Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

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glennds
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by glennds » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm

Vinegar has been shown to blunt the blood glucose and hence serum insulin spike when taken with carb heavy foods. A good example in practice would be the little plate with the olive oil and balsamic vinegar that a good crusty loaf of Italian bread is just begging to be dipped in before eating it.

This is not pseudo science. The phenomenon has been studied and documented in the orthodox medical literature: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16015276/

I have read that the blunting effect can be as much as 20-30%. I think the degree is dependent on the acidity of the vinegar to some degree.
This speaks well to the practice of starting a meal with a vinaigrette dressed salad, as is common in the Mediterranean diet.

Which leads me to this question: These practices, both the salad and the vinegar/olive oil with bread, have been custom in Italy forever. Maybe back to the time of the Romans.

So is it a case of ancient wisdom, where they *knew*. Or is it just a delicious happy accident?
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:12 pm

glennds wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm

Vinegar has been shown to blunt the blood glucose and hence serum insulin spike when taken with carb heavy foods. A good example in practice would be the little plate with the olive oil and balsamic vinegar that a good crusty loaf of Italian bread is just begging to be dipped in before eating it.

This is not pseudo science. The phenomenon has been studied and documented in the orthodox medical literature: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16015276/

I have read that the blunting effect can be as much as 20-30%. I think the degree is dependent on the acidity of the vinegar to some degree.
This speaks well to the practice of starting a meal with a vinaigrette dressed salad, as is common in the Mediterranean diet.

Which leads me to this question: These practices, both the salad and the vinegar/olive oil with bread, have been custom in Italy forever. Maybe back to the time of the Romans.

So is it a case of ancient wisdom, where they *knew*. Or is it just a delicious happy accident?


I chose not to eat a lot of foods. But I absolutely hate and cannot stand the smell and taste of balsamic vinegar. I can be driven out of a room if it is too present on other peoples' foods.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by Xan » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:18 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:12 pm
glennds wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm
Vinegar has been shown to blunt the blood glucose and hence serum insulin spike when taken with carb heavy foods. A good example in practice would be the little plate with the olive oil and balsamic vinegar that a good crusty loaf of Italian bread is just begging to be dipped in before eating it.

This is not pseudo science. The phenomenon has been studied and documented in the orthodox medical literature: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16015276/

I have read that the blunting effect can be as much as 20-30%. I think the degree is dependent on the acidity of the vinegar to some degree.
This speaks well to the practice of starting a meal with a vinaigrette dressed salad, as is common in the Mediterranean diet.

Which leads me to this question: These practices, both the salad and the vinegar/olive oil with bread, have been custom in Italy forever. Maybe back to the time of the Romans.

So is it a case of ancient wisdom, where they *knew*. Or is it just a delicious happy accident?
I chose not to eat a lot of foods. But I absolutely hate and cannot stand the smell and taste of balsamic vinegar. I can be driven out of a room if it is too present on other peoples' foods.
What about garlic? Are you a vampire?
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by glennds » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:53 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:12 pm
glennds wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm
Vinegar has been shown to blunt the blood glucose and hence serum insulin spike when taken with carb heavy foods. A good example in practice would be the little plate with the olive oil and balsamic vinegar that a good crusty loaf of Italian bread is just begging to be dipped in before eating it.

This is not pseudo science. The phenomenon has been studied and documented in the orthodox medical literature: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16015276/

I have read that the blunting effect can be as much as 20-30%. I think the degree is dependent on the acidity of the vinegar to some degree.
This speaks well to the practice of starting a meal with a vinaigrette dressed salad, as is common in the Mediterranean diet.

Which leads me to this question: These practices, both the salad and the vinegar/olive oil with bread, have been custom in Italy forever. Maybe back to the time of the Romans.

So is it a case of ancient wisdom, where they *knew*. Or is it just a delicious happy accident?
I chose not to eat a lot of foods. But I absolutely hate and cannot stand the smell and taste of balsamic vinegar. I can be driven out of a room if it is too present on other peoples' foods.
Vinny,
Do you hate all forms of vinegar, or only balsamic?

The glucose/insulin blunting effect is not specific to balsamic, so any vinegar or vinaigrette would work. I infer that the benefits would also accrue from other acidic foods like lemon or lime juice, or fermented foods. I wonder if the Koreans are on to something with Kimchi, or the Germans with Sauerkraut. Dill pickles. I might eat Mexican ceviche a little more recklessly.
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by l82start » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:53 pm

glennds wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm

Which leads me to this question: These practices, both the salad and the vinegar/olive oil with bread, have been custom in Italy forever. Maybe back to the time of the Romans.

So is it a case of ancient wisdom, where they *knew*. Or is it just a delicious happy accident?
bread made with heirloom grains, traditional methods, and no corn-syrup, is a completely different beast than the garbage that passes for bread in the west, up until fairly recently some (many?) European countries had rules about what you are and aren't allowed to add in and still call it bread. real bread is not full keto but it is far less harmful than SAD bread...
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:37 pm

Xan wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:18 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:12 pm

glennds wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm

Vinegar has been shown to blunt the blood glucose and hence serum insulin spike when taken with carb heavy foods. A good example in practice would be the little plate with the olive oil and balsamic vinegar that a good crusty loaf of Italian bread is just begging to be dipped in before eating it.

This is not pseudo science. The phenomenon has been studied and documented in the orthodox medical literature: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16015276/

I have read that the blunting effect can be as much as 20-30%. I think the degree is dependent on the acidity of the vinegar to some degree.
This speaks well to the practice of starting a meal with a vinaigrette dressed salad, as is common in the Mediterranean diet.

Which leads me to this question: These practices, both the salad and the vinegar/olive oil with bread, have been custom in Italy forever. Maybe back to the time of the Romans.

So is it a case of ancient wisdom, where they *knew*. Or is it just a delicious happy accident?


I chose not to eat a lot of foods. But I absolutely hate and cannot stand the smell and taste of balsamic vinegar. I can be driven out of a room if it is too present on other peoples' foods.


What about garlic? Are you a vampire?


No. I love garlic. And, no I am not a vampire. I used to call one of our former softball coach a vampire because he always tried to position our bench out of the sun while now that I am the coach I am always trying to get us in the sun.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:38 pm

glennds wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:53 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:12 pm

glennds wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm

Vinegar has been shown to blunt the blood glucose and hence serum insulin spike when taken with carb heavy foods. A good example in practice would be the little plate with the olive oil and balsamic vinegar that a good crusty loaf of Italian bread is just begging to be dipped in before eating it.

This is not pseudo science. The phenomenon has been studied and documented in the orthodox medical literature: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16015276/

I have read that the blunting effect can be as much as 20-30%. I think the degree is dependent on the acidity of the vinegar to some degree.
This speaks well to the practice of starting a meal with a vinaigrette dressed salad, as is common in the Mediterranean diet.

Which leads me to this question: These practices, both the salad and the vinegar/olive oil with bread, have been custom in Italy forever. Maybe back to the time of the Romans.

So is it a case of ancient wisdom, where they *knew*. Or is it just a delicious happy accident?


I chose not to eat a lot of foods. But I absolutely hate and cannot stand the smell and taste of balsamic vinegar. I can be driven out of a room if it is too present on other peoples' foods.


Vinny,
Do you hate all forms of vinegar, or only balsamic?

The glucose/insulin blunting effect is not specific to balsamic, so any vinegar or vinaigrette would work. I infer that the benefits would also accrue from other acidic foods like lemon or lime juice, or fermented foods. I wonder if the Koreans are on to something with Kimchi, or the Germans with Sauerkraut. Dill pickles. I might eat Mexican ceviche a little more recklessly.


I love kosher dill pickles and other apple cider vinegar products. It is that balsamic vinegar taste and smell that provokes such a negative reaction to me. Related....I will eat any vegetable except for beets. To me they have a vinegar-like taste.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:39 pm

I remember the bodybuilding internet being big on taking shots of apple cider vinegar back in the early 2000s. Bodybuilders are notorious for tolerating disgusting stuff as long as it has noticeable effects. I don't think it's a thing anymore, so take from that what you will...
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:41 pm

l82start wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:53 pm

glennds wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm


Which leads me to this question: These practices, both the salad and the vinegar/olive oil with bread, have been custom in Italy forever. Maybe back to the time of the Romans.

So is it a case of ancient wisdom, where they *knew*. Or is it just a delicious happy accident?
bread made with heirloom grains, traditional methods, and no corn-syrup, is a completely different beast than the garbage that passes for bread in the west, up until fairly recently some (many?) European countries had rules about what you are and aren't allowed to add in and still call it bread. real bread is not full keto but it is far less harmful than SAD bread...


Anyone ever made bread using a Vita-mix? Few and simple ingredients...yet it comes out tasting like cake.

The Vita-mix grounds the berries into flour....so no fresher flour. Then it kneads the dough. The only problem used to be was that the loaves were not huge and it was so delicious that I could not stop myself from eating half a loaf at a time.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by glennds » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:56 pm

l82start wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:53 pm
glennds wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm

Which leads me to this question: These practices, both the salad and the vinegar/olive oil with bread, have been custom in Italy forever. Maybe back to the time of the Romans.

So is it a case of ancient wisdom, where they *knew*. Or is it just a delicious happy accident?
bread made with heirloom grains, traditional methods, and no corn-syrup, is a completely different beast than the garbage that passes for bread in the west, up until fairly recently some (many?) European countries had rules about what you are and aren't allowed to add in and still call it bread. real bread is not full keto but it is far less harmful than SAD bread...
If you're talking about Wonder bread and the junk fast food places use for buns, I could not agree with you more.

But artisan bread like what you might find in a good bakery, good restaurants or even a place like Panera might not be quite so bad.
You're right, in France it is a cultural preservation law that in order to call a loaf French bread it can only contain water flour yeast and salt. In Naples, there is a strict pizza certification rule that only flour, yeast, water and salt can be the ingredients in a Napoli pizza crust. No oil or browning agent like malt or honey. You can use other ingredients and call your pizza whatever you want as long as you don't call it Napoli pizza.

But on the subject of ancient heirloom grains, I wish I knew more. I've heard of some like spelt, einkorn and khorasan but never tried baking with them. I have heard for people who are less gluten tolerant that these grains are good options. If you or anyone here is knowledgeable and could share info it would be great.
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by WiseOne » Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:14 am

Some more hints on working toward a keto diet for Maddy:

I think some people do better (or are just fine) with some carbohydrates. Not nearly as much as the USDA recommends, probably no more than 20-30% of calories and some of us can't tolerate that much. The only way to know what your tolerance is, is to get a fingerstick glucose meter and check yourself before & after a meal, to gauge your response. It would be useful also to check insulin levels, but that test isn't readily available.

The trick when you are reducing carbohydrates is to replace the calories not with protein, but with fat. That's hard to do, because we've all had a lifetime of indoctrination that Fat is Bad, especially animal fats. What you have to do is teach yourself to eat and enjoy fats, especially animal fats. I found a book on Amazon describing how to incorporate fat into your cooking & diet, but haven't bothered buying it because I've already figured out all the tricks.

Here are a few tips:

- Seek out fatty cuts of meat, and avoid lean ones. Buy these: pork shoulders, chuck roasts, short ribs, oxtails, ground beef at 80% lean or less, bacon, pork belly, chicken thighs, salmon, canned mackerel or sardines, pork/beef sausages, whole duck. Generally avoid these: chicken breasts especially boneless/skinless, boneless pork chops, pork tenderloin, boneless lamb leg, lean steaks, low fat seafood like tuna.

- When you cook meats, don't drain off the fat unless you really have to, and then be sure to save it for use in cooking vegetables or eggs. Incorporate the fat into the dish instead.

- Meat that has a fat cap, like sirloin cap or pork shoulder: after roasting, peel off the fat cap, return it to the oven and continue baking until it's at least chewy if not a bit crispy. DELICIOUS. I also like frying up chicken skins in place of bacon.

- Slather vegetables with saved animal fats or butter.

- If you find yourself with a lot of saved fats you can't use up quickly enough, make mayonnaise with it. This is very easy if you have a stick blender.

- Make your own yogurt from half and half.

- Berries are delicious with heavy cream instead of the sugar most people put on them. I also use generous amounts of heavy cream in meat dishes, e.g. the salmon filet baked in cream & tomato that I'm making tonight.
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by pp4me » Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:43 am

I watched this video last night about aging on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRt7LjqJ45k

The scientist who was featured has done extensive research on the subject, mostly on rats and there were some impressive findings. To prevent aging he found that the following things have been proven to work....

Calorie restriction (already heard that a lot).

Exercise, especially high intensity (already heard that too).

Always being cold or hot ( heard a little about that but not much)

Not too much protein (first I ever heard of that and was surprised).

Thinking about this in regards to the keto diet I've been lax in sticking to the percentage of protein vs fat and not paying much attention to the ratio because I didn't think it was that important. Apparently it is. Keto calls for 20 to 25 percent generally preferring a higher ratio of fat.
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by Don » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:06 am

pp4me wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:43 am
I watched this video last night about aging on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRt7LjqJ45k

The scientist who was featured has done extensive research on the subject, mostly on rats and there were some impressive findings. To prevent aging he found that the following things have been proven to work....

Calorie restriction (already heard that a lot).

Exercise, especially high intensity (already heard that too).

Always being cold or hot ( heard a little about that but not much)

Not too much protein (first I ever heard of that and was surprised).

Thinking about this in regards to the keto diet I've been lax in sticking to the percentage of protein vs fat and not paying much attention to the ratio because I didn't think it was that important. Apparently it is. Keto calls for 20 to 25 percent generally preferring a higher ratio of fat.
What are the unanticipated results of diets like keto? What does it do to your pancreas and liver? Do we really know?
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by Mark Leavy » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:12 am

Don wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:06 am

What are the unanticipated results of diets like keto? What does it do to your pancreas and liver? Do we really know?
Traditional Inuit, Aleut, Comanche, Mongol and Maasai.

It seems it turns you into a badass.
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:59 pm

The Inuit and Aleut are probably the only ones that ate what we mean by a keto diet. The Mongols and Maasai (include the Scythians here) were pastoralists, so they also drank milk and blood (and booze!), and ate whatever fruit was around and shit like that. It appears that small amounts of carbs + alcohol increases your ability to be a blood-crazed psychopathic warrior.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by D1984 » Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:28 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:59 pm
The Inuit and Aleut are probably the only ones that ate what we mean by a keto diet. The Mongols and Maasai (include the Scythians here) were pastoralists, so they also drank milk and blood (and booze!), and ate whatever fruit was around and shit like that. It appears that small amounts of carbs + alcohol increases your ability to be a blood-crazed psychopathic warrior.
The Inuit and Aleut thing is actually kind of questionable for three reasons:

One, apparently most native Artic peoples (including Inuit and Alaska First Nations) have a genetically caused mild CPT-1a deficiency that makes it more difficult for them to get energy from breaking down fats, harder to produce ketones, and thus less likely to get into true ketosis to begin with even on a high fat, moderate protein, very-low carb diet. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Viqm9On ... d2dCNPvKQ7

Two, how much of their calories came as protein vs how much as fat? Even on a true carnivore diet (all meat, no plants whatsoever) if you eat enough protein relative to fat your body has the ability to convert at least some of the protein you've eaten to glucose for energy via hepatic gluconeogenesis. IIRC the average adult male human adapted to a high-protein-to-fat-ratio carnivore diet can convert up to around 1150-1200 calories of protein to carbohydrate if need be. The Inuit would be eating fatty seal meat and whale meat (with much of the blubber still on it) and probably would be dipping dried fish into oulichan or seal oil but this also overlooks that they had no butter, cream, lard, fatback, fatty bacon, olive oil, coconut oil, or palm oil to use as a dressing/cooking fat/condiment/spread like the rest of the world did and so would get no fat in their diets that way. Finally, in an environment where wood for fuel would have been very scarce, they would've had to save much rendered fat or oil for lighting and heat rather than just being able to consume most of it as food. See https://web.archive.org/web/20141220021 ... -diet.html . There was also the fact that the Inuit eating their native diet presumably did consume (admittedly very small) quantities of berries during the short periods when those were available.

Three, the Inuit/Eskimos would've been eating at least some of their meat raw which would mean that (assuming it was fresh--or had been flash-frozen outside rather than slowly refrigerated and allowed to cool down over several hours) it likely would still contain much of its glycogen. This would be especially true for certain muscle meats or especially liver; also, sperm whale blubber from the ventral and posterior sections of the body can contain from 8 to 30% carbohydrate by weight; https://web.archive.org/web/20141010184 ... k_12-2.pdf . On top of all this, there's the matter that fermenting meat and blubber in a cold anaerobic environment tended to convert some of the meat's protein into carbohydrate; see https://web.archive.org/web/20140308214 ... otics.html and https://web.archive.org/web/20140311062 ... otics.html .

For more overview on why the Inuit diet wasn't as ketogenic as most people assume; see the section on nutrition at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_cuisine . An estimated 15-20% carbohydrate diet (with more than 1/3rd of its calories as protein on top of that) may be "low carb" compared to the SAD or to a plant-based vegan diet but it isn't exactly a true keto diet by a long shot; the ketogenic diets I've seen have anywhere from 70 to 90% of their calories from fat, anywhere from 5 to 30% as protein, and as little carbohydrate as humanly possible (maybe 0 to 6% ).
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:19 am

D1984 wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:28 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:59 pm
The Inuit and Aleut are probably the only ones that ate what we mean by a keto diet. The Mongols and Maasai (include the Scythians here) were pastoralists, so they also drank milk and blood (and booze!), and ate whatever fruit was around and shit like that. It appears that small amounts of carbs + alcohol increases your ability to be a blood-crazed psychopathic warrior.
The Inuit and Aleut thing is actually kind of questionable for three reasons:

One, apparently most native Artic peoples (including Inuit and Alaska First Nations) have a genetically caused mild CPT-1a deficiency that makes it more difficult for them to get energy from breaking down fats, harder to produce ketones, and thus less likely to get into true ketosis to begin with even on a high fat, moderate protein, very-low carb diet.
Getting "into ketosis" isn't the same as "eating what we mean by a keto diet." Although maybe I was assuming we all were talking about the modern weight control version, not the epileptic control version (where the ratios matter). I meant they're eating pretty much only meat. It's pretty wild that they survived in their environment with a genetic deficiency that makes it harder for them to live on the main foods they have available though.
Two, how much of their calories came as protein vs how much as fat? Even on a true carnivore diet (all meat, no plants whatsoever) if you eat enough protein relative to fat your body has the ability to convert at least some of the protein you've eaten to glucose for energy via hepatic gluconeogenesis. IIRC the average adult male human adapted to a high-protein-to-fat-ratio carnivore diet can convert up to around 1150-1200 calories of protein to carbohydrate if need be.
In the early stages of fasting or a low-carb diet, when glucose needs are high, you'll convert muscle to glucose. One should eat enough dietary protein to maintain muscle mass. Once you're fat adapted and you're using mostly ketones and FFAs the need for gluconeogenesis goes down (in addition, the amount of ketones used decreases everywhere except the brain*). The amount of protein you eat relative to fat doesn't matter AFAIK, as long as you aren't already too lean. If you eat a lot of protein in absolute terms, then oxidation goes up (but protein also has a higher thermic effect).

Cool info about the arctic people's diets having more carbs in them. It looks like there were periods where they were eating near-zero levels of carbs, and other times when they were eating some. That seems like a pretty common pattern. So! They had the low carb levels, if only they had more natural resources (grass and horses, mostly) they might have achieved the level of insanity of the Scythians and Mongols.


* "By the third day of ketosis, all of the non-protein fuel is derived from the oxidation of FFA
and ketones (12,13). As ketosis develops, most tissues which can use ketones for fuel will stop
using them to a significant degree by the third week (7,9). This decrease in ketone utilization
occurs due to a down regulation of the enzymes responsible for ketone use and occurs in all
tissues except the brain (7). After three weeks, most tissues will meet their energy requirements
almost exclusively through the breakdown of FFA (9). This is thought to be an adaptation to
ensure adequate ketone levels for the brain." - The Ketogenic Diet by McDonald.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by WiseOne » Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:11 am

Pre-agricultural humans.

There's a good amount of archeological evidence about the human diet prior to the introduction of agriculture and settlements, supplemented by modern studies of hunter-gatherer diets and health status. In short, hunter-gatherers and pre-agricultural humans were far healthier than either modern humans or humans after the introduction of agriculture. Taller, better teeth, denser bones. And, their diet was primarily from animals. The amount of carbohydrates varies but it's generally much lower than the USDA recommendation - and it's not seed flours, it's mainly from high fiber tubers.

It's pretty well documented that human health worsened once they switched from hunter-gatherer to settlements with agriculture. Shorter stature, bad teeth etc. Egyptians for example subsisted on mostly bread, and analyses of mummies show extensive heart disease and generally poor health. There was also a most interesting study comparing two Native American populations living in Kentucky - one was hunter-gatherer subsisting mostly on meat and nuts/berries when available, the other agricultural and eating a lot of corn and squash. Guess which one was healthier.

I find the logic of the Paleo diet philosophy to be compelling: the diet that humans spent millions of years eating before the introduction of agriculture is bound to be healthier for us. And most definitely healthier than the USDA's vision of the ideal diet (based on seed flours and oils instead of animal products) that was introduced a mere 50 years ago. It also makes sense given what our taste buds tell us. We like meat. We like salt (seafood, stuff with blood in it). We like fat. We like spicy, which you get from herbs and greens. We like tubers and fruit (sweet flavors) - but fruit has limited availability and could not have been a large portion of the diet. Given that, why would humans have evolved to prefer foods that are bad for us? That's not the case with any other animal. Doesn't pass the sniff test.

This doesn't steer you toward keto, but it does get you partway there (less carbs, more fat). I think of keto as a dietary "boot camp" that is meant to fix years of damage from a poor diet. Let's be thankful it is so easy to fix for most of us. For some people, the damage is so extensive that their intolerance of carbohydrates may be permanent. That's my theory anyway.
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by jalanlong » Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:23 pm

I have read and listened to a lot of things about Keto and Carnivore diets over the past few years and I am certainly persuaded. But one thing that is never answered in them is why so many other countries eat foods rich in carbs, seed oils etc. but do not begin to have the heart disease or obesity issues that the US has. A simple answer might be that they eat "better" carbs than us or eat smaller portions but if that is the case then carbs are not necessarily the enemy. I have an Italian friend and you would not believe what she and her friends eat for breakfast. Pastries, fruit, cream cheese; the exact type of stuff we are told not to eat because it starts you off every day with high blood sugar that will inevitably crash and make you crave more carbs. But yet they have health and physiques that most Americans would kill for.
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by WiseOne » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:08 am

jalanlong wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:23 pm
Pastries, fruit, cream cheese; the exact type of stuff we are told not to eat because it starts you off every day with high blood sugar that will inevitably crash and make you crave more carbs.
Last I checked, cream cheese is not high in carbohydrates.

More to the point though....where did you get the idea that Italian citizens aren't obese? The obesity rates there are increasing like they are everywhere else where the USDA diet message has penetrated. It just took a little longer to start happening, but they'll catch up given a bit more time. The UK for example already has.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by D1984 » Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:00 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:08 am
jalanlong wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:23 pm
Pastries, fruit, cream cheese; the exact type of stuff we are told not to eat because it starts you off every day with high blood sugar that will inevitably crash and make you crave more carbs.
Last I checked, cream cheese is not high in carbohydrates.

More to the point though....where did you get the idea that Italian citizens aren't obese? The obesity rates there are increasing like they are everywhere else where the USDA diet message has penetrated. It just took a little longer to start happening, but they'll catch up given a bit more time. The UK for example already has.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country
I think he was speaking more about the Italian citizens he personally knew rather than the people of Italy as a whole; people all vary in how sensitive they are to the effects of large quantities of refined sugar and/or refined carbs in general causing weight gain and metabolic disorders.

With that said, I'm not sure the traditional Italian diet in the "pre-USDA diet" era was what you might consider low-carb (and certainly not what, say, Dr. Atkins would've considered low-carb); pasta of any and all kinds, ciabatta, focaccia, Pane Toscano, pizza (and yeah, I know actual real traditional Italian or Neopolitan pizza is much lighter on cheese than the Americanized version but if carbs are what you are trying to blame for obesity then cheese shouldn't be much of a problem), gelato, cannolis, etc. Granted, it wasn't a low-fat diet of any sort either; olive oil, omega-3 rich seafood, and (surprisingly to people who view olive oil as the main fat in Italian or Mediterranean cooking) plenty of pork fat as well in the form of lard or fatty meat. And while there were indeed overweight/obese Italians then, there were a rather lower percentage of the population than they were in America at the time (and certainly than they are in America now); see https://knoema.com/atlas/Italy/Male-obesity-prevalence and https://knoema.com/atlas/Italy/Female-o ... prevalence and compare it to similar figures for the US from the same time frames or from today.

I am aware that Italian children are some of the fattest in the world (about as bad as American ones) even though their adult population is still slimmer than ours.....but that probably has more to do with said children being some of the world's highest consumers per capita of soda and also due to the fact that portion sizes of everything have increased in some cases to almost American sizes; see https://www.vox.com/2016/8/22/12552592/ ... esity-rate rather than it being due to too high of a consumption of bread/pasta and other actual food carbohydrates (regardless of where one leans on low-carb vs low-fat vs mixed-diet I think we can all agree on two basic idea; one, getting any decent-sized portion of your daily calories from fizzy fructose water with zero actual micronutrients whatsoever is a dumb idea; and two, increasing portion sizes is not a ticket to curing/reducing obesity).

I haven't looked at any data for the percentage of calories being consumed as fat/carbs/protein by Italians in the early to mid-1970s (which would've been the time frame right before the "USDA diet" ostensibly took off) nor the actual general breakdown of types/percentages of foods available for consumption (sugar, dairy, wheat flour, potatoes and other root vegetables/ meats, cheeses, non-starchy vegetables, alcohol, etc) but I have seen such data from France in the early 1970s; https://fireinabottle.net/the-french-diet-in-france/ gives a decent overview. Not exactly a low-carbohydrate diet; look at the amounts of flour, sugar, and potatoes (and that's not even considering, say fruit--eaten as either fresh fruit or as an ingredients in jams/jellies/tarts/pastries--or the fact that much of the alcohol consumed by the French would've been red wine so it would've had some carbs as well....as for that matte would any milk consumed) ! Needless to say, France didn't have an explosion of obesity in 1970 or 1971 so maybe carbs aren't the only or even the main culprit.
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by WiseOne » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:38 am

Desert wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:31 pm
I'm running a Keto trial for three months. The sample size is small (me), but I'll share before and after numbers in case it's interesting to any of you.

I've been skeptical about low-carb diets for some time, but I've run out of patience with the whole-food, plant-based results I'm seeing. In fairness to the approach, I often "cheat" when I get seriously hungry. But I don't think this is uncommon--it's really tough (for me, at least) to face a plate full of plants, day after day.

So I'm trying the 3-month experiment, and also studying the diet in detail. I'm reading The Case for Keto by Taubes, and I'm also finding some value in the "Diet Doctor" podcast.

Admittedly, my experience will be just another anecdote, but I'll let y'all know how it turns out.
Good luck Desert and yes, keep us posted!! When did you start?

I remember that I had to get through the initial phase of becoming fat-adapted before I started seeing many of the positive effects including the weight loss, improvement in general health and resolving of a host of minor, annoying conditions, and no longer feeling hungry between meals. It took about a month, but that can vary. Check out "2 keto dudes" podcast as well - I know they have several on the subject of becoming fat adapted, with a lot of useful tips to get you through it.
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by pp4me » Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:33 pm

Desert wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:55 pm
Thanks WiseOne!

I just started on June 19, so I'm less than 2 weeks in now. I decided to try this right after my recent blood test results so I'd have starting numbers to compare with at the end.

I'm hoping to:
- Reduce body weight (fat, preferably)
- Reduce blood pressure (it's not super high, but I'd like to bring it down a bit)
- Reduce cholesterol levels

I also discovered that my B12 level was very low, so I got my very first B12 shot. I'm hoping to bring that number up also.

I'll check out the "2 Keto Dudes" as well, thanks!
My go to people when I started keto were Ken Berry, author of "lies my doctor told me" and Annette Bosworth M.D. The latter had an interesting suggestion of, after getting rid of all the carbs in your pantry, sit down with the most high fat meal you can make and gorge yourself until you can't eat anymore. This was based on something about high carb diets resulting in messing up the signaling mechanisms that go your brain to let you know you are full. Had something do with some hormone I can't remember the name of. WiseOne would probably know.

Also enjoyed Peter Attia who doesn't do keto anymore but conducted fat burning experiences on himself and once swam to Catalina island in a 24 hour fasted state to see how well his body was adapted to burning fat and test the idea that athletes do better on high carb diets. He made it and I think he proved his point.

Wouldn't think you'd have a problem with B12 on keto unless it's a meatless keto diet (which I think is actually possible - avocados, eggs, and mayonnaise come to mind).

As for cholesterol, mine was over 300 when I started and I haven't tested it since because I really don't care. I think the number is bullshit designed to enrich the drug pushers.
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by WiseOne » Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:55 pm

Oh yes, B12 deficiency...one of many indicators that humans and vegan diets don't mix. I remember a patient from residency who spent two years in a wheelchair before we figured out what his problem was. He was lucky to recover enough to be able to walk. That'll be one more problem you won't have to worry about anymore.

You won't have a problem with the fat loss - just need some patience as you have to fat-adapt first. And yes you'll have a very good chance of getting your blood pressure under control - if you're on meds you'll need frequent monitoring and to be in touch with the prescribing MD to taper down the dose as needed.

Cholesterol - you should read up on that. The total number may well increase, but the important indicators may improve despite that. Total cholesterol is almost worthless as a health indicator...what pp4me said, basically. Personally, I don't get my #s checked either because...what will I do about it? I sure as heck am not going to take a statin, and my diet is already optimized. I have a fundamental problem with treating a lab result, unless there is rock solid evidence that doing so will alter clinically relevant outcomes. There isn't any such thing in the case of cholesterol.
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Re: Want to lose weight & treatment for diabetes

Post by Mark Leavy » Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:58 pm

Desert wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:55 pm
Thanks WiseOne!

I just started on June 19, so I'm less than 2 weeks in now. I decided to try this right after my recent blood test results so I'd have starting numbers to compare with at the end.

I'm hoping to:
- Reduce body weight (fat, preferably)
- Reduce blood pressure (it's not super high, but I'd like to bring it down a bit)
- Reduce cholesterol levels

I also discovered that my B12 level was very low, so I got my very first B12 shot. I'm hoping to bring that number up also.

I'll check out the "2 Keto Dudes" as well, thanks!
Sincere Best Wishes, Desert.

Not guaranteed, but pretty good odds you’ll lose fat and lower your blood pressure. I wouldn’t bet on cholesterol going down. That’s a good thing. A thin waist and high (saturated fat) cholesterol is a recipe for testosterone. You’ll enjoy it ;)

Cheers.

Edit: I see WiseOne beat me to it. Just do what she says.
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