimately hollow for them.  As far as will people want to, well I just think they will, and that's why it's called faith.  It honestly makes me sad there's people out there who feel like they can't be honest, because that actually moves them away from where I think they need to go.

All this said, fault lies everywhere.  I feel like a minority in my own belief too and regularly have to roll my eyes at being told I believe in fairy tales and Santa Claus by people who don't bother to adequately relate to my own frame of reference.  To some people it doesn't matter what else I have done, can do, etc., the fact I think there's a God makes me an idiot and that's the end of the story for them.  This is madness.  The use of religious belief as some kind of social test is a bad idea no matter the crtiteria.  It's just as popular and socially acceptable to put negative social pressure on people who do believe in God in my opinion.  This social paradigm is just as needless and a waste of energy however it is applied.
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

Post by stone »

I guess I'm an atheist by default rather than by conviction. I agree the universe is astonishing but my astonishment doesn't help me to connect with any religion. Isn't a lot of religion about community and tradition rather than an objective assessment of the physical world? Perhaps people don't like atheists because they see atheists as being preoccupied with trying to make objective assessments of the physical world rather than having community and  tradition as their paramount concerns?
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

Post by MediumTex »

shoestring, that's an outstanding post.

Thank you for taking the time to articulate your thoughts so fully.

I wish that there were more opportunities for people to have actual discussions (rather than arguments) involving matters about which there is deep disagreement.  When you are certain you are right about something it can be very hard to maintain a steely respect for someone who sees things in a fundamentally different way. 
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

Post by Gosso »

I think hardcore atheists have just as bad a reputation as religious fundamentalist, at least the out spoken atheists.  And as proof I turn to South Park, where they describe how Richard Dawkins comes off as "bitchy".

(Warning: Contains a few f-bombs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rB0TaZq ... re=related
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

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I like the audacity of what Thomas Jefferson did with the gospels of the life of Jesus Christ.

Jefferson went through and teased out of the narrative of Jesus's life as recorded in the gospels what he considered to be the essence of Jesus's message and teachings, sans all supernatural elements.  I believe that Jefferson felt that Jesus's followers had embellished the story of his life in the decades following his death in the same way that many followers of religious prophets tend to do, and simply put this aside and considered whether Jesus's philosophy could stand or fall on its own merits, and without the need for validation through supernatural means.

Here it is if you want to check it out:

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

In my case, I was raised a Christian and I find Jesus's message as recorded in the gospels to be a sturdy model for living one's life.  In particular, I find Jesus's emphasis on turning away from worldliness, being gentle and loving toward others, being humble in general, and recognizing the harm that can be caused by institutional religious and political bureaucracies to be essentially true based upon my own experience.  I recognize that Jesus was not the first to teach some of these things, but it was the tradition I was brought up in, and thus it was through the teachings of Jesus that I first heard them.

I see myself as fundamentally a Christian in that I consider myself to be a follower of Christ.  To me, though, what it means to follow Christ is to take the teachings of Jesus and follow them in my own life and see whether or not they work in the way Jesus suggested they would (in my case I have found that they work well).

When, however, you overlay supernatural elements with the basic teachings of Jesus, things get more complicated.  Now you have a whole set of ideas that challenge our rationality, are un-provable, require enormous faith to believe completely, and are subject to erosion at all times.  I have seen many people come to Christianity, begin to question the supernatural elements, and gradually fall away as their rationality finally couldn't assimilate the supernatural ideas.  Often such people never really focused that much on fully internalizing Jesus's teachings into their lives, so distracting are the supernatural elements. 

Any time I talk to someone about religion I don't ask them to believe in anything supernatural.  I just ask them to look at the teachings themselves, try the teachings in their own lives, and see how it works.  If the teachings work in practice, perhaps they may choose to look into the supernatural elements when they are more mature in their faith if that's what they choose to do.  For me, I have found the requirement that I believe in something supernatural that was recorded by another human being to be distracting and frustrating (on what basis could I conclude that the person who wrote it down in the first place wasn't mistaken?).  I would rather work within the parameters of the world in which I live and use the rationality that helps me define my own consciousness to guide me.  In other words, I think that the teachings of Jesus provide a well-reasoned rationale for essentially being "good" that stands on its own without needing additional supernatural proof of its truth.

If someone tells me that I am supposed to believe something because someone wrote it down 2,000 years ago without any other confirmation of its truth or accuracy, I think it's reasonable to ask for more proof.  If someone asks me why I need more proof than the statement of a handful of scribes from 2,000 years ago I would tell them because God made me skeptical of unsubstantiated claims and I believe he made me this way for a reason.  Even though this is my take on things, I don't mean to suggest that people who come to different conclusions or who arrive at different beliefs based upon their own experiences are wrong.  I'm just sharing what makes sense to me.

What frustrates me is when I feel that I am diligently following the teachings of Jesus and this pursuit is providing a sense of wholeness and purpose to my life and someone wants to basically say "You're not doing it right."  I want to say "But how do you know you're not the one who isn't doing it right?"  When I have such discussions I am always reminded of Jesus's suggestion when he was advising the mob preparing to stone the adulteress that perhaps the ceremonial first stone should be thrown by someone who was without sin in their own lives.

I always liked Dave Barry's line about how people who want to share their religion with you almost never want you to share your religion with them.
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

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RE the Jefferson Bible, here is an interesting excerpt from a letter Jefferson wrote to a friend echoing some of the ideas I was touching on in the past above.

In some of the delightful conversations with you in the evenings of 1798-99, and which served as an anodyne to the afflictions of the crisis through which our country was then laboring, the Christian religion was sometimes our topic; and I then promised you that one day or other I would give you my views of it. They are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed, but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others, ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other.
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

Post by TripleB »

Why is it that if someone talks to God that's OK but if God talks back then you're pathologically psychotic and can be involuntarily committed in all 50 states?

Or maybe I'm confusing correlation with causation and God only talks to crazy people?

I want to start a religion that says conception begins even before sex, and if I go on a date with a girl and she refuses to put out, that is murder because she's denying the life of our future child. And then if anyone ridicules me, I shall claim persecution.
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

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TripleB wrote: Why is it that if someone talks to God that's OK but if God talks back then you're pathologically psychotic and can be involuntarily committed in all 50 states?

Or maybe I'm confusing correlation with causation and God only talks to crazy people?

I want to start a religion that says conception begins even before sex, and if I go on a date with a girl and she refuses to put out, that is murder because she's denying the life of our future child. And then if anyone ridicules me, I shall claim persecution.
People throughout history have sought experiences in which they feel they are communing with something greater than (or at least outside of) themselves.

I'm inclined to cut people some slack when they talk about their religious experiences.
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

Post by jackely »

TripleB wrote: Maybe God needed you to see those things to test your faith or something.
I didn't have much faith to test back then but we did practice a nightly religious ritual up on the flying bridge passing around our smoking version of the communion wafer. I do recall moments thinking that there really is a God.
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

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stone wrote: I guess I'm an atheist by default rather than by conviction. I agree the universe is astonishing but my astonishment doesn't help me to connect with any religion. Isn't a lot of religion about community and tradition rather than an objective assessment of the physical world? Perhaps people don't like atheists because they see atheists as being preoccupied with trying to make objective assessments of the physical world rather than having community and  tradition as their paramount concerns?
I wonder if there is a subtle confusion between atheism and agnosticism for many. I choose the latter. I actually find it kind of beautiful and uplifting to know that this feeble human brain of mine cannot know God. But experience, yes. And we typically describe this experience as being one of awe, connection, love, or compassion. It is an experience of loss of ego, of our essential non-self. Perhaps it is that experience that you are referring to when you use the word "astonishing." And it is this experience that all religions point to. But, similar to many of you, when dogma sets in, I run the other way.
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

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jackh wrote: I didn't have much faith to test back then but we did practice a nightly religious ritual up on the flying bridge passing around our smoking version of the communion wafer. I do recall moments thinking that there really is a God.
People who take fairly large doses of psilocybin (the active ingredient in "magic mushrooms") or dimethyltryptamine (DMT) routinely report having other-worldly experiences that seem remarkably coherent, usually "more real than this reality." The details of their experiences are often uncannily similar to some of the encounters with God or angels described in the Christian Bible, the Koran, etc.

One way to look at the concept of the supernatural is to consider the possibility that there are many real dimensions to reality, and that we simply have not evolved the capability to perceive all of them quite yet. Some primitive organisms have only a single sense: light/dark. More complex organisms can experience various forms of touch, a bit more visual definition, various forms of sound/sonar, etc. Humans have evolved five senses: sight, sound, taste, smell, and touch. How would one describe sound and taste to a primitive worm that can only sense light? Maybe that's the frustration people feel when they have "religious" experiences and attempt to communicate them to others who have not had the same type of experience.

If humans are continuing to evolve, what we currently call the supernatural may represent other dimensions of reality that nearly everyone will be able to perceive someday. Perhaps the human brain evolved to maximize the chances of survival only in this limited subset of reality, and as such is a type of "filter" that hides various dimensions of reality from us to keep us focused on physical survival and prevent us from being overwhelmed. Certain psychedelic substances and extreme states of mind may have the effect of temporarily removing some of that "filtering." Maybe call it "changing the channel" or "tuning in to a different frequency."
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

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Tortoise wrote:
jackh wrote: I didn't have much faith to test back then but we did practice a nightly religious ritual up on the flying bridge passing around our smoking version of the communion wafer. I do recall moments thinking that there really is a God.
People who take fairly large doses of psilocybin (the active ingredient in "magic mushrooms") or dimethyltryptamine (DMT) routinely report having other-worldly experiences that seem remarkably coherent, usually "more real than this reality." The details of their experiences are often uncannily similar to some of the encounters with God or angels described in the Christian Bible, the Koran, etc.

One way to look at the concept of the supernatural is to consider the possibility that there are many real dimensions to reality, and that we simply have not evolved the capability to perceive all of them quite yet. Some primitive organisms have only a single sense: light/dark. More complex organisms can experience various forms of touch, a bit more visual definition, various forms of sound/sonar, etc. Humans have evolved five senses: sight, sound, taste, smell, and touch. How would one describe sound and taste to a primitive worm that can only sense light? Maybe that's the frustration people feel when they have "religious" experiences and attempt to communicate them to others who have not had the same type of experience.

If humans are continuing to evolve, what we currently call the supernatural may represent other dimensions of reality that nearly everyone will be able to perceive someday. Perhaps the human brain evolved to maximize the chances of survival only in this limited subset of reality, and as such is a type of "filter" that hides various dimensions of reality from us to keep us focused on physical survival and prevent us from being overwhelmed. Certain psychedelic substances and extreme states of mind may have the effect of temporarily removing some of that "filtering." Maybe call it "changing the channel" or "tuning in to a different frequency."
I have traveled the roads of which you speak and I completely agree with you.

Aldous Huxley's "Doors of Perception" fleshes out this idea more fully.  Huxley described the process of suddenly seeing the significance of things when in a certain state of mind.

When one enters certain states of mind, the idea of arguing about anything seems totally ridiculous.  It would be like arguing about whether the sun was rising as you saw it begin to come up over the horizon.
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

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MediumTex wrote: Aldous Huxley's "Doors of Perception" fleshes out this idea more fully.  Huxley described the process of suddenly seeing the significance of things when in a certain state of mind.

When one enters certain states of mind, the idea of arguing about anything seems totally ridiculous.  It would be like arguing about whether the sun was rising as you saw it begin to come up over the horizon.
Along these lines, a book that will completely blow your mind is Dr. Rick Strassman's DMT: The Spirit Molecule: A Doctor's Revolutionary Research Into the Biology of Near-Death and Mystical Experiences.
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

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Tortoise wrote:
MediumTex wrote: Aldous Huxley's "Doors of Perception" fleshes out this idea more fully.  Huxley described the process of suddenly seeing the significance of things when in a certain state of mind.

When one enters certain states of mind, the idea of arguing about anything seems totally ridiculous.  It would be like arguing about whether the sun was rising as you saw it begin to come up over the horizon.
Along these lines, a book that will completely blow your mind is Dr. Rick Strassman's DMT: The Spirit Molecule: A Doctor's Revolutionary Research Into the Biology of Near-Death and Mystical Experiences.
I read a few reviews.  Looks like a great read.
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

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I will say that psilocybin will make you see your place in the universe, and how insignificant all of your daily worries and concerns are, in the grand scheme of things.  And then, you will laugh at yourself, and feel truly liberated.  I think a few mushroom caps can literally undo years of stress and psychological hang-ups.

In fact, Steve Jobs said "Doing LSD was one of the two or three most important things I have done in my life."
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

Post by stone »

I must admit that my view is that reality is very under-rated. I've never taken any drug other than tea but I have had psychosis as a medical condition which apparently is a state of mind like psychadelic drugs (or extended binges of stimulants) bring about. In my opinion it is crap (excuse my French). There is a time and place for mangled states of consciousness and it is called dreaming when your are asleep. We have a wonderful world full of wonderful people. Being able to experience that just as it is, is a gift that is well worth cherishing IMO. Not being able to discern it through a morass of psychosis was for me unmitigatedly horrible.

I have also wondered whether the "prophets" of the major religions may simply have been mentally ill people. Perhaps the vast bulk psychotic ramblings were the "false prophets" and those tiny minority who had the good fortune to speak something that struck a chord may have been the "good prophets". I suppose a bit like how with dreams, Martin Luther King had a dream that was informative but most people's dreams are just of teeth falling out, or surprise maths exams or forgetting to get dressed before going shopping or whatever :) .
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

Post by Lone Wolf »

Great stuff.  This thread is an embarrassment of riches and it's difficult to know where to start.

First of all, shoestring, outstanding post!  Thanks very much for sharing that.
MediumTex wrote: Jefferson went through and teased out of the narrative of Jesus's life as recorded in the gospels what he considered to be the essence of Jesus's message and teachings, sans all supernatural elements.
...
Any time I talk to someone about religion I don't ask them to believe in anything supernatural.  I just ask them to look at the teachings themselves, try the teachings in their own lives, and see how it works.
Great perspective on the Jefferson Bible, something I'd always viewed as not much more than a quirky little Jeffersonian weekend project.  "Hey, didja know that Jefferson took a pair of scissors to his Bible to edit out the parts that he thought were made up?"

But what you wrote has given me a different view.  If you're a person whose mind recoils from supernatural ideas, separating supernatural and philosophical material would be downright enervating.

How likely would I have been to adopt the Permanent Portfolio if the text of "Fail-Safe Investing" had been filled with discussions about leprechauns, "Hollow Earth", Norse mythology, and hoop snakes?
MediumTex wrote:
Tortoise wrote: People who take fairly large doses of psilocybin (the active ingredient in "magic mushrooms") or dimethyltryptamine (DMT) routinely report having other-worldly experiences that seem remarkably coherent, usually "more real than this reality." The details of their experiences are often uncannily similar to some of the encounters with God or angels described in the Christian Bible, the Koran, etc.
I have traveled the roads of which you speak and I completely agree with you.
Storm wrote: I will say that psilocybin will make you see your place in the universe, and how insignificant all of your daily worries and concerns are, in the grand scheme of things.  And then, you will laugh at yourself, and feel truly liberated.  I think a few mushroom caps can literally undo years of stress and psychological hang-ups.
You folks just get more interesting every day.  And talk about raising the bar!  After this, who's going to want to hear my stories about experimenting with caffeine?  :)
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Gosso
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

Post by Gosso »

MediumTex, have you reviewed any of the non-canonical gospels that were discovered in 1945 at Nag Hammadi in Egypt?  One of the most important and complete texts found was the Gospel of Thomas.  I think the Jesus portrayed in this Gospel would match very well with your image of him.  All the supernatural stuff is stripped away and all that is left are the sayings of Jesus.  A link to the text is below.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

For a while I tried to become a "Red Letter" Christian, but became distracted by the back story of the supernatural and was also confused by the messages coming from the church.  Things just didn't add up, and I lost my passion for it.  I then tried to look into Gnostic Christianity, but got lost in the maze of all the texts.

Now I have kinda fallen into a new-age-hippy-you-are-the-universe.  But I'm pretty sure I won't stop here, and I have much more to learn regarding life, the universe and God.  I will definitely check out The Jefferson Bible.
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stone
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Re: Financial Times Article on "Closeted" Atheists

Post by stone »

Gosso, I saw a TV program about the St Thomas Christians is India. Apparently when the Portuguese first arrived and told the Indians that they had come to spread Christianity; the Indians introduced the Portuguese to the St Thomas Christians who had been established in India by St Thomas who had actually known Jesus personally. Apparently St Thomas restricted evangelism to targeting the tiny Indian Jewish community. The Portuguese viewed the St Thomas Christians as heretics and burnt their books.
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
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