Imagine what would happen to the judge that overturns it. Most hated villain in America, responsible for riots and death. Career over, very dangerous.
The mob rules now.
I'd give it 1% chance.
Moderator: Global Moderator
Imagine what would happen to the judge that overturns it. Most hated villain in America, responsible for riots and death. Career over, very dangerous.
Well the immediate resolution is that today Chauvin is a convicted murderer in county jail awaiting sentencing and yesterday he wasn't. In the event his attorneys appeal, he will be presenting to the appeals court as a convicted murder seeking to undo his conviction, definitely not the same place he was in yesterday.
Moda, have you had some kind of personal negative experience with the police? On this particular issue you seem to have an absolutist bent which you don't seem to have on anything else.moda0306 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:37 pm Just 4 other cops have been convicted of Murder for on-duty Killings since 2004. 3 of them have been overturned.
https://www.bgsu.edu/content/dam/BGSU/h ... ughter.pdf
Watching conservatives hand-wring over this is rich.
ACAB.
While "the mob" can certainly interfere with justice, and just might have in this case, so does the bureaucracy of the police state. We've never had the rule of law. It's always been a myth. Now we are just seeing it laid out in front of us on video-tape. In absence of the rule of law, the population has every right to take to the streets, do they not? Tree of liberty and all that?SomeDude wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:49 pmImagine what would happen to the judge that overturns it. Most hated villain in America, responsible for riots and death. Career over, very dangerous.
The mob rules now.
I'd give it 1% chance.
Xan wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:59 pmModa, have you had some kind of personal negative experience with the police? On this particular issue you seem to have an absolutist bent which you don't seem to have on anything else.moda0306 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:37 pm Just 4 other cops have been convicted of Murder for on-duty Killings since 2004. 3 of them have been overturned.
https://www.bgsu.edu/content/dam/BGSU/h ... ughter.pdf
Watching conservatives hand-wring over this is rich.
ACAB.
I would hazard that saying that ALL of any group are "bastards" (which I take to be your meaning?) is likely not productive, helpful to one's cause, or factually correct.
Also, isn't that language demeaning to people of non-traditional parentage?
If 99% of the time the shoe is on the other foot, and the 1% it's on this foot RARELY gets convictions because the prosecutor won't try (I'd point you to the paltry number of convictions of cops over the last couple decades if you disagree with this assertion), then why are you talking about the political left that's the problem, when it's obvious that the vast, vast majority of the time this criminal-justice corruption is going the other way?Maddy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:31 pm Well 99 percent of the time, the shoe is on the other foot--i.e., it's the young black men in poverty-stricken neighborhoods who suffer the injustice of a system that has declared them guilty before they ever set foot in a courtroom. So procedural integrity is an issue that should be of vital concern to those who claim to care about racial and class-based injustice.
And for a time, it was. That is, until the political left wing decided to respond to institutional corruption by becoming just as corrupt. Turns out they didn't care as much about corruption as getting a seat at the table.
And I disagree with Moda's assessment that the rule of law has never meant anything. Did it work for everybody? Of course not. But it was an ideal to which jurists for the most part aspired, and the nearly constant parsing of the law when it came to matters of criminal procedure reflected that concern. Something happened in the early '90s, when I personally witnessed the system breaking down on nearly all fronts. Attorneys who had no conscience about fabricating evidence, judges acting like cowboys, appeals courts simply making up law to suit their policy preferences. For someone who worked in the system day in and day out, the change was quite noticeable.
Would you generally describe the process by which police are arrested, charged and tried for crimes to be above board and not corrupt? Obviously this would differ case by case and jurisdiction by jurisdiction, but I'm talking generally, in most cases... I didn't expect push-back on this, as even my more conservative & cop-apologist friends don't tend to dispute this one. They just consider it a worthwhile part of the system that it protects itself from prosecution, because "their jobs are unbelievably hard." (Obviously simplifying and paraphrasing)
The idea of throwing anyone under the bus to "even the score," for for any other political purpose, is abhorrent to me. You can talk all day long about inequities in the justice system, and none of it is the least bit relevant to the question whether this individual was unjustly tried and convicted.moda0306 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:01 pm If that's 99% of the cases, and Chauvin is the 1%, why is the left throwing this cop under the bus the only one worth shining a light on? How in god's name is this just one more issue of "the left being out of control," when they're only just now getting their hands on the wheel here. Sounds like this is a story of, at best, "a corrupt system normally used to arrest and convict young black men is being used by the left, this one time, to convict a cop of murder, using many of the same corrupt tactics."
So it’s abhorrent when “the left” does it 1% of the time, but not even worth mentioning when it happens the other 99% of the time? Why all the special outrage now and and not the other 99% of the time? Like I said it sounds like at worst, you’re asserting that the left is simply lowering to the tactics of a formerly centrist/conservative criminal justice system, and you’re some how newly angry about it...Maddy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:25 amThe idea of throwing anyone under the bus to "even the score," for for any other political purpose, is abhorrent to me. You can talk all day long about inequities in the justice system, and none of it is the least bit relevant to the question whether this individual was unjustly tried and convicted.moda0306 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:01 pm If that's 99% of the cases, and Chauvin is the 1%, why is the left throwing this cop under the bus the only one worth shining a light on? How in god's name is this just one more issue of "the left being out of control," when they're only just now getting their hands on the wheel here. Sounds like this is a story of, at best, "a corrupt system normally used to arrest and convict young black men is being used by the left, this one time, to convict a cop of murder, using many of the same corrupt tactics."
I saw it, but to have any educated opinion on the subject would require a fair bit of research and a familiarity with the facts of individual cases, which is something I don't have. You can't just throw out statistics and start making assumptions based upon the wrong-headed idea that in a truly just world police officers, judges, suburban housewives and street thugs would all be arrested and convicted in equal numbers.moda0306 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:54 amAlso you did you see my question about the procedures around arresting, charging and trying cops?Maddy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:25 amThe idea of throwing anyone under the bus to "even the score," for for any other political purpose, is abhorrent to me. You can talk all day long about inequities in the justice system, and none of it is the least bit relevant to the question whether this individual was unjustly tried and convicted.moda0306 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:01 pm If that's 99% of the cases, and Chauvin is the 1%, why is the left throwing this cop under the bus the only one worth shining a light on? How in god's name is this just one more issue of "the left being out of control," when they're only just now getting their hands on the wheel here. Sounds like this is a story of, at best, "a corrupt system normally used to arrest and convict young black men is being used by the left, this one time, to convict a cop of murder, using many of the same corrupt tactics."
Maddy I’m surprised that your confident enough in your knowledge of the system to make such a damning indictment about how it treats young black men, but have next to no opinion on how police are handled internally by the same system. It’s a massive part of the corruption of the system itself. That said, it’s only a part of the overall point I was making.Maddy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:06 amI saw it, but to have any educated opinion on the subject would require a fair bit of research and a familiarity with the facts of individual cases, which is something I don't have. You can't just throw out statistics and start making assumptions based upon the wrong-headed idea that in a truly just world police officers, judges, suburban housewives and street thugs would all be arrested and convicted in equal numbers.moda0306 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:54 amAlso you did you see my question about the procedures around arresting, charging and trying cops?Maddy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:25 amThe idea of throwing anyone under the bus to "even the score," for for any other political purpose, is abhorrent to me. You can talk all day long about inequities in the justice system, and none of it is the least bit relevant to the question whether this individual was unjustly tried and convicted.moda0306 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:01 pm If that's 99% of the cases, and Chauvin is the 1%, why is the left throwing this cop under the bus the only one worth shining a light on? How in god's name is this just one more issue of "the left being out of control," when they're only just now getting their hands on the wheel here. Sounds like this is a story of, at best, "a corrupt system normally used to arrest and convict young black men is being used by the left, this one time, to convict a cop of murder, using many of the same corrupt tactics."
Moda, I've noticed a pattern in your posts. You seem to abhor principle. In fact, you regularly mock it. Your answer to corruption on one end of the political spectrum is to ferret out and shine the light on corruption on the other end of the spectrum. For you it's all about evening the political score, as opposed to making the system more principled and holding people (whether they're cops, judges, legislators, or street thugs) personally accountable.
Well, you're in plenty of good company. Seems, from this morning's news, that yesterday's conviction isn't enough for the lynch mob.
Support for Families Reacting to Chauvin Verdict
Dear XXXXXX School Community,
We hope the outcome of the Derek Chauvin trial will begin to bring healing to our community and address the many factors that we know adversely affect families of color. While justice prevailed in this case, the racial trauma and repeated exposure to stories of violence and inequalities is still an on-going concern.
We cannot address problems that we refuse to see, and we pledge to do better for all our students. The deaths of Ahmaud Arbery, Tamir Rice, Breonna Taylor and recently, Daunte Wright, are a critical reminder of policies and practices which have negatively shaped the experiences of our black and brown children and that we have more work to do to create and sustain a just and equitable society and school system.
We also understand the pain that many of our students and teachers feel when discussing the inequities in the current judicial system. We have heard from parents who have described the task of preparing their children for the two Americas. The racial division that we see today is not a new phenomenon; it is centuries-old, embedded in the fabric of our country. Dr. King articulated the impact of racism when he noted, “But tragically and unfortunately, there is another America.” And so today, we affirm the following:
- Black Lives Matter.
- We stand united with our students of color and allies in the fight against injustice, racism and discrimination.
- It is our responsibility as a school community to uplift our core values of awareness, advocacy, social justice and empathy.
- We are not powerless to change; we are committed to moving beyond good intentions to measurable and impactful results.
- Racial justice initiatives are for the common good of all children.
- We will continue to engage stakeholders in conversations, even when it is uncomfortable. All XXXXXX students benefit from an anti-racism education.
- We commit to turning the mirror inward and advancing an anti-racist and equity-based learning community.
Students are encouraged to reach out to their building equity coaches, counselors, teachers and administrators to help in processing the news about the Chauvin trial. Attached are tips to keep in mind when discussing this event with your family. More information and resources are also available on the XXXXXX Equity Page.
No. They should stay out of lamenting on court verdicts.flyingpylon wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:40 am Our local school district sent the following email 10 minutes after the Chauvin verdict was announced. Does this seem appropriate?
Support for Families Reacting to Chauvin Verdict
Dear XXXXXX School Community,
We hope the outcome of the Derek Chauvin trial will begin to bring healing to our community and address the many factors that we know adversely affect families of color. While justice prevailed in this case, the racial trauma and repeated exposure to stories of violence and inequalities is still an on-going concern.
We cannot address problems that we refuse to see, and we pledge to do better for all our students. The deaths of Ahmaud Arbery, Tamir Rice, Breonna Taylor and recently, Daunte Wright, are a critical reminder of policies and practices which have negatively shaped the experiences of our black and brown children and that we have more work to do to create and sustain a just and equitable society and school system.
We also understand the pain that many of our students and teachers feel when discussing the inequities in the current judicial system. We have heard from parents who have described the task of preparing their children for the two Americas. The racial division that we see today is not a new phenomenon; it is centuries-old, embedded in the fabric of our country. Dr. King articulated the impact of racism when he noted, “But tragically and unfortunately, there is another America.” And so today, we affirm the following:
- Black Lives Matter.
- We stand united with our students of color and allies in the fight against injustice, racism and discrimination.
- It is our responsibility as a school community to uplift our core values of awareness, advocacy, social justice and empathy.
- We are not powerless to change; we are committed to moving beyond good intentions to measurable and impactful results.
- Racial justice initiatives are for the common good of all children.
- We will continue to engage stakeholders in conversations, even when it is uncomfortable. All XXXXXX students benefit from an anti-racism education.
- We commit to turning the mirror inward and advancing an anti-racist and equity-based learning community.
Students are encouraged to reach out to their building equity coaches, counselors, teachers and administrators to help in processing the news about the Chauvin trial. Attached are tips to keep in mind when discussing this event with your family. More information and resources are also available on the XXXXXX Equity Page.
Remember, I used to be on "the left." A good part of my early work in law was in the state appeals court system, where I worked on issues predominately having to do with civil liberties. That was before "the left" went down the dark road and abandoned those values nearly entirely.
You've asserted that 99% of the time there's an inequity in our justice system, it's towards young black men. Even if the left's policies are to blame for the conditions that lead to stereotypes, you're making an absolutely damning assertion about our justice system itself, which is largely made up of centrists and conservatives... people you never decry as part of the problem. Now you say the left has gotten a hold of the justice system, this 1% of the time, and you seem extremely, devastatingly concerned about the future of the system. It just seems totally imbalanced.Maddy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:30 amRemember, I used to be on "the left." A good part of my early work in law was in the state appeals court system, where I worked on issues predominately having to do with civil liberties. That was before "the left" went down the dark road and abandoned those values nearly entirely.
As for your assessment that "99% of the time" the procedural tactics used to unjustly convict are "used by centrists and conservatives," I see no evidence of that being the case. The Left has its own unique way of systematically oppressing minorities and other disenfranchised classes, which is to feed the very conditions that cause them to be generationally condemned to their status as members of an impoverished and uneducated underclass, and to reinforce stereotypes that assume they can never be anything but welfare cases and career criminals--all for the purpose of creating a voting block who responds in pavlovian fashion to the next promise of a constant stream of table scraps.
When the dems actually adopt policies that promote lawful, productive activity on the part of minority communities--instead of feeding dependency, lawlessness and strife--wake me up.
The last time I was called for jury duty it was an arrest for marijuana possession discovered during a traffic stop for an expected DWI. The defendant was black and the racial implications were more than obvious. The defense was going to claim there was no reason for the defendant to be stopped other than his race. She even said she would be offering video evidence of the arrest to show that the driver was calm and not impaired and even asked the potential jurors outright if the video showed that, would they find her client not guilty?Tortoise wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:51 pmDitto. I would have never agreed to be on that particular jury in the first place. During the jury selection process, I would have purposefully said something virtually guaranteed to get me eliminated.
Come to think of it, just answering the attorneys' questions honestly probably would have gotten me eliminated from that jury.
There are police shootings in those places, typically of young hot-headed white men with guns. They just never get blown up by the national media into nonstop news coverage.WiseOne wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:38 am What Maddy said!
Almost everything that the Democratic/liberal establishment claims to do for racial minorities contains in it an assumption that they need help to survive in our society, and are congenitally unable - by virtue of their race - to do so on their own.
How on earth can you not call that "racist"?
Also, have you noticed how nearly all these examples of police brutality are occurring in very liberal cities? I find that most interesting. Let me know the next time there's a police shooting in Cheyenne, Boise, Fargo, or Omaha, just in case I missed them.
I totally agree with this. Voices discussing this as a default police power issue, rather than a race issue, aren’t being elevated.glennds wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:59 am Certainly race is and continues to be the central theme of the Chauvin trial. But if you're willing to look beyond race, there is an issue at play that is quintessentially Libertarian IMO, that issue being limitations on police powers regardless of race.
Try conducting a thought experiment and pretend for a moment that GF was white, or that Chauvin was black, thus eliminating the race difference and the associated politics from the equation. Temporarily ignore the media and the politicians. In doing so we're left with a situation where the question is simply whether a reasonable person would deem the police use of force exerted on a citizen acceptable, in the context of constitutionally guaranteed protections.
One place where I'm sure we agree that the Bill of Rights has more than a passing concern with limitation on the scope of police power. Could yesterday's verdict be as much about civil liberty and the limits of police power as much as it had to do with race and race-centric civil rights? Does thinking about it in terms of the former instead of the latter affect your view? And does the issue now move from the Left to the Right (or at least somewhere other than Left) in your mind?