Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by vnatale » Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:44 am

Maddy wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:55 am

What's most obvious to me:

(1) That there is a group of people who want to believe that there is a Garden of Eden in which every want can be fulfilled without any corresponding cost. These generally are NOT the people who live simple, low-impact lives. They want all of the perks of modern living, including $70,000 EVs, and the ability to "self actualize" free of the constraints of work, and are continually in search of a technology that will allow them to claim that their quest for the next and better gadget is somehow bettering the world.

(2) That these people generally have an overinflated view of their intellectual abilities and, as a result, do not think it at all officious for them to prescribe how other people should live.

(3) That these people have a curious inability to comprehend, and incorporate in their views, the concept of a pluralistic society. They tend to view those who do not agree with them as ignorant and/or unwilling to see the truth. This is the "identity trap" described by Harry Browne. Other people are seen either as clones of oneself or as people who SHOULD be clones of oneself.


Enlightening. I've read several Harry Browne books and do not remember reading this. Maybe I read it but did not retain the concept. Was this in one of his books? If so, which one? Or is this something he said or wrote elsewhere?
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by Tyler » Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:37 am

vnatale wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:44 am
Enlightening. I've read several Harry Browne books and do not remember reading this. Maybe I read it but did not retain the concept. Was this in one of his books? If so, which one? Or is this something he said or wrote elsewhere?
That's from "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World". Highly recommended.
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by joypog » Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:40 am

Maddy wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:55 am
What's most obvious to me:

(1) That there is a group of people who want to believe that there is a Garden of Eden in which every want can be fulfilled without any corresponding cost. These generally are NOT the people who live simple, low-impact lives. They want all of the perks of modern living, including $70,000 EVs, and the ability to "self actualize" free of the constraints of work, and are continually in search of a technology that will allow them to claim that their quest for the next and better gadget is somehow bettering the world.

(2) That these people generally have an overinflated view of their intellectual abilities and, as a result, do not think it at all officious for them to prescribe how other people should live.

(3) That these people have a curious inability to comprehend, and incorporate in their views, the concept of a pluralistic society. They tend to view those who do not agree with them as ignorant and/or unwilling to see the truth. This is the "identity trap" described by Harry Browne. Other people are seen either as clones of oneself or as people who SHOULD be clones of oneself.
It seems that you disagree with the folks described in #1+#2. So how do you view these folks that you disagree with? How does your concept of a pluralistic society address the existence of these folks?
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by Maddy » Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:22 pm

joypog wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:40 am

It seems that you disagree with the folks described in #1+#2. So how do you view these folks that you disagree with? How does your concept of a pluralistic society address the existence of these folks?
I'm not sure what you mean by this question. I view them with disdain, as people who take up more than their share of oxygen in any room and who haven't mastered the basic art of having a good life without forcing others to live as they, alone, see fit. If you are asking me how, in a pluralistic world, the needs of these folks can be accommodated, my answer is that they do a pretty good job of putting themselves and their agenda at the forefront without anyone else's help.
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by joypog » Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:26 pm

Maddy wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:22 pm
joypog wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:40 am
It seems that you disagree with the folks described in #1+#2. So how do you view these folks that you disagree with? How does your concept of a pluralistic society address the existence of these folks?
I'm not sure what you mean by this question. I view them with disdain, as people who take up more than their share of oxygen in any room and who haven't mastered the basic art of having a good life without forcing others to live as they, alone, see fit. If you are asking me how, in a pluralistic world, the needs of these folks can be accommodated, my answer is that they do a pretty good job of putting themselves and their agenda at the forefront without anyone else's help.
Your assessment of those people seems very similar to this statement:
They tend to view those who do not agree with them as ignorant and/or unwilling to see the truth.
.
As such how do you avoid this "identity trap" yourself?
This is the "identity trap" described by Harry Browne. Other people are seen either as clones of oneself or as people who SHOULD be clones of oneself.
(I've been reading the work of Raymond Smullyan, so the self-referential logic of this conundrum caught my attention.)
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by Maddy » Fri Sep 09, 2022 3:22 pm

joypog wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:26 pm

Your assessment of those people seems very similar to this statement:
They tend to view those who do not agree with them as ignorant and/or unwilling to see the truth.
.
As such how do you avoid this "identity trap" yourself?
This is the "identity trap" described by Harry Browne. Other people are seen either as clones of oneself or as people who SHOULD be clones of oneself.
Not at all. I don't expect or require other people to be like me. I understand and accept that people's values and ideals are all over the map. Which is why the authoritarian world view is repugnant to me.

BTW, you can argue a point, even vehemently--and you can call out a hypocrite when you see one--and STILL not be forcing your values and preferences on other people. Which is something those fragile, whiny types with identity issues apparently do not understand.
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by boglerdude » Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:56 pm

> the authoritarian world view is repugnant to me.

You libertarian types dont get it. When there is an EMERGENCY like a SURGE in PCR+ tests, you are going to need to do what you are told. Just voluntarily mask up and we wont have to force you to.
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by joypog » Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:20 am

Maddy wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 3:22 pm
joypog wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:26 pm

Your assessment of those people seems very similar to this statement:
They tend to view those who do not agree with them as ignorant and/or unwilling to see the truth.
.
As such how do you avoid this "identity trap" yourself?
This is the "identity trap" described by Harry Browne. Other people are seen either as clones of oneself or as people who SHOULD be clones of oneself.
Not at all. I don't expect or require other people to be like me. I understand and accept that people's values and ideals are all over the map. Which is why the authoritarian world view is repugnant to me.

BTW, you can argue a point, even vehemently--and you can call out a hypocrite when you see one--and STILL not be forcing your values and preferences on other people. Which is something those fragile, whiny types with identity issues apparently do not understand.
Your tone here seem perfectly reasonable in in responding to people you deem to be incorrect, especially if you believe they are exerting influence on society. Maybe a bit harsh but whatevers, politics is a contact sport.

However, your point #3 was a condemnation of how "these people" folks view others with divergent beliefs. However you hold a similar disdain of "these people" due to their beliefs. How are you avoiding hypocrisy in pursuing this particular line of attack? What beliefs would they need to modify in order to escape your ire? How could they change those beliefs without becoming a clone of you?
(3) That these people have a curious inability to comprehend, and incorporate in their views, the concept of a pluralistic society. They tend to view those who do not agree with them as ignorant and/or unwilling to see the truth. This is the "identity trap" described by Harry Browne. Other people are seen either as clones of oneself or as people who SHOULD be clones of oneself.
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by Maddy » Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:59 am

Again, I am not requiring anyone else to change their beliefs or to conform their behavior to suit me. I know this is a hard concept for those with a proclivity toward central planning who, upon discovering the truth du jour, automatically assume that the rest of the world should embrace it--if necessary, by force.

Having strongly held opinions on matters of public policy does not equate to forcing them upon anyone else--that is, unless the hearer is so pathetically fragile, or so tenuously bound to a dogma, that the mere mention of an alternative viewpoint causes emotional distress. I'm not sure why you are not capable of seeing that distinction, but I can't state it any more clearly.

When you see me posting that you should be compelled to heat your house with a wood stove, we can resume the discussion.
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by vnatale » Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:11 am

Tyler wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:37 am

vnatale wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:44 am

Enlightening. I've read several Harry Browne books and do not remember reading this. Maybe I read it but did not retain the concept. Was this in one of his books? If so, which one? Or is this something he said or wrote elsewhere?


That's from "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World". Highly recommended.


I did read that book. Therefore it was a case of me forgetting what I had read.

In that book, though, did he not advocate staying out of politics in all ways, even voting?

Somewhat ironic that he later went on to run for president!
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by joypog » Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:24 am

Maddy wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:59 am
Again, I am not requiring anyone else to change their beliefs or to conform their behavior to suit me. I know this is a hard concept for those with a proclivity toward central planning who, upon discovering the truth du jour, automatically assume that the rest of the world should embrace it--if necessary, by force.

Having strongly held opinions on matters of public policy does not equate to forcing them upon anyone else--that is, unless the hearer is so pathetically fragile, or so tenuously bound to a dogma, that the mere mention of an alternative viewpoint causes emotional distress. I'm not sure why you are not capable of seeing that distinction, but I can't state it any more clearly.
I'm trying to isolate a very simple question that is more or less separate from the political trappings one way or the other. It applies equally to the woke left as it would be to what you've written so far.

You claim "those people" hold others in disdain.
You believe this disdain is a bad trait, worthy of judgement.
You hold of "those people" in disdain.

What makes your disdain good while their disdain bad?
Last edited by joypog on Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by joypog » Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:25 am

Maddy wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:59 am
When you see me posting that you should be compelled to heat your house with a wood stove, we can resume the discussion.
On flip side, how would you respond to the argument that giving you the freedom to use a wood stove will result in pollution that they are forced to breathe?

The classic fist-nose problem.
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by Maddy » Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:14 am

joypog wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:24 am
You claim "those people" hold others in disdain.
You believe this disdain is a bad trait, worthy of judgement.
You hold of "those people" in disdain.

What makes your disdain good while their disdain bad?
You're not accurately portraying what I have said.

I don't care one way or another whether "those people" hold others, including myself, in disdain.
I don't regard disdain is a bad trait.
I do, indeed, hold "those people" in disdain.

What I detest is not their freedom to maintain values and ideals different than mine, but their insistence upon forcing them upon me.
Why is this so hard to understand?
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by Maddy » Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:46 am

joypog wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:25 am
On flip side, how would you respond to the argument that giving you the freedom to use a wood stove will result in pollution that they are forced to breathe?
"Giving me the freedom?"

I reject the whole notion that we have to come to a societal consensus on this point, or that everyone should be forced to live the same way. This is the life I choose, and at least for the moment, I have the freedom to choose it. I try to live my life in a way that is respectful of my neighbors, that doesn't waste resources, that doesn't take from somebody else, and that, to the greatest extent possible, gives everyone in the community the ability to pursue what makes them happy. Country life, whether it agrees with you or not, does provide an example of how that can--and does--work.
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by joypog » Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:41 pm

Maddy wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:14 am
joypog wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:24 am
You claim "those people" hold others in disdain.
You believe this disdain is a bad trait, worthy of judgement.
You hold of "those people" in disdain.

What makes your disdain good while their disdain bad?
You're not accurately portraying what I have said.

I don't care one way or another whether "those people" hold others, including myself, in disdain.
I don't regard disdain is a bad trait.
I do, indeed, hold "those people" in disdain.

What I detest is not their freedom to maintain values and ideals different than mine, but their insistence upon forcing them upon me.
Why is this so hard to understand?
OK that was what I was asking. It seemed that you were judging them for holding others in disdain. But you were merely describing the phenomena. You don't mind that they dislike people of your persuasion and you return the favor in kind.

As such, this is a neutral issue. Fair enough.
Last edited by joypog on Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by joypog » Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:46 pm

Maddy wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:46 am
joypog wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:25 am
On flip side, how would you respond to the argument that giving you the freedom to use a wood stove will result in pollution that they are forced to breathe?
"Giving me the freedom?"

I reject the whole notion that we have to come to a societal consensus on this point, or that everyone should be forced to live the same way. This is the life I choose, and at least for the moment, I have the freedom to choose it. I try to live my life in a way that is respectful of my neighbors, that doesn't waste resources, that doesn't take from somebody else, and that, to the greatest extent possible, gives everyone in the community the ability to pursue what makes them happy. Country life, whether it agrees with you or not, does provide an example of how that can--and does--work.
I never said that we have to consensus on this subject or live the same way. But society has the right to draw guardrails around human behavior.

In this example, what if your use of a wood stove pollutes the air unnecessarily, inefficiently expends resources, and degrades the local air quality?

Framed in this light, wouldn't your insistence on using a wood stove make you the tyrant?
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by Maddy » Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:30 pm

joypog wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:46 pm

I never said that we have to consensus on this subject or live the same way. But society has the right to draw guardrails around human behavior.

In this example, what if your use of a wood stove pollutes the air unnecessarily, inefficiently expends resources, and degrades the local air quality?

Framed in this light, wouldn't your insistence on using a wood stove make you the tyrant?
Traditionally, those "guard rails" were the very purpose of common law, which recognized the fundamental point that your rights go only so far before my rights begin. Precedent established the rules of the road, so to speak, and aimed for a principled compromise between competing interests--one that endeavored, above all, to preserve the freedom of individuals to live as they pleased. It wasn't perfect, but it worked most of the time--at the very least because it gave individuals fair notice of the boundaries so that they could predict the consequences of stepping over the line. When the system didn't work, it was generally because somebody had the ability to flout the law in ways that would not be possible for the ordinary guy of limited means.

In my lifetime, I saw the rule of law break down in ways that I never thought possible, largely due to a narcissistic ethic that cares nothing about principled outcomes and that champions whatever result best satisfies the wants of those in power (or who can be of use to those in power).

The wood stove example is not a very good one for purposes of discussion (at least in the context of a hermit in the woods who requires very little else to be happy) because the impact of that use is not even comparable to the combined impacts of the typical modern urban lifestyle featuring $70,000 electric vehicles, battery-powered lawn mowers, robotic vacuums, spying doorbells, and all the rest. But as a matter of general principle, doing something that is unreasonably bothersome to your neighbors doesn't make you a tyrant. An asshole, perhaps, but not a tyrant. But that's an entirely different subject.
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by joypog » Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:33 pm

Maddy wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:30 pm
The wood stove example is not a very good one for purposes of discussion (at least in the context of a hermit in the woods who requires very little else to be happy) because the impact of that use is not even comparable to the combined impacts of the typical modern urban lifestyle featuring $70,000 electric vehicles, battery-powered lawn mowers, robotic vacuums, spying doorbells, and all the rest.
Fair enough.

Two questions to push the conversation back towards the OP.

Did you bring up this techno-green-EV-yuppie because you believe these folks are also the ones who are championing energy reduction causes?

And you feel they have authoritarian tendencies due to this championing of energy production reduction?

And a third question on my part - so if we agree these techno-yuppies have a much higher environmental footprint than our mountain hermit, how do we make sure they pay these yuppies are properly shouldering their fair share for their environmental degradation? Or in your worldview is that an inappropriate question?
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by Maddy » Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:41 pm

joypog wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:33 pm

Did you bring up this techno-green-EV-yuppie because you believe these folks are also the ones who are championing energy reduction causes?

And you feel they have authoritarian tendencies due to this championing of energy production reduction?

And a third question on my part - so if we agree these techno-yuppies have a much higher environmental footprint than our mountain hermit, how do we make sure they pay these yuppies are properly shouldering their fair share for their environmental degradation? Or in your worldview is that an inappropriate question?
Honestly, I'm so divorced from the lifestyle of these people that I don't really know how they think. I do, however, see a fairly large proportion of the population getting sucked in by a curious wave of consumerism that is sold as "good" because the latest gizmo you absolutely have to have is oh-so-eco.

Whether these people are active champions of the effort to block the product of energy, I can't say, but their view that technology has spawned a new era in which human beings can consume to their heart's content without guilt, and while throttling traditional sources of energy, is nothing less than delusional.

When you refer to the "techno-green-EV-yuppie," I do tend to envision an authoritarian type, because the "sustainability" movement of today (unlike, for example, the "back to the land" movements of prior decades) is all about controlling other people: what they eat, what they build, what they drive, what they are permitted to say. It's no coincidence that the focus always involves projection. It's always about YOU! (In reality, I gather that the real power brokers, when it comes to the "sustainability" agenda, are guys in three-piece suits who jetset around with other elites on gas-guzzling private jets because, you know, they're special. What makes the idea of a single, centralized, source of energy so attractive to these psychopaths is the fact that every unit of energy generated, and every unit of energy used, is subject to their control.)

Your question about how to make sure the techno-green-EV-yuppy-authoritarians shoulder their fair share for the environmental degradation they've caused is a question for the central planners, who, I'm sure, will have that answer as well. I'll just keep moving further out to get away from both of them.
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by Pointedstick » Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:31 pm

Maddy wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:41 pm
Honestly, I'm so divorced from the lifestyle of these people that I don't really know how they think.
That much is pretty clear, given the caricature being painted of hypocritical hyper-consuming anti-work authoritarians who approve of centrally-controlled sources of energy production (???????). If I didn't know that you're a Walden-style hermit, I might recommend to stop spending so much time on Reddit. :)

Back in the real world, I'm a person with a $30,000 EV but no electric lawnmower, robot vacuum, or spying doorbell. I work at least 60 hours a week at a job that very much contributes to a sense of self-actualization. 100% of my house and car's energy needs are provided in net by solar panels I own--a far more decentralized form of energy consumption than burning petroleum products. The giant battery in my EV gives my house the ability to ride out power outages of up to several days, which is something I've actually had the opportunity to do and increases my self-sufficiency. I have computed my family's carbon footprint using multiple methods, and all of them show us at less than half the per-capita national average. I'm sure yours is even less, but below average is still pretty good, right?

And finally, I must note that not once in this thread did I ever say that anything should be mandated, required, banned, or censored. I don't think anyone did. We were mostly talking about the geopolitics of energy in Europe, a subject mostly unrelated to what you're complaining about.

So while I very much consider myself an environmentalist energy nerd yuppie, I'm not sure I recognize myself in your perception of what people like me must be like and think like. I think you should maybe leave that cabin more often and actually meet some us in real life sometime. You might discover that there's substantial overlap in our desires for resiliency, self-sufficiency, simplicity, and care for the natural world.
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by boglerdude » Sun Sep 11, 2022 1:45 am

I would like to put carnivores and SUV drivers in the gulag. Its just that covid has showed me that when you give the government that much power, everyone goes in. Neighbors gleefully turn on each other
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by Maddy » Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:58 am

Pointedstick wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:31 pm

That much is pretty clear, given the caricature being painted of hypocritical hyper-consuming anti-work authoritarians who approve of centrally-controlled sources of energy production (???????). If I didn't know that you're a Walden-style hermit, I might recommend to stop spending so much time on Reddit. :)

Back in the real world, I'm a person with a $30,000 EV but no electric lawnmower, robot vacuum, or spying doorbell. I work at least 60 hours a week at a job that very much contributes to a sense of self-actualization. 100% of my house and car's energy needs are provided in net by solar panels I own--a far more decentralized form of energy consumption than burning petroleum products. The giant battery in my EV gives my house the ability to ride out power outages of up to several days, which is something I've actually had the opportunity to do and increases my self-sufficiency. I have computed my family's carbon footprint using multiple methods, and all of them show us at less than half the per-capita national average. I'm sure yours is even less, but below average is still pretty good, right?

And finally, I must note that not once in this thread did I ever say that anything should be mandated, required, banned, or censored. I don't think anyone did. We were mostly talking about the geopolitics of energy in Europe, a subject mostly unrelated to what you're complaining about.

So while I very much consider myself an environmentalist energy nerd yuppie, I'm not sure I recognize myself in your perception of what people like me must be like and think like. I think you should maybe leave that cabin more often and actually meet some us in real life sometime. You might discover that there's substantial overlap in our desires for resiliency, self-sufficiency, simplicity, and care for the natural world.
I'm sure it's all in my imagination.
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by Smith1776 » Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:38 pm

Maddy wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:55 am
What's most obvious to me:

(1) That there is a group of people who want to believe that there is a Garden of Eden in which every want can be fulfilled without any corresponding cost. These generally are NOT the people who live simple, low-impact lives. They want all of the perks of modern living, including $70,000 EVs, and the ability to "self actualize" free of the constraints of work, and are continually in search of a technology that will allow them to claim that their quest for the next and better gadget is somehow bettering the world.

(2) That these people generally have an overinflated view of their intellectual abilities and, as a result, do not think it at all officious for them to prescribe how other people should live.

(3) That these people have a curious inability to comprehend, and incorporate in their views, the concept of a pluralistic society. They tend to view those who do not agree with them as ignorant and/or unwilling to see the truth. This is the "identity trap" described by Harry Browne. Other people are seen either as clones of oneself or as people who SHOULD be clones of oneself.
This was insightful and well said. Lots of food for thought. Thanks.
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by vnatale » Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:50 pm

Maddy wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:55 am

What's most obvious to me:

(1) That there is a group of people who want to believe that there is a Garden of Eden in which every want can be fulfilled without any corresponding cost. These generally are NOT the people who live simple, low-impact lives. They want all of the perks of modern living, including $70,000 EVs, and the ability to "self actualize" free of the constraints of work, and are continually in search of a technology that will allow them to claim that their quest for the next and better gadget is somehow bettering the world.

(2) That these people generally have an overinflated view of their intellectual abilities and, as a result, do not think it at all officious for them to prescribe how other people should live.

(3) That these people have a curious inability to comprehend, and incorporate in their views, the concept of a pluralistic society. They tend to view those who do not agree with them as ignorant and/or unwilling to see the truth. This is the "identity trap" described by Harry Browne. Other people are seen either as clones of oneself or as people who SHOULD be clones of oneself.


Seems somewhat related to the above that way back in my state of Massachusetts things were way worse then than now in terms of freedom?

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Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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vnatale
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Re: Scarce and high priced energy in Europe

Post by vnatale » Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:08 pm

Maddy wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:55 am

What's most obvious to me:

(1) That there is a group of people who want to believe that there is a Garden of Eden in which every want can be fulfilled without any corresponding cost. These generally are NOT the people who live simple, low-impact lives. They want all of the perks of modern living, including $70,000 EVs, and the ability to "self actualize" free of the constraints of work, and are continually in search of a technology that will allow them to claim that their quest for the next and better gadget is somehow bettering the world.

(2) That these people generally have an overinflated view of their intellectual abilities and, as a result, do not think it at all officious for them to prescribe how other people should live.

(3) That these people have a curious inability to comprehend, and incorporate in their views, the concept of a pluralistic society. They tend to view those who do not agree with them as ignorant and/or unwilling to see the truth. This is the "identity trap" described by Harry Browne. Other people are seen either as clones of oneself or as people who SHOULD be clones of oneself.


Good thing you and me and all others here were not "loyalists" during Revolutionary War times!

"There were many reasons to remain loyal: devotion to king and Crown, business connections with the imperial bureaucracy, caution, apathy, and, sometimes, frustration with the excesses of the patriot masses. We must remember that no more than half the (white) colonists were outright patriots. Yet rebel crowds (or mobs, depending on your point of view) from that fraction took it upon themselves not just to protest but to take up arms, to engage in acts of violence, and, frankly, to enforce adherence to their own cause. This drew the ire of many a loyalist — or even neutral — observer. Consider a brilliant satire penned by New York loyalists in 1774 and titled “At a Meeting of the True Sons of Liberty.” The authors mock the patriot penchant for dramatic proclamations and list fifteen farcical “resolutions.” The fifteenth, and final, is instructive:

RESOLVED, lastly, that every Man, Woman, or Child, who doth not agree with our Sentiments, whether he, she, or they, understand them or not, is an Enemy to his Country, wheresoever he was born…and that he ought at least to be tarred and feathered, if not hanged, drawn and quartered; all Statutes, Laws and Ordinances whatsoever to the contrary notwithstanding.

The loyalists and the many fence-sitters — the latter group surely had sizable numbers — found the patriots exhausting and intrusive. Some took up arms for the British cause, others disseminated loyalist pamphlets, and many held their tongues until it was all over.

Often, neutrality or conscientious loyalism was seen by the patriots as unacceptable. With British regulars pinned down and concentrated by the mere existence of Washington’s Continental army, patriot militias policed allegiance to the rebellion in unoccupied towns and villages. It is not that there weren’t plenty of loyalists; it’s that the British always overestimated the number prepared to throw in their lot militarily with the fleeting, ever-on-the-move British army. By trying hard to raise such loyalist units, the British ended up fomenting a civil war, while lacking the troop numbers and mobility to back their colonial allies in the distant cities and hamlets."
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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