Alternatives to Modern Medicine

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Maddy
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Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Maddy » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:47 pm

I'll start out by stating that I have the highest regard for traditional physicians and for the rigorous education and training that traditional MDs go through. As far as I'm concerned, it is unparalleled.

But as time has gone by, I've found myself looking for an alternative to the traditional medical doctor. Why? Well, for several reasons. One is that medicine has become pretty uniformly high-tech--which is great if you're a 5-year-old needing heart surgery, but not so great when you're in your sixth decade of life and the game has become nearly 100 percent about quality of life. Which, in my view, is pretty much anathema to the idea of having tubes stuck up your nose.

But there are other reasons. Try finding a Marcus Welby these days. For that matter, try finding any physician that operates independently and is permitted to make uncompromised medical judgments in the interest of his patients. Try finding an MD who doesn't work for a national medical conglomerate, and that keeps paper records that aren't shared with 6,000 other people and entities. Or who isn't flanked by an observer of some sort. Or who isn't glancing anxiously at his watch while you explain that you've got all the symptoms of cancer, confirmed by virtually every website you've visited, and that it's taken you seven years to get up the guts to actually make an appointment.

But if there are alternatives, they're sure hard to find. The naturopathic route is wonderful in theory, especially when it comes to the chronic, degenerative, functional stuff. But I've been disappointed over and over with the truly abysmal knowledge base of the several naturopaths I've seen over the years (including those working out of a supposedly world-class training institution) and their naive willingness to delve into expensive treatment protocols without having the slightest idea what they're treating. A Harvard-trained M.D. with naturopathic inclinations, like Dr. Andrew Weil, would be damned near perfect, but if he's got even one clone out there, it's a well-kept secret.

Occasionally, you run across a practitioner of "integrative medicine." These practitioners claim to integrate both traditional medical principles and modalities with alternative ones, picking and choosing the best from each discipline. Sounds good, until you start examining credentials, which nearly always are on the "alternative" side. Which raises the question how somebody with no traditional medical education or training can possibly "integrate" it with anything. I guess some things will have to remain mysteries.

Which brings me to the subject of osteopathy. This is a rather curious profession, and one that I know very little about. Apparently the training of osteopaths is at least somewhat analogous to that of an M.D., but their focus tends to be more wholistic. And they are considerably less likely than MDs to be associated with large medical conglomerates. So far, so good. But there remains in this profession an odd vestegial focus on the musculoskeletal system is the root of all disease. Huh? In fairness, there appear to be a good number of osteopathic physicians (especially those who have pursued specialties) whose practices seem completely divorced from that historical remnant. There are osteopathic dermatologists, osteopathic surgeons, etc., who appear to do pretty much the same thing that MD specialists do. But that, then, raises the question of why they chose to go the osteopathic route. Were they unable to get into a traditional medical school?

It's kind of depressing that after searching as long and hard as I have, I still have found no viable alternative to traditional medicine. Which means, in my case, that I continue to do my own self-doctoring and hope for the best. I admit that this sucks as a long-term plan. I worry about the day that something goes seriously wrong and I won't have a primary care doc to go to bat for me.

I'm curious to know (especially given the high level of interest expressed on this board toward alternative health): What has your experience been with alternative practitioners? Have you found a discipline that actually works for you? How do you go about effectively vetting practitioners?
Last edited by Maddy on Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:26 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:23 pm

You may enjoy reading this article.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Maddy
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Maddy » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:41 pm

That's very interesting, Kriegs, because at one point I actually searched the internet for an M.D. that had a significant Amish following. It seemed a logical way of finding someone who was comfortable with old-fashioned low-tech medicine, and who had managed to gain the trust of a group of people notorious for their distrust of modernity. But as far as I know, there aren't any old-order plain communities in this region. There is a notable Mennonite presence, but they're largely modern and tend to go to the same doctors and hospitals as everybody else.

The article resonates with me, completely.

One thing about the Amish I've learned: It is not so much that they are opposed to technology (or modernity) per se, but that they deem it important to consider thoughtfully whether a particular innovation will, in the end, actually improve or detract from their lives.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by I Shrugged » Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:59 pm

Very good questions, Maddy. I’d love to find the same kind of doctor.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Benko » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:43 pm

Maddy,

I'm an MD and have explored a wide variety of alternative approaches and found many that are very helpful. Often it is choosing the right tool(s) for the specific problem.

To be clear you are just looking for someone to help you with wellness and don't actually have the hopeless disease (which may or may not actually be hopeless)?

I don't know that there is such a thing as a naturopathic Marcus Welby. I can recommend specific approaches/kinds of practitioners for specific problems, but in general you will have to supervise your own health care using conventional and possibly other kinds of practitioners as appropriate. I've listed below a few pointers in case they are helpful.

A cutting edge conventional medicine: follow Peter Attia, Rhonda Patrick, Jason Fung, etc. e.g. significant health benefits of e.g. intermittent and periodic longer fasts, saunas, etc. You can check out their videos on you tube/their websites. deeply explore benefits of diet, etc.

B. I've just started working with a practitioner of the sort you mentioned: Dr. Cole. He has book and you can hear him on YouTube videos. Not sure I'd just see him for general wellness, but I had seasonal flu vaccine (not covid vaccine) last fall which resulted in an autoimmune condition. Cole is very good with food allergies (see his book) and the kind of issue I'm having and he gets good reviews. Yes, not cheap but so far impressed with what I've seen of how he works.

C. I'm a big fan of Chinese herbs and I'd find a good Chinese herbalist. Rather than just sick or well, one thing Chinese medicine deals with is improving functioning i.e. tonic Chinese herbs can be used to improve various body functions which may not be ill by western stardards, but are not optimally functioning. Several flavors of Chinese medicine. Best is CCM (Classical/Canonical Chinese medicine). Rare and I know one in Chicago who is very good. More common is TCM or 5 element schools. Find experienced practitioner and over months herbs can produce significant benefits (quicker benefits if treating an acute illness).
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Maddy » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:56 pm

Thanks for the resources, Benko. A few years ago, when we were discussing Jiogulan (sp?) and other herbs with Metformin-like properties, I learned a ton from you. Could I ask what is the nature of your own practice?

How would someone go about finding someone such as yourself in a given locality? By that I'm referring to a traditionally-educated physician that has the flexibility to consider alternative approaches to things.

I guess I'm thinking less about support for general health (which I agree is well-suited to self-management), and more about having a good diagnostician and ally in the wings in the event something comes up. About a year ago, I had a good friend die as a result of organ failure secondary to the recurrence of cancer. I had her health care POA. Having gone through traditional cancer treatment once, she was dead-set against doing it again, and that manifested in her reluctance during the intervening years to get connected with a doc. Trying to get her help when things went acute turned out to be a freaking nightmare.

And no, I don't have any dreaded disease. But I have, on occasion, worried needlessly and at great length about something that could easily have been ruled out had I not been so reluctant to make that appointment. The internet is great for ruling things in; not so great for ruling them out.

P.S. Is that Dr. WILL Cole?
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by WiseOne » Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:27 am

I had looked into finding a functional medicine practitioner because I do like that philosophy, but most of them seem to have a very high QI (Quack Index), especially here in NYC.

Also, I just plain don't need a primary care MD. I can self-refer for the preventive tests I want, get my own blood tests from Quest labs, and use online video visits for anything that crops up that require a temporary medication (I can't self-prescribe and that's not a good idea anyway). I don't have any chronic or serious acute medical conditions requiring treatment, and if I develop one I'll find myself an appropriate specialist. It's nice being one of the very few 58 year olds in the First World who doesn't take any regular medications. I'm totally with you on the quality of life issue. I hate being cajoled and railroaded into getting tests and treatments I don't want.

It would be great if there was a good guidebook to self-managing your own primary care. Maddy I suspect you'd prefer that, if you had such a guidebook. There isn't one that I know of, although there are plenty of books that address preventive tests and which ones are actually worth your time (and money). Most are not, as they are statistically more likely to harm you than help you.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Maddy » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:30 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:27 am
I had looked into finding a functional medicine practitioner because I do like that philosophy, but most of them seem to have a very high QI (Quack Index), especially here in NYC.
How, generally, do you go about vetting these people QI-wise? Those who claim to diagnose remotely via "vibrations" picked up by their computer (I'm not kidding, BTW) are the easy case. But there are plenty of nitwits out there who are more difficult to identify.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Benko » Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:30 pm

Maddy,

Yes Will Cole. Do you know him/of him?

Not what you think--I'm a radiologist (interpret x-rays, CT, MRI, etc). I help friends/colleagues when asked/I can be of help. I would have needed a different background to be an integrated practitioner. I was given a decade of antibiotics as a child which messed up my health. So universe made sure I'd be interested/open to non-traditional stuff.

"traditionally-educated physician that has the flexibility to consider alternative approaches to things.

Few MDs are open minded. There are a handful of well known names if you develop a significant condition (Kresser is one other possible name), but finding an internist/family practitioner who is functional medicine practitioner and really good is tough. Find good traditional practitioner so you are sure you get correct western diagnosis and then go from there (ooking into alternative methods for that).


WiseOne,

Certainly there are quacks, but there is a ton of stuff that works.. Trivial example Zheng Gut Shui. Chinese liniment been around for hundreds of years. Applied topically magical at decreasing inflamation/fostering healing e.g. tendonitis, healing bones, etc. Over 1000+ positive reviews on amazon, or just ask any experienced martial artist (they use it on their beat up hands/feet). Way better than anything MDs have to offer.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Maddy » Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:46 am

Benko,

I have only a passing acquaintance with Chinese medicine. Despite my longstanding interest in alternatives, I have found myself turned off by the fact that its prescriptions are so often explained in purely "energetic" terms. Whey they start talking about illness in terms of bodily fluids and energy flow (I had a client once, a purported Chinese doctor, who counseled a client to "breathe through her nipples"), it's hard for me to get with the program.

When you talked about Jiagolan a few years back, in addition to other herbs that act to reduce blood sugar levels, I was impressed with the extent to which you had researched the biochemistry. So I am curious whether you have found sufficiently rigorous, scientific backing for the other alternative approaches you have found useful. Where are you getting that information? Is there a body of literature that can be consistently relied upon?

That's interesting about you being a radiologist. That's one of the most evidence-based specialties I can think of!
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Benko » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:17 am

Maddy,

If you are uncomfortable with something don't use it.

"Breath through your nipples" sounds like Chi Gung which is a different animal from what I'm talking about (Chinese herbs mainly).

"I have found myself turned off by the fact that its prescriptions are so often explained in purely "energetic" terms."

I sympathize but consider that the standard medical model which you are comfortable with:

a. Fails with many/most cases of back pain. A cardiologist I know "kept her back issue in check with yoga" but she hadn't done yoga for awhile so her back flared up so I sent her to an acupuncturist. 1 session and back pain went away. NOTE: Tai chi and yoga both have health benefits because you are giving yourself an energy treatment.

b. Conventional medical model ignores emotional component of illnesses (which are in many illnesses)

c. Unless you break a bone/tear a ligament, many/most musculoskeletal problems need "soft tissue work" as part of solution. The soft tissue work can be from an old school physical therapist (if you can find one), Active Release Technique (often chiropracters) or a good massage therapist. This concept is no more part of western medical model than energy meridians. Physical therapy (I gather) in the name of science, is moving away from this.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Benko » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:24 am

PS I have no scientific evidence for the "magic Chinese liniment", but I've used it myself in many cases, recommended it to a zillion people, and 1000+ amazon positives and been around hundred of years. It is cheap, has no side effects, and works amazingly well.. If you know people of asian background, many of them will know it because their parents used it on them growing up.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Xan » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:10 am

Benko wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:17 am
NOTE: Tai chi and yoga both have health benefits because you are giving yourself an energy treatment.
Benko,

What IS an "energy treatment"?
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by I Shrugged » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:44 am

I have had very good results from acupuncture. So has my wife. I tried it for headaches after not one but two neurologists suggested it. I made it a point to NOT research it, so that I didn’t get turned off by the implausible sounding theories.

It helps me with headaches and some muscles and joints. If I had an acupuncturist on retainer, I’d love to try treatment for more general well-being, stress, etc. It takes a few treatments to really kick in for the thing being treated.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Benko » Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:53 am

Xan wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:10 am
Benko wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:17 am
NOTE: Tai chi and yoga both have health benefits because you are giving yourself an energy treatment.
Benko,

What IS an "energy treatment"?
In the orient the model for health for many different modalities is that of lines of energy AKA meridians. Some restore blocked energy by needles (acupuncture), others by pressure (acupressure), shiatsu, polarity, etc as well as ancient Indian medicine (Ayurvedic) and Chinese herbs. Like those treatments, yoga or tai chi both restore blocked energy (though not often mentioned as such).
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Xan » Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:59 am

Is this kinetic energy, gravitational or electrical potential energy, or something else? What does it mean for it to be blocked?
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Benko » Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:13 am

Xan wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:59 am
Is this kinetic energy, gravitational or electrical potential energy, or something else? What does it mean for it to be blocked?
The energy AKA chi/ki/Qi, et is not something that has any conventional western correlate. Several of the modalities use pulse diagnosis i.e. by putting one's hands on the person's wrists you can feel the pulses (not western pulse) and feel which one(s) are blocked. I practice a Japanese one (Jin Shin Jyutsu) and I can feel which ones are blocked and feel the energy moving as it unblocks.

In these systems, health is proper flow of lines of energy and illness comes from blockage. Blockages can be caused by a number of things including trauma, emotions, diet, etc.

I"m sure it sounds unlikely but acupuncture anesthesia for forget if it was childbirth or surgery was widely publicized in the west like 50 years ago.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Maddy » Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:22 pm

Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, but I've always figured that if something is true, it should be true no matter what angle or discipline you come at it from. Perhaps modern physics and biochemistry have yet to discover something that the ancients knew intuitively or that was observable to them in a manner with which we are unfamiliar. But as physical beings subject to the laws of nature, shouldn't we at least in theory be able to confirm the validity of "energetic" treatments through the scientific method? Or am I missing something here?
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by glennds » Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:12 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:44 am
I have had very good results from acupuncture. So has my wife. I tried it for headaches after not one but two neurologists suggested it. I made it a point to NOT research it, so that I didn’t get turned off by the implausible sounding theories.

It helps me with headaches and some muscles and joints. If I had an acupuncturist on retainer, I’d love to try treatment for more general well-being, stress, etc. It takes a few treatments to really kick in for the thing being treated.
Do you have to go in for treatments on an ongoing basis or else the pain comes back?
Or did you get a series of treatments that fixed your issue and you were done?
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by I Shrugged » Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:08 pm

glennds wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:12 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:44 am
I have had very good results from acupuncture. So has my wife. I tried it for headaches after not one but two neurologists suggested it. I made it a point to NOT research it, so that I didn’t get turned off by the implausible sounding theories.

It helps me with headaches and some muscles and joints. If I had an acupuncturist on retainer, I’d love to try treatment for more general well-being, stress, etc. It takes a few treatments to really kick in for the thing being treated.
Do you have to go in for treatments on an ongoing basis or else the pain comes back?
Or did you get a series of treatments that fixed your issue and you were done?
Series of treatments and then the cure lasted for a relatively long while. If/when the condition recurs, start again.
Last edited by I Shrugged on Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Tortoise » Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:23 pm

This thread is making me wonder if I should recommend an alternative medicine treatment like acupuncture or acupressure for my mom’s sciatica.

She’s had it off and on for the past six months. The pain makes it hard for her to travel anywhere or socialize. The first wave went away for a few weeks after physical therapy, but then it came back. Now physical therapy isn’t helping, and neither is therapeutic massage. She doesn’t want to see a chiropractor.

My dad, a retired physician with traditional Western medical views, seems to think my mom’s only options at this point are back surgery (risky, with uncertain outcome) or just learning to live with the pain.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:13 pm

If someone knows of doctors in Northern IL who do not subscribe to the fat is bad, cholesterol will kill you you gotta be on a statin philosophy, please let me know.

My Dad, recently in the hospital again, is a diabetic. His breakfast, in the effing hospital, pancakes, waffles, fruit, yogurt, etc.

I was there when the nurse came in to measure his blood sugar. At 360. And they feed him that shit.

And now he has a palliative nurse, giving info like below to them. Please tell me, for a guy who is on O2 and has heart failure and water retention, aim for 10g or less of fat per meal?

This is why I have not seen a doctor for 7 years.

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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Maddy » Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:34 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:13 pm


Image
The infantilizing doesn't help, does it?
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Benko » Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:38 pm

Tortoise,

Back surgery is very often a really bad idea.

I had shooting buttock pain going into my toe which my chiropractor diagnosed as a disk. I followed the exercises he recommended (standard stuff) and it resolved within a couple weeks. I forget the difference between sciatica and disk, but a Chiro is who I'd see. NB: There are bad chiros, just like any other kind of practitioner. This one knows not just Chiro but a wide variety of other techniques and he can choose right technique for right problem.
glennds wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:12 pm
Do you have to go in for treatments on an ongoing basis or else the pain comes back?
Or did you get a series of treatments that fixed your issue and you were done?
The longer you have any problem often/usually the longer/more difficult it is to get rid of.

Maddy,

If something is effective it should be able to produce positive results, that is all that matters. Whether it can be explained by standard western science is less important.

My Chiro (who is very good) is very conservative and only believes what he can explain from the point of view of chiropractic or the other different techniques he's learned (all of which are outside western medicine). He is skeptical of all the energy stuff as well.

I've seen too many dramatic responses to have any doubt that some things clearly work (others I'm not sure). If western medicine worked for everything it would be one thing, but it has huge holes, areas it doesn't understand/can't help much (or helps with really bad side effects).
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Xan » Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:46 pm

Benko wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:38 pm
Maddy,

If something is effective it should be able to produce positive results, that is all that matters. Whether it can be explained by standard western science is less important.
The mechanism being unexplained by Western science is probably okay, as long as we can be reasonably certain there aren't unwanted side effects.

But whether or not it in fact does produce positive results SHOULD be accessible to Western science. We have double-blind studies and we are very good at determining whether a given treatment outperforms a placebo.

Surely the energy stuff has been compared to a placebo. Does it work or doesn't it?
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