What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

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What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:48 am

Like pp4me, I'm posting this at Maddy's urging for people to post more things for thoughtful discussion.

I recently came across an article from 2016 that might prove interesting to discuss. At least Time magazine thought it was an interesting topic in 1966. I got a chuckle out of Nietzche's book title "The Gay Science"; that was back when gay meant happy.

https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blo ... -god-dead/

I think the article's last sentence is intriguing: “God is dead, and we have killed him.” When it comes to justifying morality, can anything legitimately take his place?

My premises and questions to begin a discussion:

* Everyone has a god or the God. If the God is dead, how do we determine what is right and what is wrong?

* My definition of a god (or God) - That which gives one security, identity, and meaning; that in which we trust. Do you have a different definition that might lead to a more fruitful discussion?

* Can a society long exist without a significant majority of members holding a common source of right and wrong, i.e. a commonly held god or God? Some examples of hot buttons, hot issues that currently seem to divide our society: euthansia, abortion, small or large government, 1st Amendment, tolerance for differing views, 2nd Amendment, BLM or all lives matter, white supremacy, open or closed borders, appropriate tax rate, man-caused global warming, etc. Who or what decides what is right and what is wrong if God is dead? My sense is we as individuals are increasingly becoming our own god, and thus no more commonly held god to serve as a societal glue.

That's probably enough to get us started - if anyone wishes to chime in.
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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by sweetbthescrivener » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:17 pm

This is obviously a deliberately provocative statement, meant more to define the state of humanity than the state of God.

I would imagine that he was referring to the way that the scientific, mechanistic world view was supplanting the idea of a benevolent creator for people.

No longer would we look at the world and wonder why God made things the way he did.

The 'whys' are gone, supplanted by endless 'whats'.

Wisdom becomes data, information.

And each person is free to make of it what he will.

Even in churches now, the crucifix bows to the lab coat.

I think he knew what he was talking about.
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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by Xan » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:25 pm

sweetbthescrivener wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:17 pm
This is obviously a deliberately provocative statement, meant more to define the state of humanity than the state of God.
I think it can be read either of two ways, and I'm not sure which is correct. Either Nietzsche is lamenting that people no longer have the proper regard for God, or he's exalting in humanity's growing past the need for God. Wasn't he really doing the latter?

As an exercise in examining the statement on its own, I prefer option 1, and largely agree with you, sweetb.
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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by sweetbthescrivener » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:45 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:25 pm
sweetbthescrivener wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:17 pm
This is obviously a deliberately provocative statement, meant more to define the state of humanity than the state of God.
I think it can be read either of two ways, and I'm not sure which is correct. Either Nietzsche is lamenting that people no longer have the proper regard for God, or he's exalting in humanity's growing past the need for God. Wasn't he really doing the latter?

As an exercise in examining the statement on its own, I prefer option 1, and largely agree with you, sweetb.
I would prefer option 1 as well. Haven't read him in a while but if memory serves he was pretty opaque. Does anyone know which he meant, for sure?
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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by Xan » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:55 pm

The complete statement seems to be:
God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?
which sounds a lot more like the "lament" option.
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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by Smith1776 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:12 pm

Nietzche's proclamation that God is dead was not a statement made in triumph.

He was basically saying that God, religion, and the Church had ceded its position as providing a foundation, or moral framework, for how people should conduct their lives. As such, people themselves would become "God" and shape their own morality. He further predicted massive bloodshed in the 20th century as a result of this cultural paradigm shift and of course he was absolutely spot on about that.

Since then we have been careening and overshooting between the extreme left and extreme right to our own detriment with very little in the way of orienting ourselves.
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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:00 pm

I have been planning a personal Nietzsche module for a while now, so great timing. I was just listening to a podcast today where Peter Thiel says,
he called Christianity a belief for slaves. It's this thing that people who are victims, haven't done well in life, they like to explain it... and we need to go back to this harsher, more pagan world, in which we have no problem with sacrificing humans, and we're not so sentimental, and all these things. And Girard would claim that Nietzsche, understood almost better than anyone in the 19th century, that Christianity had subverted all the values of the ancient world.
And I think that's a pretty cool thing to think about.
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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by Smith1776 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:01 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:00 pm
I have been planning a personal Nietzsche module for a while now, so great timing. I was just listening to a podcast today where Peter Thiel says,
he called Christianity a belief for slaves. It's this thing that people who are victims, haven't done well in life, they like to explain it... and we need to go back to this harsher, more pagan world, in which we have no problem with sacrificing humans, and we're not so sentimental, and all these things. And Girard would claim that Nietzsche, understood almost better than anyone in the 19th century, that Christianity had subverted all the values of the ancient world.
And I think that's a pretty cool thing to think about.
Dang. Interesting.
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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by glennds » Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:16 pm

Desert wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:59 pm


Of course there is a well-worn joke that goes something like this:

"God is dead"
- Nietzsche

"Nietzsche is dead"
- God
Clapton is God

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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:43 pm

It's plausible that they meant to write "Clapton is good" but they were bad spellers.
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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by glennds » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:48 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:43 pm
It's plausible that they meant to write "Clapton is good" but they were bad spellers.
Unless the dog in the photo is named Clapton and whoever wrote the graffiti was dyslexic
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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by Tortoise » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:11 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:43 pm
It's plausible that they meant to write "Clapton is good" but they were bad spellers.
No regerts.

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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by pp4me » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:17 pm

I've never read Nietzsche but I've been able to absorb the Cliff Notes version of his philosophy from things I've read on the internet.

Having said that I still have no clue what he was actually saying but I think he was right in saying that God is Dead to the extent that people are finally realizing that the God presented to us by the major religions can't possibly exist. There are just way too many logical problems with so-called divine revelation in books as we know them and it is really hard to believe that the religions that have formed around those books are anything more than a scam to keep people under control.

I am completely open to the idea that there is a higher intelligence in the universe from a purely mathematical point of view but until the creator reveals himself, if he exists, I'm going to withhold my judgment. The idea that the one true God would send me to hell for all eternity for not believing the unproven claims of one particular religion (aka "faith") is one of the logical problems (aka scams) I'm referring to.

Quite honestly I put the claims of any religion like that on the same level as the robo calls I get telling me that the warranty on my car is about to expire and I need to call immediately if I want to keep it.
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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by pp4me » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:42 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:48 am
* Can a society long exist without a significant majority of members holding a common source of right and wrong, i.e. a commonly held god or God? Some examples of hot buttons, hot issues that currently seem to divide our society: euthansia, abortion, small or large government, 1st Amendment, tolerance for differing views, 2nd Amendment, BLM or all lives matter, white supremacy, open or closed borders, appropriate tax rate, man-caused global warming, etc. Who or what decides what is right and what is wrong if God is dead? My sense is we as individuals are increasingly becoming our own god, and thus no more commonly held god to serve as a societal glue.
The question of slavery seems to be relevant to the point you are making. Any literal reading of the Bible, both Old Testament and New explicitly sanctions it and yet we fought a war over it with Christians on both sides.

So what really is the source of morality then?
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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by flyingpylon » Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:51 am

pp4me wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:17 pm
I've never read Nietzsche but I've been able to absorb the Cliff Notes version of his philosophy from things I've read on the internet.

Having said that I still have no clue what he was actually saying but I think he was right in saying that God is Dead to the extent that people are finally realizing that the God presented to us by the major religions can't possibly exist. There are just way too many logical problems with so-called divine revelation in books as we know them and it is really hard to believe that the religions that have formed around those books are anything more than a scam to keep people under control.

I am completely open to the idea that there is a higher intelligence in the universe from a purely mathematical point of view but until the creator reveals himself, if he exists, I'm going to withhold my judgment. The idea that the one true God would send me to hell for all eternity for not believing the unproven claims of one particular religion (aka "faith") is one of the logical problems (aka scams) I'm referring to.

Quite honestly I put the claims of any religion like that on the same level as the robo calls I get telling me that the warranty on my car is about to expire and I need to call immediately if I want to keep it.
You might be interested in Joseph Campbell’s concept of The Masks of God. Way oversimplified, a universal power or truth exists but is unknowable by man. Different cultures create deities, religions, and myths that are “masks” that help them see, understand, and experience that universal power.
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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by pp4me » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:44 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:51 am
pp4me wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:17 pm
I've never read Nietzsche but I've been able to absorb the Cliff Notes version of his philosophy from things I've read on the internet.

Having said that I still have no clue what he was actually saying but I think he was right in saying that God is Dead to the extent that people are finally realizing that the God presented to us by the major religions can't possibly exist. There are just way too many logical problems with so-called divine revelation in books as we know them and it is really hard to believe that the religions that have formed around those books are anything more than a scam to keep people under control.

I am completely open to the idea that there is a higher intelligence in the universe from a purely mathematical point of view but until the creator reveals himself, if he exists, I'm going to withhold my judgment. The idea that the one true God would send me to hell for all eternity for not believing the unproven claims of one particular religion (aka "faith") is one of the logical problems (aka scams) I'm referring to.

Quite honestly I put the claims of any religion like that on the same level as the robo calls I get telling me that the warranty on my car is about to expire and I need to call immediately if I want to keep it.
You might be interested in Joseph Campbell’s concept of The Masks of God. Way oversimplified, a universal power or truth exists but is unknowable by man. Different cultures create deities, religions, and myths that are “masks” that help them see, understand, and experience that universal power.
Sounds a little like Jordan Peterson's archetypes.
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Re: What Did Nietzsche Mean by ‘God is Dead’?

Post by Smith1776 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:58 pm

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