Overshoot

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Re: Overshoot

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Tortoise wrote: What I'm getting at is this: maybe nature designed the Earth's fossil fuel deposits as a temporary "springboard" for intelligent life's next big evolutionary leap. If human civilization is not a tumor that the Earth is actively attempting to rid itself of, might this "springboard" scenario be a possibility per Gould's theory of punctuated equilibria?
Isn't that a bit like a couple of dinosaurs standing around a huge clump of vegetation and saying: "You see all this vegetation?  It's here to springboard us to our next evolutionary step.  In the future, we will still rule the world, but our brains will be larger than the size of a raisin and we will have much better technology.  One day, a group of dinosaurs will even visit the Moon."

I think that there is more than a little hubris in that view of things.

Even if fossil fuel deposits were here to facilitate humanity's next leap forward, they won't last nearly long enough in evolutionary time to make any difference.  From start to finish the fossil fuel age will probably be no longer than 400 years or so.

I think what we are seeing is more akin to what happens when you drop a sugar cube into a vat of yeast, except Mother Nature dropped a sugar cube of fossil fuels into a vat of humans.
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Re: Overshoot

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Stone and MT, I think that most likely you're right that fossil fuels are to humans as a sugar cube is to a vat of yeast. I offered the "springboard" hypothesis mainly to play devil's advocate and motivate some discussion.
MediumTex wrote: Even if fossil fuel deposits were here to facilitate humanity's next leap forward, they won't last nearly long enough in evolutionary time to make any difference.
Not necessarily--not if evolution is accelerating exponentially. So much technological progress has happened in the past century that I can't even begin to fathom what the next 400 years might look like. As I hinted at in my previous post, "evolutionary time" may be significantly speeding up if evolution is now manifesting itself directly through human action and human culture rather than indirectly through natural selection and random mutations.
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Re: Overshoot

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Tortoise wrote: Stone and MT, I think that most likely you're right that fossil fuels are to humans as a sugar cube is to a vat of yeast. I offered the "springboard" hypothesis mainly to play devil's advocate and motivate some discussion.
MediumTex wrote: Even if fossil fuel deposits were here to facilitate humanity's next leap forward, they won't last nearly long enough in evolutionary time to make any difference.
Not necessarily--not if evolution is accelerating exponentially. So much technological progress has happened in the past century that I can't even begin to fathom what the next 400 years might look like. As I hinted at in my previous post, "evolutionary time" may be significantly speeding up if evolution is now manifesting itself directly through human action and human culture rather than indirectly through natural selection and random mutations.
Are you talking about cultural and sociological evolution or biological evolution?

As Catton argued, industrialization has clearly spawned a new species that he called homo colossus, but that is, to me, more of a cultural and economic species, as opposed to a new biological species.

I think that humans have probably had the same raw cognitive abilities that we have now for thousands of years.  It's not that we are getting smarter.  Rather, through the preservation of past knowledge that the written word provides us, and the near unlimited capabilities to use that knowledge that cheap fossil fuels have provided us, we have been able to take the same cognitive engine in the form of the human brain and do a lot more with it.

The process above, however, seems quite different from us actually getting smarter or otherwise biologically more well-adpated to our environment.
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Re: Overshoot

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MediumTex wrote: Are you talking about cultural and sociological evolution or biological evolution?
The former, along with technological evolution. Although our biology has not changed appreciably in thousands of years, what we are beginning to see is human intelligence taking the evolutionary reins by starting to directly modify and upgrade itself and other organisms. Genetically modified crops, gene therapy, prosthetics, implantable brain chips... the examples are numerous and rapidly multiplying.

In fact, such basic technological developments as antiseptics have allowed millions of people to live who otherwise would have been weeded out by Mother Nature at a very young age. Also, consider all the people on this planet who wear corrective lenses: what chance of survival would they have had before eyeglasses were invented? Most of them would have been much more likely to be eaten by predators and would have been at a huge disadvantage in hunting and gathering their food.

In these ways, technology has allowed us to transcend some of our biological limitations. Humans no longer need natural selection in the traditional sense to evolve biologically. We create tools to evolve ourselves. Our tools allow us to do rapidly what used to take evolution and geological processes millions of years to do. If I didn't know better, I would be tempted to think that the purpose of this accelerating process might be to transfer evolution from the realm of biology into the realm of technology. After all, isn't technology really just biology in disguise--a natural expression of biology at a higher, more abstract level?

Human civilization's drawdown of fossil fuels may be ecologically similar to a sugar cube dropped into a vat of yeast, but I think at the very least it's much more interesting to observe and discuss :) It is probably hubristic to claim that humans are exempt from Mother Nature's laws, but I don't consider it hubristic to recognize the plain fact that humans are remarkably special in some pretty important ways.

(By the way, I'm leaving on vacation and hope to re-join this discussion if it's still going when I return in about a week.)
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Re: Overshoot

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Tortoise, have a great vacation!

I'm not sure that humans are better off now than we were in the past.  More people starved in 2009 than ever before. All the advances you describe are enjoyed by a small fraction of the 7B people on earth. Even for those few people at the apex of the rapacious globalised human enterprise, modern life misses many things that make life most worth while. I've seen a couple of TV programs where jungle tribes people were shown around the modern UK. They seemed distinctly unimpressed and I think with some justification. Basically they seemed non-plussed as to how we could be so stupid to put up with living as we do (stuck in doors all day, not seeing our old people or children much, having vast amounts of cluttering pointless stuff etc etc).

About corrective vision- apparently elderly eskimos who grew up staring into the horizon looking for distant seals didn't develop short sightedness. The subsequent generations who grew up reading and watching TV did just as much as us (I'm very short sighted myself).
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Re: Overshoot

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Tortoise wrote: In these ways, technology has allowed us to transcend some of our biological limitations. Humans no longer need natural selection in the traditional sense to evolve biologically. We create tools to evolve ourselves. Our tools allow us to do rapidly what used to take evolution and geological processes millions of years to do. If I didn't know better, I would be tempted to think that the purpose of this accelerating process might be to transfer evolution from the realm of biology into the realm of technology. After all, isn't technology really just biology in disguise--a natural expression of biology at a higher, more abstract level?
Bingo.  Intelligence changes the equation in remarkable ways.

While I'm not at all certain that flesh and blood humans will travel out to the stars, I believe that intelligences in durable bodies (our "descendants") will do so.  I'd be surprised and disappointed if the intelligent descendants of humanity didn't move onward in some fashion for millions and millions of years.  Evolution alone doesn't get you to that level of development in any reasonable timeframe.
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Re: Overshoot

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For anyone who would like to read an excerpt from "Overshoot", here is chapter 2:

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/5874

Here is chapter 3:

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/6069
Last edited by MediumTex on Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Overshoot

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I'm resurrecting this awesome topic.

Having read the two free chapters (going to pick up the whole book too), I'll admit I'm not convinced of the problem. Consider the following passage:
If gasoline and other fossil fuels had been thirteen times as costly, we would never have fallen into the trap of reorganizing our social systems around their abundant use. Our overcommitment to dependence on fossil acreage was the result of the temporarily low cost of energy from antiquity. Because the low cost was temporary, it was an unrealistic basis for a way of life.
This suggests that the signals sent by a market pricing mechanism do their job; the only problem was an inaccurate price. If high market prices are capable of dissuading people from over-consuming a precious and non-renewable resource, then honestly I don't see the need for any doom and gloom. Because we already have that market pricing mechanism and it already works. If fossil fuels become scarce at a price that they can be profitably extracted, then their price will rise so high that a huge variety of alternatives will become cost effective. This is the same problem I have with peak oil enthusiasts--there's no magical cliff we fall off that makes industrial society suddenly collapse; if fossil fuels become scarce, they become expensive, and expensive things are avoided. Since the book was written, we've had 36 years of development in the fields of alternative energy, particularly solar PV. In 1980, the installed cost of solar PV was somewhere around $15/watt in 1980 dollars. Today throughout the developed world it's $2-4/watt in 2016 dollars before government subsidies--a huge decline in price. At this price level, some fossil fuels in markets with strong environmental regulations are already struggling to compete economically. Markets with high electricity prices are seeing substantial customer installation of solar PV.

There is no reason why anything stationary that is currently powered with fossil fuels cannot be switched over to electrically-powered motors, hydraulic compressors, and the like. An example is the transition from coal-powered blast furnaces to electric arc furnaces. The electric ones are generally better, in fact. Sure they require huge amounts of electricity, but for an electricity grid that comes to be supplied by an increasing fraction of non-fossil-fuel sources, it hardly matters. If your house has a gas furnace, water heater, range, and dryer, you can (and should, long-term) switch all those over to electric versions that do basically the same thing. Plastics in consumer products can largely be replaced with other materials, like wood (renewable), metal (100% recyclable), or ceramics, glass, and masonry (super-abundant and recyclable). Those applications absolutely requiring plastic will probably rise in price, but the plastics can be provided by what fossil fuel reserves remain, or biofuels. These are solved problems.

It seems to me that the biggest challenges are transportation and fertilization. Fossil fuels dominate transport, particularly aerospace, because of their energy density. You can't wire a plane up to a power plant, and achieving the equivalent electrical energy storage with batteries will require the kind of huge increase in weight that is antithetical to the design and operation of an airplane. Luckily, there's an obvious solution: less air travel, more rail travel. Trains can be and many already are fully electrified. The USA lags behind in this infrastructure but we can fix it easily should the need or political will ever arise. Our industrial capacity is vast and our technical expertise is unmatched. We can do it. Private cars aren't too hard to imagine, either. Probably there will be fewer of them and people will live in more clustered urban areas served by more public transit, and the private cars that people do own will all be electric. We're already getting there. In just a few years, the price of these vehicles has fallen to a realistic level. And there's no problem with an electric tractor carrying huge batteries.

That leaves fertilizer. It's definitely a problem. But modern farms only need intensive fertilization because of wasteful farming techniques that are destructive to soil health. I bet there are lots of clever ways we can work around this by learning or re-learning to plant cover crops that add nitrogen, phosphorous, and potassium back to the soil. Techniques like no-till farming are also making a comeback, and there are ways to grow "food forests" that are incredibly nutrient-dense, far higher than modern farming.

Regardless, global population seems to be moving towards some kind of equilibrium anyway. Population growth rates are near or under replacement for a large part of the world (Europe, north and south Americas) Once Asia and Africa catch up to this trend, the total human population will level off.

Maybe Catton would describe all of this as "cargoist", but it's already happening. Does he address any of this in other chapters of the book?
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Re: Overshoot

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Pointedstick wrote: I'm resurrecting this awesome topic.

Having read the two free chapters (going to pick up the whole book too), I'll admit I'm not convinced of the problem. Consider the following passage:
If gasoline and other fossil fuels had been thirteen times as costly, we would never have fallen into the trap of reorganizing our social systems around their abundant use. Our overcommitment to dependence on fossil acreage was the result of the temporarily low cost of energy from antiquity. Because the low cost was temporary, it was an unrealistic basis for a way of life.
This suggests that the signals sent by a market pricing mechanism do their job; the only problem was an inaccurate price. If high market prices are capable of dissuading people from over-consuming a precious and non-renewable resource, then honestly I don't see the need for any doom and gloom. Because we already have that market pricing mechanism and it already works. If fossil fuels become scarce at a price that they can be profitably extracted, then their price will rise so high that a huge variety of alternatives will become cost effective.
Here's the problem with that analysis: If the market signals arrive too late, the market cannot make the appropriate adjustments, given that alternatives have LONG lead times for development and the buildout of needed infrastructure.
This is the same problem I have with peak oil enthusiasts--there's no magical cliff we fall off that makes industrial society suddenly collapse; if fossil fuels become scarce, they become expensive, and expensive things are avoided. Since the book was written, we've had 36 years of development in the fields of alternative energy, particularly solar PV. In 1980, the installed cost of solar PV was somewhere around $15/watt in 1980 dollars. Today throughout the developed world it's $2-4/watt in 2016 dollars before government subsidies--a huge decline in price. At this price level, some fossil fuels in markets with strong environmental regulations are already struggling to compete economically. Markets with high electricity prices are seeing substantial customer installation of solar PV.
All of that is true, but it's still nibbling around the edges.  For the most part, we still get electricity from coal, natural gas and nuclear.  Two out of those three are fossil fuels, and the other one presents a set of legacy environmental challenges that will persist into the future for longer than human civilization has even existed.  If at any point in the next few thousand years things fall apart in a way that makes nuclear power plant maintenance a problem, you've got a big mess on your hands.
There is no reason why anything stationary that is currently powered with fossil fuels cannot be switched over to electrically-powered motors, hydraulic compressors, and the like. An example is the transition from coal-powered blast furnaces to electric arc furnaces. The electric ones are generally better, in fact. Sure they require huge amounts of electricity, but for an electricity grid that comes to be supplied by an increasing fraction of non-fossil-fuel sources, it hardly matters. If your house has a gas furnace, water heater, range, and dryer, you can (and should, long-term) switch all those over to electric versions that do basically the same thing. Plastics in consumer products can largely be replaced with other materials, like wood (renewable), metal (100% recyclable), or ceramics, glass, and masonry (super-abundant and recyclable). Those applications absolutely requiring plastic will probably rise in price, but the plastics can be provided by what fossil fuel reserves remain, or biofuels. These are solved problems.
The electricity currently comes overwhelmingly from fossil fuels.  I don't see that switching to electricity solves anything the way things are currently configured.  Wind and solar are never going to provide uninterrupted electricity.  Something will have to supplement these sources.
It seems to me that the biggest challenges are transportation and fertilization. Fossil fuels dominate transport, particularly aerospace, because of their energy density. You can't wire a plane up to a power plant, and achieving the equivalent electrical energy storage with batteries will require the kind of huge increase in weight that is antithetical to the design and operation of an airplane. Luckily, there's an obvious solution: less air travel, more rail travel. Trains can be and many already are fully electrified. The USA lags behind in this infrastructure but we can fix it easily should the need or political will ever arise. Our industrial capacity is vast and our technical expertise is unmatched. We can do it. Private cars aren't too hard to imagine, either. Probably there will be fewer of them and people will live in more clustered urban areas served by more public transit, and the private cars that people do own will all be electric. We're already getting there. In just a few years, the price of these vehicles has fallen to a realistic level. And there's no problem with an electric tractor carrying huge batteries.
The basic problem with your line of thinking is that you are talking about exchanging a far less efficient set of power sources and storage technology for one that is astonishingly well-suited for the kind of world economy we have built.  Fossil fuels are amazingly versatile and cheap.  Their high technology replacements are not.  All economic activity based upon a cheap energy input business model basically stops once the energy inputs needed to operate it become more expensive than the projected value of the economic activity itself.
That leaves fertilizer. It's definitely a problem. But modern farms only need intensive fertilization because of wasteful farming techniques that are destructive to soil health. I bet there are lots of clever ways we can work around this by learning or re-learning to plant cover crops that add nitrogen, phosphorous, and potassium back to the soil. Techniques like no-till farming are also making a comeback, and there are ways to grow "food forests" that are incredibly nutrient-dense, far higher than modern farming.
I'm not as concerned about fertilizer as you are.  My concern is more than the entire industrial agriculture apparatus we have is basically a giant fossil-fuels-to-food conversion process.  It's all oriented around fossil fuels: fertilizer, tractors, trucks, irrigation systems, delivering crops to market, etc.  It all runs on fossil fuels.
Regardless, global population seems to be moving towards some kind of equilibrium anyway. Population growth rates are near or under replacement for a large part of the world (Europe, north and south Americas) Once Asia and Africa catch up to this trend, the total human population will level off.
The leveling off is still leveling off at a level that is massively higher than any human population in all of our history.  What's worse is that the economic system we have created to provide goods, services, food and medical care to this large population is a system that must constantly be growing.  An economy with structural constraints that prevents its continued expansion doesn't function very well at all.  See Japan, U.S., Germany, etc. for examples of sputtering economies due, in part, to unfavorable demographic trends.
Maybe Catton would describe all of this as "cargoist", but it's already happening. Does he address any of this in other chapters of the book?
It's certainly cargoist thinking to imagine that wind, solar, hydro, nuclear and whatever else could ever replace fossil fuels.  That's not to say that it couldn't happen, but I think this is where our magical thinking around a kind of techno-theism comes into play.  We don't think of it that way because it is the religious tradition most of us grew up in (even though we probably didn't think of it as a religious tradition).

Overall, I would say that you just have to read Catton's entire analysis and see where it leaves you.  It's well worth the investment, though, even if you don't come away from it agreeing with all of his conclusions.

I would also say that this isn't a topic that lends itself to resolution, but is more like material for a discussion with no simple answers, and credible and legitimate points on both sides.

I've been having this conversation now for about 12 years, and the one thing that I have seen over and over among the optimists is a belief in the promise of technology that has many "cargoist" overtones, primarily arising from a lack of understanding of how much new technology depends on access to cheap sources of energy to develop it.

I have always thought that this topic was the most important topic of our time, but I sort of got tired of talking about it because it's such a downer, and people rarely want to make the investment it takes to really see the issue clearly without the rose colored lenses of the past century of amazing technological development (which happened to coincide more or less exactly with easy access to cheap fossil fuels).

The thing to remember, too, when thinking about wind and solar is that these energy sources basically involve "harvesting" current sunlight and sun-related atmospheric changes.  With fossil fuels, however, we are essentially drawing down millions of years of accumulated sunlight trapped under the earth in the form of carbon-rich vegetation that has been cooked into this amazing source of power that can be used to power almost anything.  The problem is that it's a one-time allotment.  Once it's gone, it's gone.  There is a lot of it to be sure, and there is a lot more to be found, but it's still a non-renewable resource, and the fear is that we have created a set of cultural beliefs and expectations that presuppose cheap and easy energy is NOT a non-renewable resource when, in fact, it is.
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Re: Overshoot

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Here is how the godfather of peak oil, Shell geologist M. King Hubbert, explained it to Congress in 1974:
The earth and its biological inhabitants comprise an evolving system in which various of its components change in magnitude with time. To describe these changes we may use the term "growth'' in a generic sense as being synonymous with change. Thus a given quantity may be said to exhibit positive growth if its magnitude increases with time, negative growth if it decreases with time, and zero growth if it remains constant.

Two terms applicable to an evolving system are of fundamental importance. These are steady (or stationary) state and transient state. A system is said to be in a steady state when its various components either do not change with time, or else vary cyclically with the repetitive cycles not changing with time. A system in a transient state is one whose various components are undergoing noncyclical changes in magnitude, either of increase or decrease.

[...]

The growth phenomena with which we are at present concerned are almost exclusively of the transient kind. Three types of transient growth are illustrated in Figure 1. This figure is drawn with a time base extending from the year 1800 to beyond 2100 during which some quantity is assumed to grow in one or the other of the three modes shown.

[...]

Another fundamental property of uniform exponential growth is the following. If the logarithm of the quantity is plotted graphically as a function of time, or if the quantity is plotted on semilogarithmic paper, the resulting graph will be a straight line whose slope is proportional to the growth rate. Conversely, a straight-line graph of the growth of a quantity, when plotted on semilogarithmic paper, indicates a uniform exponential growth.

A second type of growth is that shown in Curve II of Figure 1. Here the growing quantity increases exponentially for a while during its initial stage, after which the growth rate starts to slow down until the magnitude of the quantity finally levels off to some fixed maximum quantity. After this the growth rate becomes zero, and the quantity attains a steady state. Examples of this kind of growth are afforded by biological populations and by the development of water power in a given region. The population of any biologic species, if initially stationary, will respond to changed conditions in a manner indicated by Curve II, or conversely by its negative analog. That is, the population in response to a disturbance will either increase exponentially and then level off to a stable maximum, or else decrease negative-exponentially and finally stabilize at a lower level, or perish.

A third type of transient growth is that represented by Curve III in Figure 1. Here, the quantity grows exponentially for a while. Then the growth rate diminishes until the quantity reaches one or more maxima, and then undergoes a negative-exponential decline back to zero. This is the type of growth curve that must be followed in the exploitation of any exhaustible resource such as coal or oil, or deposits of metallic ores.

Transition From Steady State To Transient State Due To Fossil Fuels


By about 2 million years ago biological evolution had advanced to where the ancestors of the present human species had begun to walk upright and to use crude stone tools. At that stage this species must have existed as a member of an ecological complex and competed with the other members of the complex for a share of the local solar energy essential for its existence. The energy utilizable was almost exclusively the food supply derived by the biological system from solar energy by the mechanism of photosynthesis. During the subsequent million or more years the human species progressively devised means of capturing an ever larger supply of the available energy. This resulted in a slow change in the ecological relations and to an increase in density and geographical spread of the human population, but the energy per capita changed very little.

Although the pace quickened about 8,000 to 10,000 years ago with the domestication of plants and animals, a rapidly changing transient state of evolution was not possible until the large supplies of energy stored in the fossil fuels began to be utilized -when the mining of coal as a continuous enterprise was begun near Newcastle in northeast England about 9 centuries ago. This was followed as recently as 1857 in Romania and in 1859 in the United States by the exploitation of the second major source of fossil-fuel energy, petroleum.

[...]

What is most strikingly shown by these complete-cycle curves is the brevity of the period during which petroleum can serve as a major source of energy. The peak in the production rate for the United States has already occurred three years ago in 1970. The peak in the production rate for the world based upon the high estimate of 2100 billion barrels, will occur about the year 2000. For the United States, the time required to produce the middle 80 percent of the 170 billion barrels will be approximately the 67-year period from about 1932-1999. For the world, the period required to produce the middle 80 percent of the estimated 2100 billion barrels will be about 64 years from 1968 to 2032. Hence, a child born in the mid-1930s if he lives a normal life expectancy, will see the United States consume most of its oil during his lifetime. Similarly, a child born within the last 5 years will see the world consume most of its oil during his lifetime.

A better appreciation of the epoch of the fossil fuels in human history can be obtained if the complete production cycle for all the fossil fuels combined -- coal, oil, natural gas, tar sands, and oil shales--is plotted on a time span of human history extending from 5000 years in the past to 5000 years in the future, a period well within the prospective span of human history. Such a plotting is shown in Figure 13. This Washington Monument-like spike, with a middle 80-percent span of about three centuries, represents the entire epoch. On such a time scale, it is seen that the epoch of the fossil fuel can be but an ephemeral and transitory event-an event, nonetheless, that has exercised the most drastic influence so far experienced by the human species during Its entire biological existence.

Other Sources of Energy

It is not the object of the present discussion to review the world's energy resources. Therefore, let us state summarily that of the other sources of energy of a magnitude suitable for large-scale industrial uses, water power, tidal power, and geothermal power are very useful in special cases but do not have a sufficient magnitude to supplant the fossil fuels. Nuclear power based on fission is potentially larger than the fossil fuels, but it also represents the most hazardous industrial operation in terms of potential catastrophic effects that has ever been undertaken in human history.

For a source of energy of even larger magnitude and without the hazardous characteristics of nuclear power, we are left with solar radiation. In magnitude, the solar radiation reaching the earth's surface amounts to about 120,000 × 1012 watts, which is equivalent, thermally, to the energy inputs to 40 million 1000-megawatt power plants. Suffice it to say that only now has serious technological attention begun to be directed to this potential source of industrial power. However, utilizing principally technology already in existence there is promise that eventually solar energy alone could easily supply all of the power requirements for the world's human population.

Constraints on Growth

Returning now to the problem of sustained growth, it would appear that with an adequate development of solar power it should be possible to continue the rates of growth of the last century for a considerable time into the future. However, with regard to this optimistic view attention needs to be directed to other constraints than the magnitude of the energy supply. These constraints may be broadly classified as being ecological in nature. For more than a century it has been known in biology that if any biological species from microbes to elephants is given a favorable environment, its population will begin to increase at an exponential rate. However, it was also soon established that such a growth rate cannot long continue before retarding influences set in. These are commonly of the nature of crowding, pollution, food supply, and in an open system by adjustments with respect to other members of the ecological complex.

In our earlier review of the rates of production of the fossil fuels it was observed that for close to a century in each case the production increased exponentially with doubling periods within the range of 8 to 16 years. The same type of growth rates are characteristic of most other industrial components. Figure 14 is a graph showing the exponential growth of the world electric generating capacity. The solid part of the curve since 1955 shows a growth rate of 8.0 percent per year with a doubling period of 8.7 years. The dashed part of the curve shows approximately the growth since 1900. In the United States during the last several decades electric power capacity has been doubling about every 10 years. The world population of automobiles and also passenger miles of scheduled air flights are each also doubling about every 10 years.

In Figure 15 a graph is shown of the growth of the world's human population from the year 1000 A.D. to the present, and an approximate projection to the year 2000. This is important in that it shows the ecological disturbance of the human population produced by the development of technology based upon the fossil fuels, the concomitant developments in biological and medical science, and expansion into the sparsely settled areas of the newly discovered geographical territories. Note the very slow rate of growth in the human population during the 500 year period from the year 1000 A.D. to 1500, and then the accelerated growth that has occurred subsequently. Were it possible to plot this curve backward in time for a million years, the curve would be barely above zero for that entire period. The flare up that has occurred since the year 15M is a unique event in human biological history.

It is also informative to contrast the present growth rate of the human population with the average that must have prevailed during the past. The present world population is about 3.9 billion which is increasing at a rate of about 2 percent per year, with a doubling period of about 35 years. What could have been the minimum average doubling period during the last million years? This minimum would occur if we make a wholly unrealistic assumption, namely that the population a million years ago was the biological minimum of 2. How many doublings of this original couple would be required to reach the world's present population of 3.9 billion? Slightly less than 31. Hence, the maximum number of times the population could have doubled during the last million years would have been 31. The minimum value of the average period of doubling must accordingly have been 1,000,000/31, or 32,000 years.

To be sure the population need not have grown smoothly. Fluctuations no doubt must have occurred due to plagues, climatic changes, and wars, but there is no gainsaying the conclusion that the rate of growth until recently must have been so extremely slow that we may regard the human population during most of its history as approximating an ecological steady state.

The same kind of reasoning may be applied to the other components of any ecological system. It is known from geological evidence that organic species commonly persist for millions of years. Consequently, when we compute a maximum average growth rate between two finite levels of population at a time interval of a million years, we arrive at the same conclusion, namely that the normal state ­ that is the state that persists most of the time ­ is one of an approximate steady state. The abnormal state of an ecological system is a rapidly changing transient or disturbed state. Figure 16 illustrates the behavior of the populations of three separate species of an ecological complex during a transient disturbance between two steady states. In such a disturbance all populations are effected, some favorably, some unfavorably.

[...]

Cultural Aspects of the Growth Problem

Without further elaboration, It is demonstrable that the exponential phase of the industrial growth which has dominated human activities during the last couple of centuries is drawing to a close. Some biological and industrial components must follow paths such as Curve II in Figure 1 and level off to a steady state; others must follow Curve III and decline ultimately to zero. But it is physically and biologically impossible for any material or energy component to follow the exponential growth phase of Curve I for more than a few tens of doublings, and most of those possible doublings have occurred already.

Yet, during the last two centuries of unbroken industrial growth we have evolved what amounts to an exponential-growth culture. Our institutions, our legal system, our financial system, and our most cherished folkways and beliefs are all based upon the premise of continuing growth. Since physical and biological constraints make it impossible to continue such rates of growth indefinitely, it is inevitable that with the slowing down in the rates of physical growth cultural adjustments must be made.

One example of such a cultural difficulty is afforded by the fundamental difference between the properties of money and those of matter and energy upon which the operation of the physical world depends. Money, being a system of accounting, is, in effect, paper and so is not constrained by the laws within which material and energy systems must operate. In fact money grows exponentially by the rule of compound interest.

[...]

In particular, if the industrial growth rate a and the average interest rate i have the same values, then the ratio of money to what money will buy will remain constant and a stable price level should prevail. Suppose, however, that for physical reasons the industrial growth rate a declines but the interest rate i holds steady. We should then have a situation where i is greater than a with the corresponding price inflation at the rate (i-a). Finally, consider a physical growth rate a=0, with the interest rate i greater than zero. In this case, the rate of price inflation should be the same as the average interest rate. Conversely, if prices are to remain stable at reduced rates of industrial growth this would require that the average interest rate should be reduced by the same amount. Finally, the maintenance of a constant price level in a nongrowing industrial system implies either an interest rate of zero or continuous inflation.

Time Perspective of Industrial and Cultural Evolution

The foregoing example has been discussed in detail because it serves as a case history of the type of cultural difficulties which may be anticipated during the transition period from a phase of exponential growth to a stable state. Since the tenets of our exponential-growth culture (such as a nonzero interest rate) are incompatible with a state of nongrowth, it is understandable that extraordinary efforts will be made to avoid a cessation of growth. Inexorable, however, physical and biological constraints must eventually prevail and appropriate cultural adjustments will have to be made.

***

http://www.oilcrisis.com/hubbert/growth/
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Re: Overshoot

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For reference, here is our peak oil discussion:

http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ot ... /peak-oil/
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Re: Overshoot

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I picked up the eBook and am eagerly reading it--with a genuinely open mind. One thing I am struck by is how dated the writing is. The book was written more than 40 years ago and I admit I am skeptical of old apocalyptic non-fiction--by definition, the predicted apocalypse hasn't happened yet! This doesn't mean it won't, or couldn't, of course. Fossil fuels are undeniably a resource that is non-renewable on a human time scale (with our current level of technology  ;)). We might have used 50% of the fossil fuels that will ever be economically feasible to extract or we might have used 2%, but we're certainly using it up.

Nevertheless, I retain my faith in market pricing. Supply and demand can only be denied by governments for so long--once the price starts to rise because the supplies of economically extractable fossil fuels are dwindling, the shift to electricically-powered equipment and non-fossil-fuel electricity generation will really heat up. And it's already happening. Several European countries get more than half of their total energy from non-fossil-fuel sources. The infrastructure conversion from fossil-fuel-fired to electricity-powered has been taking place for decades. The world looks like a substantially different place from the one that Catton saw in 1973. Back then everything was coal, oil, gas, smoke, smog, pollution, low efficiency. In 2016, four of the houses in my middle-class neighborhood have large solar PV arrays on their roofs, and I could buy an electric car for $16k if I wanted to. The world itself seems to be a constant low-level refutation of Catton's worries. But I'll read the whole book and let you know if anything he said changes my mind.
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Re: Overshoot

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Nothing has caused me more cognitive dissonance than overshoot / peak oil.  It's weird, but I find myself flip flopping between not caring about overshoot and peak oil, to caring too much.  It's like when I read about it, it makes so much sense that I cannot logically refute it.  The big picture takeaway is extremely depressing and makes me wonder about the timing and if I should even bother worrying about it.  Part of me thinks that there's not really much you can honestly do anyway, so it's best not to worry... the other part of me thinks that it's stupid to just do nothing.

After a few months of not reading anything about it, it's like it goes to the back of my mind and I no longer fear it or think it relevant anymore.  I sometimes think this is my brain in denial employing a natural defense mechanism.  Does anyone else have this happen? Just me?

The problem is, I have yet to hear a convincing argument against overshoot/peak oil that didn't involve high levels of cargoism... I'm waiting though.  I actually spent a good amount of time trying to find analyses that could persuasively refute overshoot/peak oil, sadly, I found none that were very convincing.

I hear that a lot of people are attracted to this sort of narrative because it's thrilling doomer porn, but I honestly can't fathom why anyone would WANT to believe in overshoot or peak oil, it's pretty depressing.  I'd much rather NOT have heard about it at all to be honest.  It's like when Morpheus offers the blue pill vs. the red pill.  Just take the damn blue pill..  ;D
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Re: Overshoot

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It definitely spurs pessimism about the big picture.

New sources of cleaner energy are great, but I think we also will have to adjust some of our consumption downwards (in this country).  I saw an analysis that to sustain a world population at about a European standard of living (which is less consumptive than ours), we'd need about 2 billion people, and we currently have about 8 million.

In the past, diseases, pandemics and wars, combined with people dying at a younger age served to keep population a bit more balanced.  But we've eradicated a lot of diseases and controlled outbreaks so they don't become pandemics, our technology is letting us wage wars without as many soldiers dying, and medicine is keeping us alive longer.

All of those are good things from smaller perspectives, but possibly bad from a larger perspective.

On a local level, our electric company has just made it possible to get all of our electricity from wind generation for a very small extra fee - 25 cents per 100 kilowatt hours.  I definitely want to sign up for that soon.
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Re: Overshoot

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sixdollars wrote: Nothing has caused me more cognitive dissonance than overshoot / peak oil.  It's weird, but I find myself flip flopping between not caring about overshoot and peak oil, to caring too much.  It's like when I read about it, it makes so much sense that I cannot logically refute it.  The big picture takeaway is extremely depressing and makes me wonder about the timing and if I should even bother worrying about it.  Part of me thinks that there's not really much you can honestly do anyway, so it's best not to worry... the other part of me thinks that it's stupid to just do nothing.

After a few months of not reading anything about it, it's like it goes to the back of my mind and I no longer fear it or think it relevant anymore.  I sometimes think this is my brain in denial employing a natural defense mechanism.  Does anyone else have this happen? Just me?

The problem is, I have yet to hear a convincing argument against overshoot/peak oil that didn't involve high levels of cargoism... I'm waiting though.  I actually spent a good amount of time trying to find analyses that could persuasively refute overshoot/peak oil, sadly, I found none that were very convincing.

I hear that a lot of people are attracted to this sort of narrative because it's thrilling doomer porn, but I honestly can't fathom why anyone would WANT to believe in overshoot or peak oil, it's pretty depressing.  I'd much rather NOT have heard about it at all to be honest.  It's like when Morpheus offers the blue pill vs. the red pill.  Just take the damn blue pill..  ;D
My belief is that human intelligence evolved to be finely attuned to environmental, cultural, economic, etc. changes that occur within one human lifetime.  The reason for this evolutionary adaptation is that there is ZERO survival advantage to being able to detect and address problems that don't occur within a single lifetime (how could there be a survival advantage to a certain type of brain if it didn't actually help the individual himself survive?).

So my starting point is that human intelligence can be staggering in its grasp of concepts, nuance, subtlety, etc., but it has blind spots, and one of those blind spots is long term processes that are not easily observable, but which nevertheless affect a species' survival.  A popular one now is, of course, climate change, and what you see with people in many cases is a complete inability to grasp why it matters to them, and all sorts of culturally filtered rationalizations for why it isn't a big deal. 

Throughout the history of every species, there are always environmental limitations that normally prevent them from doing too much damage to their habitat and other species, and the long term survival of a species is normally a function of the ongoing suitability of their environment. 

With humans, though, it's a little different.  We have systematically overwhelmed every natural barrier that would have otherwise kept us in any kind of steady state with our environment.

- We have moved to the top of the food chain and then mostly transcended it (though we are still working on wiping out the dangerous germs).

- We have hunted all potential predators to the brink of extinction, and we keep the remaining cute ones in zoos.

- We have conquered hunger to the point that starvation is more of a political tactic than a serious environmental threat for most humans alive today.

In other words, we have conquered our environment in a comprehensive way, and the effort is ongoing.  We think of this as a triumph and a tribute to our massive intelligence.

But what if that whole framework is misplaced?  What if we are not actually a meaningful culmination of organic life at all?  What if every step we took out of our natural habitat and stasis with nature took us one step closer to extinction, even though we thought it was doing just the opposite?

If we as a species were basically destroying ourselves through the destruction of our environment, would we know?  I would suggest that for a person with no cultural lenses it would be obvious that if you kill all the animal life, stress the soil, pollute the waterways, grow your population exponentially, etc. it would be obvious that your species was experiencing its last gasps, but there are no people without cultural lenses.  We all see things through the values and beliefs that make up our cultural operating system. 

The real problem IMHO is that we have a cultural operating system that doesn't allow us to see the error in the way we are interacting with our habitat.  Since our cultural lenses are what allow us to make sense of the world, it's very hard to take them off for any reason, even if it's a good reason.  What this leads to is sound arguments like peak oil and overshoot running into a messy web of cultural beliefs about the "specialness" of the human species, and how our species are not subject to the same processes that govern all other life.  That's where cargoism comes into the picture and acts almost like a religion in many people's minds.

If a person is able to allow the truth of these dark messages to get past their cultural filters, it often just creates a sense of despair because when the problem is viewed clearly it becomes obvious that there is no solution other than the human species suffering the same fate that every other dominant species in history has suffered when environmental changes cause their habitat to no longer be conducive to their own survival. 

Seeing too far into the future can be a depressing experience.  When no one is really interested in knowing what the future holds, it can also be an isolating experience.

I've always thought that the next ice age would clear away the delusions associated with modern humanity and its fascination with industrial capitalism, and that's going to happen whether we cut back on burning fossil fuels and reproducing or not.  It's just a question of whether it happens 400 years from now or 40,000 years from now.  These time periods are blips in geological time, though, so it really doesn't matter whether we wreck ourselves or get wrecked by a bunch of ice, the end result is the same: the human species will likely become extinct in the future, and our total time inhabiting this earth will be the equivalent of staying a couple of nights in a 100 year old hotel and imagining that it belongs to you because you have a key to your room and the workout center.  It's just hubris.

Will we travel to other planets and live there?  Doubtful.  The fact that simply getting to our own moon took a monumental effort in a society with enormous surpluses and we only did it a few times makes me think that humans are probably safer on earth than they would be anywhere else.  We evolved to live here, with this air, with this solar radiation, with this gravity.  We are earthlings.  To go live on a new planet (assuming you could find one) you would need not just enormous lead times, technology that doesn't exist, and gigantic surpluses to commit to such a project, but you would also need a level of cohesion and cooperation across the whole human species that has never occurred at any time in our history.  And it still might not work.

I think what is better to do is to focus on the present, this moment, and do what you can in that space.  Like our own personal deaths, the death of our species is also just part of life.  We shouldn't dread the realization of the mortality of our own species; rather, we should celebrate the fact that we ever existed at all (as we should do with ourselves individually).

The hole you don't want to fall into is what you might call "species nihilism", or perhaps "cultural nihilism", where you begin to feel a sense of futility over everything, not just your own life.  That's a heavy burden to carry, and you have to ask yourself some serious questions: Why does it matter what I think about any of this stuff?  What value is there in ruining my own peace of mind over something that I'm not even supposed to know about?  After all, I'm only supposed to know about bad things that can happen in a single lifetime.  That's what I evolved to deal with.  That's what I am optimized for.

When thinking about how to metabolize all of these ideas, I like how Anton Chigurh put it: Let me ask you something. If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?  I think that's good advice for each individual, as well as a subtle criticism of the entire life support system that we have created for ourselves.
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Re: Overshoot

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sixdollars wrote: Nothing has caused me more cognitive dissonance than overshoot / peak oil.  It's weird, but I find myself flip flopping between not caring about overshoot and peak oil, to caring too much.  It's like when I read about it, it makes so much sense that I cannot logically refute it.  The big picture takeaway is extremely depressing and makes me wonder about the timing and if I should even bother worrying about it.  Part of me thinks that there's not really much you can honestly do anyway, so it's best not to worry... the other part of me thinks that it's stupid to just do nothing.

After a few months of not reading anything about it, it's like it goes to the back of my mind and I no longer fear it or think it relevant anymore.  I sometimes think this is my brain in denial employing a natural defense mechanism.  Does anyone else have this happen? Just me?
You are not alone.  Sometimes, the thought that we are ruining the planet really bothers me.  Those are usually the days where I walk to the store and don't drive at all.  Other times, I just shrug, and drive around in my SUV.  At the end of the day though, it's like worrying about the sun swelling up and swallowing the Earth;  it is definitely going to happen, but WTF can you do?  I purposely didn't have any kids, so I feel like I did my part to reduce the damage.  Hey man, you're living in the greatest country in the history of mankind at the peak of civilization, it's all good! -passes the bong to you-
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Re: Overshoot

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Austen Heller wrote:
sixdollars wrote: Nothing has caused me more cognitive dissonance than overshoot / peak oil.  It's weird, but I find myself flip flopping between not caring about overshoot and peak oil, to caring too much.  It's like when I read about it, it makes so much sense that I cannot logically refute it.  The big picture takeaway is extremely depressing and makes me wonder about the timing and if I should even bother worrying about it.  Part of me thinks that there's not really much you can honestly do anyway, so it's best not to worry... the other part of me thinks that it's stupid to just do nothing.

After a few months of not reading anything about it, it's like it goes to the back of my mind and I no longer fear it or think it relevant anymore.  I sometimes think this is my brain in denial employing a natural defense mechanism.  Does anyone else have this happen? Just me?
You are not alone.  Sometimes, the thought that we are ruining the planet really bothers me.  Those are usually the days where I walk to the store and don't drive at all.  Other times, I just shrug, and drive around in my SUV.  At the end of the day though, it's like worrying about the sun swelling up and swallowing the Earth;  it is definitely going to happen, but WTF can you do?  I purposely didn't have any kids, so I feel like I did my part to reduce the damage.  Hey man, you're living in the greatest country in the history of mankind at the peak of civilization, it's all good! -passes the bong to you-
-accepts the bong, loads, operates, exhales, looks off into the distance-

Yeah.  It's pretty cool here.  It's not perfect, but it's pretty good.  I've got some new headphones that sound amazing.
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Re: Overshoot

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When asked what he would do if he knew he were to die tomorrow, Martin Luther responded  "plant a tree".

In "7 Habits of Highly Effective People" Covey has a similar thought.  Stay in your circle of influence, not your circle of concern.

Peak oil, climate change, are all self correcting problems anyway, if indeed they really are problems.

And, for many of us life does not end at physical death.

What to do in the interim?  Love your neighbor.  Use your talents to help them.  Focus on your family and friends.  Be joyful for the gifts you have been given.

It's all good.  ;D

... M 
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Re: Overshoot

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Well, one can also try to live in a way that reduces one's own environmental footprint, and support efforts of those to reduce the destruction of the environment.

We use about half of the average amounts of water and utilities, and live quite comfortably and "normally" in a smallish single story house.

There are groups like TerraPass that you can support which reduce greenhouse gases.

Solar panels and wind generation of electricity are good.  Our local electric utility makes it very easy to buy wind power now.

Composting, recycling and buying more local produce are also good ideas.  There's a CSA where we live that we like a lot, in which local farmers supply produce every week.

It's true that the very big picture is out of our hands, and that nature will eventually "self-correct", and that getting depressed or upset about that doesn't help anything/anybody, but that doesn't mean we can't try to act more sustainably in our own lives.
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Re: Overshoot

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MediumTex wrote: My belief is that human intelligence evolved to be finely attuned to environmental, cultural, economic, etc. changes that occur within one human lifetime.  The reason for this evolutionary adaptation is that there is ZERO survival advantage to being able to detect and address problems that don't occur within a single lifetime (how could there be a survival advantage to a certain type of brain if it didn't actually help the individual himself survive?).

....

I think what is better to do is to focus on the present, this moment, and do what you can in that space.  Like our own personal deaths, the death of our species is also just part of life.  We shouldn't dread the realization of the mortality of our own species; rather, we should celebrate the fact that we ever existed at all (as we should do with ourselves individually).

The hole you don't want to fall into is what you might call "species nihilism", or perhaps "cultural nihilism", where you begin to feel a sense of futility over everything, not just your own life.  That's a heavy burden to carry, and you have to ask yourself some serious questions: Why does it matter what I think about any of this stuff?  What value is there in ruining my own peace of mind over something that I'm not even supposed to know about?  After all, I'm only supposed to know about bad things that can happen in a single lifetime.  That's what I evolved to deal with.  That's what I am optimized for.

When thinking about how to metabolize all of these ideas, I like how Anton Chigurh put it: Let me ask you something. If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?  I think that's good advice for each individual, as well as a subtle criticism of the entire life support system that we have created for ourselves.
Damn MT, that was a pretty awesome post.  Thank you.

You quoted Hubbert earlier.  I think he estimated that 80% of the oil would be consumed by 2032.  You mentioned earlier that you think that shale oil may have shifted the oil profile by about 10 years.  Do you think that is equivalent to moving that 2032 date back to 2042?  Even though this is just an estimate, this would still put the peak of oil production within many of our lifetimes and it would likely occur well before that year.  If we have to live in a world that requires growth but have to deal with decreasing supplies of oil, wouldn't that become extremely problematic?  My biggest concern is that oil is so crucial to current methods of mass food production - I have a hard time seeing how that could end well.

I understand your logic if it's a far out event that isn't likely to affect us directly.  I'm not worried because of species nihilism so much as I am sometimes worried that life might get pretty rough in our own lifetimes (for reference, I'm 24 - If i were 50+ maybe I would care less).  Life seems like it would be a lot easier on the uphill side of the oil production curve.  The downhill portion doesn't look like a fun party at all.

I agree with you though...  Dwelling over it doesn't do much good and it would be far more enjoyable to just focus on the present.  I actually hadn't thought about this topic in a while until I saw some of these old threads resurface  :P
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Re: Overshoot

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Has anyone read the book The Rational Optimist?

http://www.amazon.com/Rational-Optimist ... l+optimist
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Re: Overshoot

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From an individualist standpoint, MT is right... the degradation of our culture or species or morals or superiority or economy shouldn't cause us chronic stress.

However, if we ARE going to have debates around what the government should do and why it should do it, it certainly serves us to do so in the proper context, if nothing else than for the purpose of debate.

And in the context of government being at its best when it's protecting us from threats that the private-sector can't do efficiently, or engaging in basic services that the private sector may not be so good at, realizing that we are essentially sewing our own destruction is of even more importance, but in-terms of deciding what the government DOES do (engaging in environmental protections), as well as what it SHOULDN'T do (allocate massive amounts of resources to "terrorism," putting tons of police on the streets to stop victimless crimes, etc, etc).

I may not lose sleep over global warming, but debates about what government should or shouldn't do is never going to fit perfectly within our HB-esque stoicism and will always focus on stuff we can't control.  We can either choose to permanently abandon political debates, or we can choose to engage in civil discourse under the presumption that between the mental stimulation it offers and the "duty" we kinda sorta feel we have to at least have an opinion on stuff and put some pressure on those we elect, that we are going to focus on certain issues and debate them.

What I often see folks do (including me, to a degree) is debate with fervor something they deem to be of importance for some reason at the governmental level.  Something outside their control.  Something they REALLLLY want to change, but can't.  Then, when someone makes a valid argument about something on the opposite end of their political radar (and often forces some cognitive dissonance due to it implying they should support a candidate that is an enemy to your "pet cause") they switch to an individualist mind-set. 

"Don't worry about global warming... we're all gonna decline someday." 

"If you don't think high taxes are morally valid, why don't you move somewhere else."

"If you're worried about affordable healthcare, go out there and find a job to get it."

These individualist suggestions are actually not bad suggestions.  But they're a bit of a bait and switch, sometimes.  As soon as we get into a realm of debating political topics, we're now in the potentially unhealthy realm of debating things we have no influence over.  All of us are.  Not just the guy suggesting we do something about global warming, but the guy who wants to see a "business-friendly" president get elected, or who wants to see nuclear energy & bullet trains become commonplace, or who wants a single-payer healthcare system.

If we're in this realm, and as soon as someone makes an argument that trumps yours, you say "well move out of Manhattan if you think the oceans are rising," you've engaged in what I think is sort of an unfair discussion tactic... even though it's one I know I've used on multiple occasions.  Sometimes fairly, given how my "opponent" is debating about the nature of our options as individuals, and sometimes unfairly, where you're subconsciously probably just trying to "apply to personal responsibility" while just making a veiled Ad Hominem.

Great post, though, MT... not trying to take away from that.  Your analysis is pretty spot on.
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Re: Overshoot

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Okay, I've read the whole book. It was fun, albeit extremely repetitive. The chapter on ecology and life systems in particular was really neat, and the idea that societies also experience succession just like ecosystems is a thought-provoking one. But I got a very "Austrian Economics" vibe from the whole book. It's so neat and tidy, with every historical event being explainable using the author's perspective, using such moralistic critiques of any who disagree. It's telling you The One True Theory That Explains Everything If Only Everybody Would See It That way.

Time and again I found myself reading a bold claim, casually thrown out there, that sounded right until I really started to think about it. Like the supposed relationship between violence and the crowding of the planet… except that global rates of violence--both crime and war--have been continuously falling since records have been kept.

Or the assertion that within the lifetimes of people living in 1973, the world would run out of easily accessible oil, as evidenced by rising EROEI, and yet here we are 43 years later with oil under $30 a barrel, so cheap and plentiful that the president has called for a tax to make it more expensive!

Or the casual dismissal of renewable energy generation methods as "Cargoist." Well, news flash to Catton: the transition is in the middle of happening right now! Solar PV and wind have achieved grid parity and then some: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_parity
It is now cheaper to add solar PV and especially wind generation capacity in many parts of the USA than it is to construct a coal-fired power plant. In fact, 68% of the new electric capacity added last year was solar PV or wind: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... -u-s-power

As much pessimism as Catton expresses for the capacity to technologically innovate our way out of the problem, in the 40 years since he wrote the book, we've been doing just that, and the trajectory is definitely positive.  I think Catton would have been totally floored by the notion of solar PV and wind economically outcompeting coal. In fact his glib dismissal of the possibility of solar PV is entirely content-free:
Almost never is consideration given to the possibility that taking over some additional fraction of the solar flux that now drives the world's climate might produce ecosystem changes detrimental to human interests. All that "unused" sunlight is assumed to be "available."
What exactly is the criticism? I can't find one. Just a nebulous fear of change. But it hardly matters since we're doing it anyway, with no ecological consequences so far, and it turns out we don't need to be bludgeoned over the head with ecological guilt-tripping that people won't respond well to anyway. All you really need do is unleash the power of capitalism on the problem and then people's short-term interests become aligned with what would be best for the long-term--which is exactly what we're seeing today.

A few pages later, his true argument surfaces:
It was enough of a misstep to have committed ourselves to drawing down non-living resources; it would be a double folly if we were to become any more committed to consuming renewable resources faster than their rate of renewal.
How exactly do you consume solar energy faster than the sun produces it? It seems like Catton hasn't actually given this technology any thought at all, because this argument is nonsensical. You could say this about biomass energy from burning wood, but not solar PV. When the sun doesn't shine, it doesn't make any electricity--full stop. The concept simply doesn't make any sense; there is no way to unsustainably consume solar irradiance.

I could go on with more individual critiques since there are ton of these kinds of things throughout the book, but I think I've made my point. Catton wants to look at everything through an ecological lens and it very much seems like he ignores the technological and economic ones. And it's a shame, because these lenses show options that can very much be both good for the planet and good for the bottom line. Oregon, Washington, and Maine get more than 66% of their electricity from hydroelectric tidal generation that produces zero carbon-based pollution and consumes no fossil fuels. The grid is being solarized and wind-ified the world over. Catton's doom and gloom just doesn't seem realistic in the face of all the changes that have happened since he wrote the book. To put it in Cattonian, ecological terms, my general argument is that humanity appears to be now in the midst of raising the Earth's carrying capacity to match the overshoot. In time, it won't be an overshoot anymore. I guess I'm a "Cargoist," but it seems like the world empirically supports it pretty well.
Last edited by Pointedstick on Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jafs
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Re: Overshoot

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I agree that technology and increased efficiencies can help - and the strange quote about consuming renewable sources of energy too fast seems very odd, as you point out.

But I'm not sure we can "Star Trek" our way out of the problem completely, and it would be good to remember that we're part of nature and depend on it, rather than being separate from it.

The best approach seems to me would be a combination of more mindful consumption and use of better, cleaner renewable energy sources, along with some family planning.

If you look at population charts, the angle of population growth in the last century and a half is extremely striking, and very out of balance with the historical numbers.
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Re: Overshoot

Post by Libertarian666 »

Pointedstick wrote: But I got a very "Austrian Economics" vibe from the whole book. It's so neat and tidy, with every historical event being explainable using the author's perspective, using such moralistic critiques of any who disagree. It's telling you The One True Theory That Explains Everything If Only Everybody Would See It That way.
...

All you really need do is unleash the power of capitalism on the problem and then people's short-term interests become aligned with what would be best for the long-term--which is exactly what we're seeing today.
"to unleash the power of capitalism" is about as concise a summary of Austrian economics as I could imagine. So I'm having trouble seeing how these two statements aren't contradictory.
Last edited by Libertarian666 on Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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