Why the Allies Won

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Why the Allies Won

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:56 pm

A few days ago in discussing the cause(s) of the Civil War....Xan warned us about oversimplying when it comes to history.

Also, a few days ago, I started reading this excellent book:

https://www.amazon.com/Why-the-Allies-W ... l_huc_item

Why the Allies Won

I think I am about 1/3 the way through the book and, so far, I think I've read about four solid reasons why the Allies won WW II.

There are several here who know their U.S. History (and military history).

I'd be curious of your perceptions of why the Allies won.

I'll either confirm that that is one I've read so far in the book or not yet read in the book.

At the end I'll reveal all the reasons listed in the book.

I'm trying to memorize them all..
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4392
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by Xan » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:09 pm

Surely one has to be the sheer production of the US: we were churning out tanks, planes, bombs, you name it at a tremendous pace that nobody could keep up with.

Another... Maybe radar?
User avatar
Smith1776
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3505
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:01 pm

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by Smith1776 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:12 pm

Never invade Russia in the winter. O0 O0 O0
🛞 The All-Terrain Portfolio 🛞
User avatar
Benko
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:40 am

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by Benko » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:01 pm

Goes without saying, or should, but it was war, and one needs to be willing to do terrible things (at least as terrible as your opponent) unless you wish to lose.

A lesson we've forgotten and which has relevance for our current circumstances.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:02 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:09 pm

Surely one has to be the sheer production of the US: we were churning out tanks, planes, bombs, you name it at a tremendous pace that nobody could keep up with.

Another... Maybe radar?


Somewhat radar in that I'm seeming to remember it being used in ending the effectiveness of the Nazi submarines sinking all the ships coming from the U.S. to England. But now I'm not also remembering if it was due to also using better defenses (ships and planes) to defend those supply convoys. But I'm thinking advanced radar was a part of it.

Regarding the U.S. production. Surprisingly I'm not remembering that as a reason. There was an inverse to that, though caused by another reason.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:03 pm

Smith1776 wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:12 pm

Never invade Russia in the winter. O0 O0 O0


Definitely not a good idea. But not one of the major reasons.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:05 pm

Benko wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:01 pm

Goes without saying, or should, but it was war, and one needs to be willing to do terrible things (at least as terrible as your opponent) unless you wish to lose.

A lesson we've forgotten and which has relevance for our current circumstances.


The U.S. did commit war atrocities. But not to the degree of Germany or Japan. However, there was / is the moral question of the use of bombs on civilians. There the Allies outdid both the Nazi's and the Japanese combined.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
Tortoise
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2751
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:35 am

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by Tortoise » Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:39 am

As I recall, cryptography had a big influence on the war’s outcome. Many of the Allies’ top mathematicians (such as Alan Turing) were laser-focused on cracking codes at secret facilities like Bletchley Park.
User avatar
Hal
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1349
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:50 am

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by Hal » Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:33 am

Because US citizens saved and funded the war with treasury bonds ::)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9xv2GJ_m_0
Aussie GoldSmithPP - 25% PMGOLD, 75% VDCO
SomeDude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 am

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by SomeDude » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:41 am

Germany and Japan ran out of oil early.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:36 am

Tortoise wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:39 am

As I recall, cryptography had a big influence on the war’s outcome. Many of the Allies’ top mathematicians (such as Alan Turing) were laser-focused on cracking codes at secret facilities like Bletchley Park.


Yes. A factor. But not one of the major factors yet cited in the book.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:36 am

Hal wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:33 am

Because US citizens saved and funded the war with treasury bonds ::)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9xv2GJ_m_0


Definitely not cited and I do not expect it to be!
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:37 am

SomeDude wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:41 am

Germany and Japan ran out of oil early.


Don't think that one will be cited.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
barrett
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1982
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:54 pm

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by barrett » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:38 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:05 pm
The U.S. did commit war atrocities. But not to the degree of Germany or Japan. However, there was / is the moral question of the use of bombs on civilians. There the Allies outdid both the Nazi's and the Japanese combined.
Isn't this almost surely attributable to the war NOT being fought here in the US? I mean, there would have been plenty of US civilian casualties if Japan & Germany were dropping bombs on our cities instead of the other way around.

Agree with Some Dude that Japan & Germany ran out of oil early on, but my understanding is that, at least in Japan's case, that was one of their justifications for attacking the US. The book The Prize has a good section on Japan & Germany both getting quite close to major oil reserves that could have turned the tide in their favor.

Vinnie, is my dad spending 19 weeks on the beaches of Anzio one of the main reasons the Allies won? O0
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:47 am

barrett wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:38 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:05 pm

The U.S. did commit war atrocities. But not to the degree of Germany or Japan. However, there was / is the moral question of the use of bombs on civilians. There the Allies outdid both the Nazi's and the Japanese combined.


Isn't this almost surely attributable to the war NOT being fought here in the US? I mean, there would have been plenty of US civilian casualties if Japan & Germany were dropping bombs on our cities instead of the other way around.

Agree with Some Dude that Japan & Germany ran out of oil early on, but my understanding is that, at least in Japan's case, that was one of their justifications for attacking the US. The book The Prize has a good section on Japan & Germany both getting quite close to major oil reserves that could have turned the tide in their favor.

Vinnie, is my dad spending 19 weeks on the beaches of Anzio one of the main reasons the Allies won? O0


1) Initially the Germans were avoiding bombing civilians in England. But once England started bombing civilians in Germany, Germany reciprocated.

2) Your father? NOT one of the main reasons. But A reason!
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
I Shrugged
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2062
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:06 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:56 pm
A few days ago in discussing the cause(s) of the Civil War....Xan warned us about oversimplying when it comes to history.

Also, a few days ago, I started reading this excellent book:

https://www.amazon.com/Why-the-Allies-W ... l_huc_item

Why the Allies Won

I think I am about 1/3 the way through the book and, so far, I think I've read about four solid reasons why the Allies won WW II.

There are several here who know their U.S. History (and military history).

I'd be curious of your perceptions of why the Allies won.

I'll either confirm that that is one I've read so far in the book or not yet read in the book.

At the end I'll reveal all the reasons listed in the book.

I'm trying to memorize them all..
With the obvious caveat that we can only do it the way the war actually unfolded....
Russia beat Germany. The US and the other allies finished them off.

Japan never had a chance, let's be real. Nor would Germany vs the US, if that had been the matchup from the start.

None of that is to say that US and other allied soldiers weren't heroic, good, etc. But the way it went, Russia destroyed the German army.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:15 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:06 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:56 pm

A few days ago in discussing the cause(s) of the Civil War....Xan warned us about oversimplying when it comes to history.

Also, a few days ago, I started reading this excellent book:

https://www.amazon.com/Why-the-Allies-W ... l_huc_item

Why the Allies Won

I think I am about 1/3 the way through the book and, so far, I think I've read about four solid reasons why the Allies won WW II.

There are several here who know their U.S. History (and military history).

I'd be curious of your perceptions of why the Allies won.

I'll either confirm that that is one I've read so far in the book or not yet read in the book.

At the end I'll reveal all the reasons listed in the book.

I'm trying to memorize them all..


With the obvious caveat that we can only do it the way the war actually unfolded....
Russia beat Germany. The US and the other allies finished them off.

Japan never had a chance, let's be real. Nor would Germany vs the US, if that had been the matchup from the start.

None of that is to say that US and other allied soldiers weren't heroic, good, etc. But the way it went, Russia destroyed the German army.


All you say is true. But it leaves out many other key reasons.

IF D-Day had failed or was not able to happen....things may have turned out differently.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
I Shrugged
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2062
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:25 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:15 am
I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:06 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:56 pm
A few days ago in discussing the cause(s) of the Civil War....Xan warned us about oversimplying when it comes to history.

Also, a few days ago, I started reading this excellent book:

https://www.amazon.com/Why-the-Allies-W ... l_huc_item

Why the Allies Won

I think I am about 1/3 the way through the book and, so far, I think I've read about four solid reasons why the Allies won WW II.

There are several here who know their U.S. History (and military history).

I'd be curious of your perceptions of why the Allies won.

I'll either confirm that that is one I've read so far in the book or not yet read in the book.

At the end I'll reveal all the reasons listed in the book.

I'm trying to memorize them all..
With the obvious caveat that we can only do it the way the war actually unfolded....
Russia beat Germany. The US and the other allies finished them off.

Japan never had a chance, let's be real. Nor would Germany vs the US, if that had been the matchup from the start.

None of that is to say that US and other allied soldiers weren't heroic, good, etc. But the way it went, Russia destroyed the German army.
All you say is true. But it leaves out many other key reasons.

IF D-Day had failed or was not able to happen....things may have turned out differently.
Sure, but that's true for hundreds of things. What if any of the coups against Hitler had been successful? Etc. Lots of things were key to it happening the way it did. Would D Day have been successful, or even attempted, if Germany never attacked Russia, and we had to face the full undiminished German military on their turf?
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:24 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:25 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:15 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:06 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:56 pm

A few days ago in discussing the cause(s) of the Civil War....Xan warned us about oversimplying when it comes to history.

Also, a few days ago, I started reading this excellent book:

https://www.amazon.com/Why-the-Allies-W ... l_huc_item

Why the Allies Won

I think I am about 1/3 the way through the book and, so far, I think I've read about four solid reasons why the Allies won WW II.

There are several here who know their U.S. History (and military history).

I'd be curious of your perceptions of why the Allies won.

I'll either confirm that that is one I've read so far in the book or not yet read in the book.

At the end I'll reveal all the reasons listed in the book.

I'm trying to memorize them all..


With the obvious caveat that we can only do it the way the war actually unfolded....
Russia beat Germany. The US and the other allies finished them off.

Japan never had a chance, let's be real. Nor would Germany vs the US, if that had been the matchup from the start.

None of that is to say that US and other allied soldiers weren't heroic, good, etc. But the way it went, Russia destroyed the German army.


All you say is true. But it leaves out many other key reasons.

IF D-Day had failed or was not able to happen....things may have turned out differently.


Sure, but that's true for hundreds of things. What if any of the coups against Hitler had been successful? Etc. Lots of things were key to it happening the way it did. Would D Day have been successful, or even attempted, if Germany never attacked Russia, and we had to face the full undiminished German military on their turf?


I will assume that you were intentionally engaging in hyperbole when you stated "hundreds".

The book is aimed at people like you who believe that Allied victory was destiny, a foregone conclusion.

As I'm reading it is revealing to me the key things that did lead to Allied victory.

I'll not hold you to "hundreds" but give me a list of ten things that were equivalent to D-Day.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
dockinGA
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 245
Joined: Tue May 04, 2021 9:29 am

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by dockinGA » Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:42 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:06 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:56 pm
A few days ago in discussing the cause(s) of the Civil War....Xan warned us about oversimplying when it comes to history.

Also, a few days ago, I started reading this excellent book:

https://www.amazon.com/Why-the-Allies-W ... l_huc_item

Why the Allies Won

I think I am about 1/3 the way through the book and, so far, I think I've read about four solid reasons why the Allies won WW II.

There are several here who know their U.S. History (and military history).

I'd be curious of your perceptions of why the Allies won.

I'll either confirm that that is one I've read so far in the book or not yet read in the book.

At the end I'll reveal all the reasons listed in the book.

I'm trying to memorize them all..
With the obvious caveat that we can only do it the way the war actually unfolded....
Russia beat Germany. The US and the other allies finished them off.

Japan never had a chance, let's be real. Nor would Germany vs the US, if that had been the matchup from the start.

None of that is to say that US and other allied soldiers weren't heroic, good, etc. But the way it went, Russia destroyed the German army.
Along these lines, one could argue that Hitler won the war for the Allies. His attack on USSR, intentionally creating yet another 2 front war for Germany, seems like it had to be doomed from the start. He was always teetering on the edge of strategic genius and insanity it seems, and finally bit off way more than he could chew.

I've come to the realization through the years that what we've been taught (or more accurately how we've viewed WW2, through a US-centric/western Allies lens) tells way less than half the story. Much like in a game of Axis & Allies, the all-out assault/struggle on the Eastern Front was the crux of the war. Events like D-Day mattered little beyond their ability to help Russia on the Eastern Front, and even D-Day came relatively late in the proceedings. Just the threat of an invasion, and the massive firepower/production the US was able to bring to the table, was probably more important.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:07 pm

dockinGA wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:42 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:06 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:56 pm

A few days ago in discussing the cause(s) of the Civil War....Xan warned us about oversimplying when it comes to history.

Also, a few days ago, I started reading this excellent book:

https://www.amazon.com/Why-the-Allies-W ... l_huc_item

Why the Allies Won

I think I am about 1/3 the way through the book and, so far, I think I've read about four solid reasons why the Allies won WW II.

There are several here who know their U.S. History (and military history).

I'd be curious of your perceptions of why the Allies won.

I'll either confirm that that is one I've read so far in the book or not yet read in the book.

At the end I'll reveal all the reasons listed in the book.

I'm trying to memorize them all..


With the obvious caveat that we can only do it the way the war actually unfolded....
Russia beat Germany. The US and the other allies finished them off.

Japan never had a chance, let's be real. Nor would Germany vs the US, if that had been the matchup from the start.

None of that is to say that US and other allied soldiers weren't heroic, good, etc. But the way it went, Russia destroyed the German army.


Along these lines, one could argue that Hitler won the war for the Allies. His attack on USSR, intentionally creating yet another 2 front war for Germany, seems like it had to be doomed from the start. He was always teetering on the edge of strategic genius and insanity it seems, and finally bit off way more than he could chew.

I've come to the realization through the years that what we've been taught (or more accurately how we've viewed WW2, through a US-centric/western Allies lens) tells way less than half the story. Much like in a game of Axis & Allies, the all-out assault/struggle on the Eastern Front was the crux of the war. Events like D-Day mattered little beyond their ability to help Russia on the Eastern Front, and even D-Day came relatively late in the proceedings. Just the threat of an invasion, and the massive firepower/production the US was able to bring to the table, was probably more important.


All of what you say is true. However, Hitler did come close to defeating the USSR.

D-Day came so late because the Allies were just not ready to do it prior to then. And, again, there was only a tiny window (a few days) for it to take place and it could have failed. If the Germans has known where D-Day was taking place they could have made it vastly more difficult for the Allies. It was amazing that with so many people being involved for six months of planning that the Germans never found out.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
I Shrugged
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2062
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:59 pm

Vinny, I wasn't trying to equate anything to D-Day, but rather was saying there were any number of key moments, actions, battles, developments, and decisions that affected the outcome of the war. I'm not going to try to compile a list. You are a more literal person than I am. And that's saying something! :) :) :)

Yes, D-Day was decisive. It especially marked the last turning point.
The Russian war turning point might have been as early as late 1941, when German advance patrols got within sight of Moscow. Then winter hit, and the Germans momentum was reversed. It took a couple of years of fighting, and the tables turned decisively in 1943. By then the Germans had lost North Africa too.
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:04 pm

1. Because the resolve of the British/ANZAC/US citizens was greater than that of German citizens - the willingness to suffer for a greater good than self.

2. U-234 was too late to the party. ;) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234

3. That’s the way God wanted the outcome to be.

4. Because my father and uncles served in WWII.

5. Because women didn’t serve in combat roles.

6. It’s an ENIGMA.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
SomeDude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 am

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by SomeDude » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:11 pm

From years of playing Axis & Allies I've learned that Japan should have struck the Soviet Union instead of pearl harbor.

If Germany could have just captured Moscow and held for one turn it could have used the Russian IPCs to create about 20 infantry and held fortress Europe easily.

Then japan would sweep though china and india and the axis would have 87 ipc and and economic victory.

Honestly....a concerted effort to defeat the Soviets before the US and UK landed would have been the only hope. Japan could have gotten oil from Germany then to conquer China.

June 22 will mark 80 years since operation barbarosa was launched.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Why the Allies Won

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:48 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:04 pm

1. Because the resolve of the British/ANZAC/US citizens was greater than that of German citizens - the willingness to suffer for a greater good than self.

2. U-234 was too late to the party. ;) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234

3. That’s the way God wanted the outcome to be.

4. Because my father and uncles served in WWII.

5. Because women didn’t serve in combat roles.

6. It’s an ENIGMA.


Wrong on that one...

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world- ... ipers.html
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Post Reply