Overshoot

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Re: Overshoot

Post by sixdollars »

Nothing has caused me more cognitive dissonance than overshoot / peak oil.  It's weird, but I find myself flip flopping between not caring about overshoot and peak oil, to caring too much.  It's like when I read about it, it makes so much sense that I cannot logically refute it.  The big picture takeaway is extremely depressing and makes me wonder about the timing and if I should even bother worrying about it.  Part of me thinks that there's not really much you can honestly do anyway, so it's best not to worry... the other part of me thinks that it's stupid to just do nothing.

After a few months of not reading anything about it, it's like it goes to the back of my mind and I no longer fear it or think it relevant anymore.  I sometimes think this is my brain in denial employing a natural defense mechanism.  Does anyone else have this happen? Just me?

The problem is, I have yet to hear a convincing argument against overshoot/peak oil that didn't involve high levels of cargoism... I'm waiting though.  I actually spent a good amount of time trying to find analyses that could persuasively refute overshoot/peak oil, sadly, I found none that were very convincing.

I hear that a lot of people are attracted to this sort of narrative because it's thrilling doomer porn, but I honestly can't fathom why anyone would WANT to believe in overshoot or peak oil, it's pretty depressing.  I'd much rather NOT have heard about it at all to be honest.  It's like when Morpheus offers the blue pill vs. the red pill.  Just take the damn blue pill..  ;D
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Re: Overshoot

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It definitely spurs pessimism about the big picture.

New sources of cleaner energy are great, but I think we also will have to adjust some of our consumption downwards (in this country).  I saw an analysis that to sustain a world population at about a European standard of living (which is less consumptive than ours), we'd need about 2 billion people, and we currently have about 8 million.

In the past, diseases, pandemics and wars, combined with people dying at a younger age served to keep population a bit more balanced.  But we've eradicated a lot of diseases and controlled outbreaks so they don't become pandemics, our technology is letting us wage wars without as many soldiers dying, and medicine is keeping us alive longer.

All of those are good things from smaller perspectives, but possibly bad from a larger perspective.

On a local level, our electric company has just made it possible to get all of our electricity from wind generation for a very small extra fee - 25 cents per 100 kilowatt hours.  I definitely want to sign up for that soon.
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Re: Overshoot

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sixdollars wrote: Nothing has caused me more cognitive dissonance than overshoot / peak oil.  It's weird, but I find myself flip flopping between not caring about overshoot and peak oil, to caring too much.  It's like when I read about it, it makes so much sense that I cannot logically refute it.  The big picture takeaway is extremely depressing and makes me wonder about the timing and if I should even bother worrying about it.  Part of me thinks that there's not really much you can honestly do anyway, so it's best not to worry... the other part of me thinks that it's stupid to just do nothing.

After a few months of not reading anything about it, it's like it goes to the back of my mind and I no longer fear it or think it relevant anymore.  I sometimes think this is my brain in denial employing a natural defense mechanism.  Does anyone else have this happen? Just me?

The problem is, I have yet to hear a convincing argument against overshoot/peak oil that didn't involve high levels of cargoism... I'm waiting though.  I actually spent a good amount of time trying to find analyses that could persuasively refute overshoot/peak oil, sadly, I found none that were very convincing.

I hear that a lot of people are attracted to this sort of narrative because it's thrilling doomer porn, but I honestly can't fathom why anyone would WANT to believe in overshoot or peak oil, it's pretty depressing.  I'd much rather NOT have heard about it at all to be honest.  It's like when Morpheus offers the blue pill vs. the red pill.  Just take the damn blue pill..  ;D
My belief is that human intelligence evolved to be finely attuned to environmental, cultural, economic, etc. changes that occur within one human lifetime.  The reason for this evolutionary adaptation is that there is ZERO survival advantage to being able to detect and address problems that don't occur within a single lifetime (how could there be a survival advantage to a certain type of brain if it didn't actually help the individual himself survive?).

So my starting point is that human intelligence can be staggering in its grasp of concepts, nuance, subtlety, etc., but it has blind spots, and one of those blind spots is long term processes that are not easily observable, but which nevertheless affect a species' survival.  A popular one now is, of course, climate change, and what you see with people in many cases is a complete inability to grasp why it matters to them, and all sorts of culturally filtered rationalizations for why it isn't a big deal. 

Throughout the history of every species, there are always environmental limitations that normally prevent them from doing too much damage to their habitat and other species, and the long term survival of a species is normally a function of the ongoing suitability of their environment. 

With humans, though, it's a little different.  We have systematically overwhelmed every natural barrier that would have otherwise kept us in any kind of steady state with our environment.

- We have moved to the top of the food chain and then mostly transcended it (though we are still working on wiping out the dangerous germs).

- We have hunted all potential predators to the brink of extinction, and we keep the remaining cute ones in zoos.

- We have conquered hunger to the point that starvation is more of a political tactic than a serious environmental threat for most humans alive today.

In other words, we have conquered our environment in a comprehensive way, and the effort is ongoing.  We think of this as a triumph and a tribute to our massive intelligence.

But what if that whole framework is misplaced?  What if we are not actually a meaningful culmination of organic life at all?  What if every step we took out of our natural habitat and stasis with nature took us one step closer to extinction, even though we thought it was doing just the opposite?

If we as a species were basically destroying ourselves through the destruction of our environment, would we know?  I would suggest that for a person with no cultural lenses it would be obvious that if you kill all the animal life, stress the soil, pollute the waterways, grow your population exponentially, etc. it would be obvious that your species was experiencing its last gasps, but there are no people without cultural lenses.  We all see things through the values and beliefs that make up our cultural operating system. 

The real problem IMHO is that we have a cultural operating system that doesn't allow us to see the error in the way we are interacting with our habitat.  Since our cultural lenses are what allow us to make sense of the world, it's very hard to take them off for any reason, even if it's a good reason.  What this leads to is sound arguments like peak oil and overshoot running into a messy web of cultural beliefs about the "specialness" of the human species, and how our species are not subject to the same processes that govern all other life.  That's where cargoism comes into the picture and acts almost like a religion in many people's minds.

If a person is able to allow the truth of these dark messages to get past their cultural filters, it often just creates a sense of despair because when the problem is viewed clearly it becomes obvious that there is no solution other than the human species suffering the same fate that every other dominant species in history has suffered when environmental changes cause their habitat to no longer be conducive to their own survival. 

Seeing too far into the future can be a depressing experience.  When no one is really interested in knowing what the future holds, it can also be an isolating experience.

I've always thought that the next ice age would clear away the delusions associated with modern humanity and its fascination with industrial capitalism, and that's going to happen whether we cut back on burning fossil fuels and reproducing or not.  It's just a question of whether it happens 400 years from now or 40,000 years from now.  These time periods are blips in geological time, though, so it really doesn't matter whether we wreck ourselves or get wrecked by a bunch of ice, the end result is the same: the human species will likely become extinct in the future, and our total time inhabiting this earth will be the equivalent of staying a couple of nights in a 100 year old hotel and imagining that it belongs to you because you have a key to your room and the workout center.  It's just hubris.

Will we travel to other planets and live there?  Doubtful.  The fact that simply getting to our own moon took a monumental effort in a society with enormous surpluses and we only did it a few times makes me think that humans are probably safer on earth than they would be anywhere else.  We evolved to live here, with this air, with this solar radiation, with this gravity.  We are earthlings.  To go live on a new planet (assuming you could find one) you would need not just enormous lead times, technology that doesn't exist, and gigantic surpluses to commit to such a project, but you would also need a level of cohesion and cooperation across the whole human species that has never occurred at any time in our history.  And it still might not work.

I think what is better to do is to focus on the present, this moment, and do what you can in that space.  Like our own personal deaths, the death of our species is also just part of life.  We shouldn't dread the realization of the mortality of our own species; rather, we should celebrate the fact that we ever existed at all (as we should do with ourselves individually).

The hole you don't want to fall into is what you might call "species nihilism", or perhaps "cultural nihilism", where you begin to feel a sense of futility over everything, not just your own life.  That's a heavy burden to carry, and you have to ask yourself some serious questions: Why does it matter what I think about any of this stuff?  What value is there in ruining my own peace of mind over something that I'm not even supposed to know about?  After all, I'm only supposed to know about bad things that can happen in a single lifetime.  That's what I evolved to deal with.  That's what I am optimized for.

When thinking about how to metabolize all of these ideas, I like how Anton Chigurh put it: Let me ask you something. If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?  I think that's good advice for each individual, as well as a subtle criticism of the entire life support system that we have created for ourselves.
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Re: Overshoot

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sixdollars wrote: Nothing has caused me more cognitive dissonance than overshoot / peak oil.  It's weird, but I find myself flip flopping between not caring about overshoot and peak oil, to caring too much.  It's like when I read about it, it makes so much sense that I cannot logically refute it.  The big picture takeaway is extremely depressing and makes me wonder about the timing and if I should even bother worrying about it.  Part of me thinks that there's not really much you can honestly do anyway, so it's best not to worry... the other part of me thinks that it's stupid to just do nothing.

After a few months of not reading anything about it, it's like it goes to the back of my mind and I no longer fear it or think it relevant anymore.  I sometimes think this is my brain in denial employing a natural defense mechanism.  Does anyone else have this happen? Just me?
You are not alone.  Sometimes, the thought that we are ruining the planet really bothers me.  Those are usually the days where I walk to the store and don't drive at all.  Other times, I just shrug, and drive around in my SUV.  At the end of the day though, it's like worrying about the sun swelling up and swallowing the Earth;  it is definitely going to happen, but WTF can you do?  I purposely didn't have any kids, so I feel like I did my part to reduce the damage.  Hey man, you're living in the greatest country in the history of mankind at the peak of civilization, it's all good! -passes the bong to you-
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Re: Overshoot

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Austen Heller wrote:
sixdollars wrote: Nothing has caused me more cognitive dissonance than overshoot / peak oil.  It's weird, but I find myself flip flopping between not caring about overshoot and peak oil, to caring too much.  It's like when I read about it, it makes so much sense that I cannot logically refute it.  The big picture takeaway is extremely depressing and makes me wonder about the timing and if I should even bother worrying about it.  Part of me thinks that there's not really much you can honestly do anyway, so it's best not to worry... the other part of me thinks that it's stupid to just do nothing.

After a few months of not reading anything about it, it's like it goes to the back of my mind and I no longer fear it or think it relevant anymore.  I sometimes think this is my brain in denial employing a natural defense mechanism.  Does anyone else have this happen? Just me?
You are not alone.  Sometimes, the thought that we are ruining the planet really bothers me.  Those are usually the days where I walk to the store and don't drive at all.  Other times, I just shrug, and drive around in my SUV.  At the end of the day though, it's like worrying about the sun swelling up and swallowing the Earth;  it is definitely going to happen, but WTF can you do?  I purposely didn't have any kids, so I feel like I did my part to reduce the damage.  Hey man, you're living in the greatest country in the history of mankind at the peak of civilization, it's all good! -passes the bong to you-
-accepts the bong, loads, operates, exhales, looks off into the distance-

Yeah.  It's pretty cool here.  It's not perfect, but it's pretty good.  I've got some new headphones that sound amazing.
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Re: Overshoot

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When asked what he would do if he knew he were to die tomorrow, Martin Luther responded  "plant a tree".

In "7 Habits of Highly Effective People" Covey has a similar thought.  Stay in your circle of influence, not your circle of concern.

Peak oil, climate change, are all self correcting problems anyway, if indeed they really are problems.

And, for many of us life does not end at physical death.

What to do in the interim?  Love your neighbor.  Use your talents to help them.  Focus on your family and friends.  Be joyful for the gifts you have been given.

It's all good.  ;D

... M 
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Re: Overshoot

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Well, one can also try to live in a way that reduces one's own environmental footprint, and support efforts of those to reduce the destruction of the environment.

We use about half of the average amounts of water and utilities, and live quite comfortably and "normally" in a smallish single story house.

There are groups like TerraPass that you can support which reduce greenhouse gases.

Solar panels and wind generation of electricity are good.  Our local electric utility makes it very easy to buy wind power now.

Composting, recycling and buying more local produce are also good ideas.  There's a CSA where we live that we like a lot, in which local farmers supply produce every week.

It's true that the very big picture is out of our hands, and that nature will eventually "self-correct", and that getting depressed or upset about that doesn't help anything/anybody, but that doesn't mean we can't try to act more sustainably in our own lives.
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Re: Overshoot

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MediumTex wrote: My belief is that human intelligence evolved to be finely attuned to environmental, cultural, economic, etc. changes that occur within one human lifetime.  The reason for this evolutionary adaptation is that there is ZERO survival advantage to being able to detect and address problems that don't occur within a single lifetime (how could there be a survival advantage to a certain type of brain if it didn't actually help the individual himself survive?).

....

I think what is better to do is to focus on the present, this moment, and do what you can in that space.  Like our own personal deaths, the death of our species is also just part of life.  We shouldn't dread the realization of the mortality of our own species; rather, we should celebrate the fact that we ever existed at all (as we should do with ourselves individually).

The hole you don't want to fall into is what you might call "species nihilism", or perhaps "cultural nihilism", where you begin to feel a sense of futility over everything, not just your own life.  That's a heavy burden to carry, and you have to ask yourself some serious questions: Why does it matter what I think about any of this stuff?  What value is there in ruining my own peace of mind over something that I'm not even supposed to know about?  After all, I'm only supposed to know about bad things that can happen in a single lifetime.  That's what I evolved to deal with.  That's what I am optimized for.

When thinking about how to metabolize all of these ideas, I like how Anton Chigurh put it: Let me ask you something. If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?  I think that's good advice for each individual, as well as a subtle criticism of the entire life support system that we have created for ourselves.
Damn MT, that was a pretty awesome post.  Thank you.

You quoted Hubbert earlier.  I think he estimated that 80% of the oil would be consumed by 2032.  You mentioned earlier that you think that shale oil may have shifted the oil profile by about 10 years.  Do you think that is equivalent to moving that 2032 date back to 2042?  Even though this is just an estimate, this would still put the peak of oil production within many of our lifetimes and it would likely occur well before that year.  If we have to live in a world that requires growth but have to deal with decreasing supplies of oil, wouldn't that become extremely problematic?  My biggest concern is that oil is so crucial to current methods of mass food production - I have a hard time seeing how that could end well.

I understand your logic if it's a far out event that isn't likely to affect us directly.  I'm not worried because of species nihilism so much as I am sometimes worried that life might get pretty rough in our own lifetimes (for reference, I'm 24 - If i were 50+ maybe I would care less).  Life seems like it would be a lot easier on the uphill side of the oil production curve.  The downhill portion doesn't look like a fun party at all.

I agree with you though...  Dwelling over it doesn't do much good and it would be far more enjoyable to just focus on the present.  I actually hadn't thought about this topic in a while until I saw some of these old threads resurface  :P
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Re: Overshoot

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Has anyone read the book The Rational Optimist?

http://www.amazon.com/Rational-Optimist ... l+optimist
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Re: Overshoot

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From an individualist standpoint, MT is right... the degradation of our culture or species or morals or superiority or economy shouldn't cause us chronic stress.

However, if we ARE going to have debates around what the government should do and why it should do it, it certainly serves us to do so in the proper context, if nothing else than for the purpose of debate.

And in the context of government being at its best when it's protecting us from threats that the private-sector can't do efficiently, or engaging in basic services that the private sector may not be so good at, realizing that we are essentially sewing our own destruction is of even more importance, but in-terms of deciding what the government DOES do (engaging in environmental protections), as well as what it SHOULDN'T do (allocate massive amounts of resources to "terrorism," putting tons of police on the streets to stop victimless crimes, etc, etc).

I may not lose sleep over global warming, but debates about what government should or shouldn't do is never going to fit perfectly within our HB-esque stoicism and will always focus on stuff we can't control.  We can either choose to permanently abandon political debates, or we can choose to engage in civil discourse under the presumption that between the mental stimulation it offers and the "duty" we kinda sorta feel we have to at least have an opinion on stuff and put some pressure on those we elect, that we are going to focus on certain issues and debate them.

What I often see folks do (including me, to a degree) is debate with fervor something they deem to be of importance for some reason at the governmental level.  Something outside their control.  Something they REALLLLY want to change, but can't.  Then, when someone makes a valid argument about something on the opposite end of their political radar (and often forces some cognitive dissonance due to it implying they should support a candidate that is an enemy to your "pet cause") they switch to an individualist mind-set. 

"Don't worry about global warming... we're all gonna decline someday." 

"If you don't think high taxes are morally valid, why don't you move somewhere else."

"If you're worried about affordable healthcare, go out there and find a job to get it."

These individualist suggestions are actually not bad suggestions.  But they're a bit of a bait and switch, sometimes.  As soon as we get into a realm of debating political topics, we're now in the potentially unhealthy realm of debating things we have no influence over.  All of us are.  Not just the guy suggesting we do something about global warming, but the guy who wants to see a "business-friendly" president get elected, or who wants to see nuclear energy & bullet trains become commonplace, or who wants a single-payer healthcare system.

If we're in this realm, and as soon as someone makes an argument that trumps yours, you say "well move out of Manhattan if you think the oceans are rising," you've engaged in what I think is sort of an unfair discussion tactic... even though it's one I know I've used on multiple occasions.  Sometimes fairly, given how my "opponent" is debating about the nature of our options as individuals, and sometimes unfairly, where you're subconsciously probably just trying to "apply to personal responsibility" while just making a veiled Ad Hominem.

Great post, though, MT... not trying to take away from that.  Your analysis is pretty spot on.
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Re: Overshoot

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Okay, I've read the whole book. It was fun, albeit extremely repetitive. The chapter on ecology and life systems in particular was really neat, and the idea that societies also experience succession just like ecosystems is a thought-provoking one. But I got a very "Austrian Economics" vibe from the whole book. It's so neat and tidy, with every historical event being explainable using the author's perspective, using such moralistic critiques of any who disagree. It's telling you The One True Theory That Explains Everything If Only Everybody Would See It That way.

Time and again I found myself reading a bold claim, casually thrown out there, that sounded right until I really started to think about it. Like the supposed relationship between violence and the crowding of the planet… except that global rates of violence--both crime and war--have been continuously falling since records have been kept.

Or the assertion that within the lifetimes of people living in 1973, the world would run out of easily accessible oil, as evidenced by rising EROEI, and yet here we are 43 years later with oil under $30 a barrel, so cheap and plentiful that the president has called for a tax to make it more expensive!

Or the casual dismissal of renewable energy generation methods as "Cargoist." Well, news flash to Catton: the transition is in the middle of happening right now! Solar PV and wind have achieved grid parity and then some: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_parity
It is now cheaper to add solar PV and especially wind generation capacity in many parts of the USA than it is to construct a coal-fired power plant. In fact, 68% of the new electric capacity added last year was solar PV or wind: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... -u-s-power

As much pessimism as Catton expresses for the capacity to technologically innovate our way out of the problem, in the 40 years since he wrote the book, we've been doing just that, and the trajectory is definitely positive.  I think Catton would have been totally floored by the notion of solar PV and wind economically outcompeting coal. In fact his glib dismissal of the possibility of solar PV is entirely content-free:
Almost never is consideration given to the possibility that taking over some additional fraction of the solar flux that now drives the world's climate might produce ecosystem changes detrimental to human interests. All that "unused" sunlight is assumed to be "available."
What exactly is the criticism? I can't find one. Just a nebulous fear of change. But it hardly matters since we're doing it anyway, with no ecological consequences so far, and it turns out we don't need to be bludgeoned over the head with ecological guilt-tripping that people won't respond well to anyway. All you really need do is unleash the power of capitalism on the problem and then people's short-term interests become aligned with what would be best for the long-term--which is exactly what we're seeing today.

A few pages later, his true argument surfaces:
It was enough of a misstep to have committed ourselves to drawing down non-living resources; it would be a double folly if we were to become any more committed to consuming renewable resources faster than their rate of renewal.
How exactly do you consume solar energy faster than the sun produces it? It seems like Catton hasn't actually given this technology any thought at all, because this argument is nonsensical. You could say this about biomass energy from burning wood, but not solar PV. When the sun doesn't shine, it doesn't make any electricity--full stop. The concept simply doesn't make any sense; there is no way to unsustainably consume solar irradiance.

I could go on with more individual critiques since there are ton of these kinds of things throughout the book, but I think I've made my point. Catton wants to look at everything through an ecological lens and it very much seems like he ignores the technological and economic ones. And it's a shame, because these lenses show options that can very much be both good for the planet and good for the bottom line. Oregon, Washington, and Maine get more than 66% of their electricity from hydroelectric tidal generation that produces zero carbon-based pollution and consumes no fossil fuels. The grid is being solarized and wind-ified the world over. Catton's doom and gloom just doesn't seem realistic in the face of all the changes that have happened since he wrote the book. To put it in Cattonian, ecological terms, my general argument is that humanity appears to be now in the midst of raising the Earth's carrying capacity to match the overshoot. In time, it won't be an overshoot anymore. I guess I'm a "Cargoist," but it seems like the world empirically supports it pretty well.
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Re: Overshoot

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I agree that technology and increased efficiencies can help - and the strange quote about consuming renewable sources of energy too fast seems very odd, as you point out.

But I'm not sure we can "Star Trek" our way out of the problem completely, and it would be good to remember that we're part of nature and depend on it, rather than being separate from it.

The best approach seems to me would be a combination of more mindful consumption and use of better, cleaner renewable energy sources, along with some family planning.

If you look at population charts, the angle of population growth in the last century and a half is extremely striking, and very out of balance with the historical numbers.
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Re: Overshoot

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Pointedstick wrote: But I got a very "Austrian Economics" vibe from the whole book. It's so neat and tidy, with every historical event being explainable using the author's perspective, using such moralistic critiques of any who disagree. It's telling you The One True Theory That Explains Everything If Only Everybody Would See It That way.
...

All you really need do is unleash the power of capitalism on the problem and then people's short-term interests become aligned with what would be best for the long-term--which is exactly what we're seeing today.
"to unleash the power of capitalism" is about as concise a summary of Austrian economics as I could imagine. So I'm having trouble seeing how these two statements aren't contradictory.
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Re: Overshoot

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jafs wrote: But I'm not sure we can "Star Trek" our way out of the problem completely, and it would be good to remember that we're part of nature and depend on it, rather than being separate from it.
Maybe if you just "Star Treked the shit out of it".
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Re: Overshoot

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Libertarian666 wrote: "nleash[ing] the power of capitalism" is about as concise a summary of Austrian economics as I could imagine. So I'm having trouble seeing how these two statements aren't contradictory.


Well I don't think Austrian economics is all wrong! In fact I think most of it is right on the money. Most of it. ;) But I don't think the entire thing falls apart if it isn't 100% correct about everything. The vibe I'm talking about is the "we're completely right about everything and anyone who disagrees just doesn't understand it or is an idiot" undertone that you can get when reading Austrian economics books. Overshoot had a very similar tone.
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Re: Overshoot

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I think that what's going on here is people are wearing different generational lenses.  For anyone who lived through the 1970s, they will immediately recognize Catton's somber tone and serious concern for the future.  Lots of people felt that way back then, and Catton's work is like a concentrated and bottled version of the general sentiment, or "malaise", of the time.

It's easy to sit here in 2016 and point out that Catton need not have been concerned about the 30 year period following the date Overshoot was published because everything has worked out pretty good on the energy front. 

My understanding of Catton's analysis, though, has always been that it isn't so much a set of predictions as a challenge to look more deeply into many of our strongly held beliefs about our species and ourselves. 

What's the first thing you think when you look at the chart below?  Does "sustainable" come to mind?

Image

On to the important question, which is whether Pointedstick is a Cargoist.
Pointedstick wrote: Okay, I've read the whole book. It was fun, albeit extremely repetitive. The chapter on ecology and life systems in particular was really neat, and the idea that societies also experience succession just like ecosystems is a thought-provoking one. But I got a very "Austrian Economics" vibe from the whole book. It's so neat and tidy, with every historical event being explainable using the author's perspective, using such moralistic critiques of any who disagree. It's telling you The One True Theory That Explains Everything If Only Everybody Would See It That way.

Time and again I found myself reading a bold claim, casually thrown out there, that sounded right until I really started to think about it. Like the supposed relationship between violence and the crowding of the planet… except that global rates of violence--both crime and war--have been continuously falling since records have been kept.
The fossil fuel powered wars of the 20th century were by far the most deadly in history.  Do you disagree?
Or the assertion that within the lifetimes of people living in 1973, the world would run out of easily accessible oil, as evidenced by rising EROEI, and yet here we are 43 years later with oil under $30 a barrel, so cheap and plentiful that the president has called for a tax to make it more expensive!
The price of oil is a market concept, while EROEI is a scientific concept.  Catton was mostly right about declining EROEI of existing oil fields.  Here is what the U.S. profile looks like:

Image
Or the casual dismissal of renewable energy generation methods as "Cargoist." Well, news flash to Catton: the transition is in the middle of happening right now! Solar PV and wind have achieved grid parity and then some: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_parity
It is now cheaper to add solar PV and especially wind generation capacity in many parts of the USA than it is to construct a coal-fired power plant. In fact, 68% of the new electric capacity added last year was solar PV or wind: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... -u-s-power.
I hear what you are saying, but here is what it sounds like from a distance:

Image
As much pessimism as Catton expresses for the capacity to technologically innovate our way out of the problem, in the 40 years since he wrote the book, we've been doing just that, and the trajectory is definitely positive.  I think Catton would have been totally floored by the notion of solar PV and wind economically outcompeting coal.
A person in 2008 would have been floored by that concept.  I don't blame Catton for being suspicious of it in the late 1970s.

Image
A few pages later, his true argument surfaces:
It was enough of a misstep to have committed ourselves to drawing down non-living resources; it would be a double folly if we were to become any more committed to consuming renewable resources faster than their rate of renewal.
How exactly do you consume solar energy faster than the sun produces it? It seems like Catton hasn't actually given this technology any thought at all, because this argument is nonsensical. You could say this about biomass energy from burning wood, but not solar PV. When the sun doesn't shine, it doesn't make any electricity--full stop. The concept simply doesn't make any sense; there is no way to unsustainably consume solar irradiance.
Renewable resources can be strained just like non-renewable resources can be strained.  The point he makes about the theoretical effect of covering the earth with solar panels is not nonsensical.  If you intercepted a significant portion of the solar radiation that is now reaching the earth's surface for energy production, it would affect the stability of the earth's current ecosystem.

I think that the point Catton was trying to make was simply that there is no free lunch when it comes to energy harvesting and storage, even if it seems otherwise.
I could go on with more individual critiques since there are ton of these kinds of things throughout the book, but I think I've made my point. Catton wants to look at everything through an ecological lens and it very much seems like he ignores the technological and economic ones.
I think that Catton might say that for an organic life form, the ecological lens is the only lens that matters.
And it's a shame, because these lenses show options that can very much be both good for the planet and good for the bottom line. Oregon, Washington, and Maine get more than 66% of their electricity from hydroelectric tidal generation that produces zero carbon-based pollution and consumes no fossil fuels. The grid is being solarized and wind-ified the world over.
I feel like you are doing the Cargoist equivalent of speaking in tongues.  :)

Here is a macro view of renewable electricity production in recent years:

Image

There's been some nice growth there overall.  It's gone from 9.4% to 13.1% of our total production over the 13 year period in the chart, which is impressive, but it's still a niche segment of an overwhelmingly fossil-fuel oriented production system.
Catton's doom and gloom just doesn't seem realistic in the face of all the changes that have happened since he wrote the book. To put it in Cattonian, ecological terms, my general argument is that humanity appears to be now in the midst of raising the Earth's carrying capacity to match the overshoot. In time, it won't be an overshoot anymore. I guess I'm a "Cargoist," but it seems like the world empirically supports it pretty well.
Does it?

Image

Remember that "carrying capacity" is a measure of what an ecosystem can support based upon renewable resources more or less in perpetuity (for our purposes, let's say for 10,000+ years).

Does the chart above suggest that we have increased carrying capacity, or does it suggest that we have developed better technology for exploiting non-renewable sources of energy?

***

Let me lay something heavy on you:

Modern humans are a fossil fuel byproduct.

Without fossil fuels, modern humans wouldn't exist.

Fossil fuels are the hardware and industrial capitalism is the software.  Humans consume what the system produces.

Image

(Or maybe that's just the 1970s in me coming out.  ;) )

...or maybe not:

Image
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Re: Overshoot

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Pointedstick wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote: "to unleash the power of capitalism" is about as concise a summary of Austrian economics as I could imagine. So I'm having trouble seeing how these two statements aren't contradictory.
Well I don't think Austrian economics is all wrong! In fact I think most of it is right on the money. Most of it. ;) But I don't think the entire thing falls apart if it isn't 100% correct about everything. The vibe I'm talking about is the "we're completely right about everything and anyone who disagrees just doesn't understand it or is an idiot" undertone that you can get when reading Austrian economics books. Overshoot had a very similar tone.
Ok, so what part of Austrian economics do you (and what part don't you) agree with?
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Re: Overshoot

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MediumTex wrote:
What's the first thing you think when you look at the chart below?  Does "sustainable" come to mind?

Image
My first thought is "How in the heck do they absolutely know what the population was that far in the past?"  I just FEEL there was a large continent in the unseparated waters between sky and abyss heavily populated (25+ billion) by long-gone silicon based Martians who ate coral and burned sand for fuel.  After that continent ascended to the heavens and took it's place in our solar system as the planet Mars, there was no earthly proof it ever existed, but I just FEEL it did.  It all happened long before MT's ancestors crawled out of the slime and establshed a Permanent Portfolio.  Who needs proof?  Good gosh man, faith in science for things that cannot now be proven, that is the only way to eat your Wheaties, not to mention boat floating!  ;)

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Re: Overshoot

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MediumTex wrote: What's the first thing you think when you look at the chart below?  Does "sustainable" come to mind?

Image
A technological advancement over time chart would follow a similar course. It's our technological prowess that is making such growth sustainable.
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Re: Overshoot

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Jack Jones wrote:
MediumTex wrote: What's the first thing you think when you look at the chart below?  Does "sustainable" come to mind?

Image
A technological advancement over time chart would follow a similar course. It's our technological prowess that is making such growth sustainable.
You don't think that the sudden appearance of an incredibly elegant form of dense, cheap and portable energy had anything to do with the rate of technological change?

An explosion in technological development fueled by a one time allotment of fossil fuels leads to growth that is anything but sustainable.
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Re: Overshoot

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Hopefully in those 7B+ brains that we now have will be the intelligence to unlock fusion, travel to other planets, etc, etc.  We have the potential, and hopefully we can make something of it before we blow ourselves up or get wiped out by some epidemic or global catastrophe.

If anyone has not run into this website, I suggest reading the posts I have linked below.  Along with that exponential rise in population comes an exponential rise in our intelligence, and at some point artificial intelligence may either get us to the next level or the robots will kill us...

http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificia ... ion-1.html

http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificia ... ion-2.html
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Re: Overshoot

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If I could paraphrase, MT, it seems as if you buy into Catton's general thesis, even if maybe some of his individual arguments aren't perfect, while I reject it, as evidenced by those individual arguments not holding water to me.

All of the visual aids you introduced are pretty interesting, and they tell us a variety of stories, for sure. It's undeniable that fossil fuels are limited and that their exploitation has propelled human population and technology forward very quickly. But here's my general belief: as sources of those resources become scarce, their rising price and falling availability will automatically force a switch to solar and wind, principally, and others where appropriate (hydro, geothermal, biomass, etc). To me, this is self-evident: in every market, once prices rise, alternatives become more attractive and themselves develop to be better and cheaper as more people commit to them.

Can you explain to me why you don't think this will happen with energy, if I've understood you correctly? I don't understand why energy would be an exception to this general pattern.
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Re: Overshoot

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MediumTex wrote:
[img width=500]http://energyskeptic.com/wp-content/upl ... tion-2.png[/img]
Here are some other correlations that provide unquestionable truth.  ;D

http://twentytwowords.com/funny-graphs- ... -pictures/

I particularly liked "Tech Expenses and Suicide", correlation over 0.99.

Point is, statistics can "prove" most anything.  MT, I'm not really poo-pooing what you presented, just having a bit of fun.

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Re: Overshoot

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MediumTex wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: Time and again I found myself reading a bold claim, casually thrown out there, that sounded right until I really started to think about it. Like the supposed relationship between violence and the crowding of the planet… except that global rates of violence--both crime and war--have been continuously falling since records have been kept.
The fossil fuel powered wars of the 20th century were by far the most deadly in history.  Do you disagree?
I do disagree. They were the deadliest in terms of absolute human death toll, but in terms of relative death toll--casualties as a percentage of the human population--they're not even close. The winners there would be the Mongol conquest of Asia and the Taiping Rebellion, both of which killed between 14 and 17% of the total human population at the time. No fossil fuels required, just steel and flesh. The An Lushan Rebellion ranks up there too, although whether it's worse proportionally than all others or simply in the top 5 is still up for debate. Other contenders worse proportionally than World War II would be the Middle East slave trade, the fall of the Ming Dynasty, the fall of Rome, the Native American genocide, and the Atlantic slave trade.

Sources:
https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-most ... on?share=1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... death_toll
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Re: Overshoot

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Pointedstick wrote: If I could paraphrase, MT, it seems as if you buy into Catton's general thesis, even if maybe some of his individual arguments aren't perfect, while I reject it, as evidenced by those individual arguments not holding water to me.

All of the visual aids you introduced are pretty interesting, and they tell us a variety of stories, for sure. It's undeniable that fossil fuels are limited and that their exploitation have propelled human population and technology forward very quickly. But here's my general belief: as sources of those resources become scarce, their rising price and falling availability will automatically force a switch to solar and wind, principally, and others where appropriate (hydro, geothermal, biomass, etc). To me, this is self-evident: in every market, once prices rise, alternatives become more attractive and themselves develop to be better and cheaper as more people commit to them.

Can you explain to me why you don't think this will happen with energy, if I've understood you correctly? I don't understand why energy would be an exception to this general pattern.
I'm not MT, but I also have grave doubts about renewables filling in.

The problem is EROEI, which is far higher with fossil fuels than with renewables. In cases where that ratio is less than 1, it doesn't matter how high energy prices go, because you will never get out more energy than you put in.
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