Chauvin Verdict

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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:38 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:20 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:42 pm
Personally, I am convinced that blacks get profiled and looked upon with suspicion more than whites in a similar situation.
I wasn't debating the statistics, simply pointing out the propensity of some people to grossly under or over estimate them (and that can go both ways depending on the topic). What we often refer to as "facts" are actually data+interpretation+persuasion.
Got it.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Tortoise » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:03 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:07 pm
Imagine if you see a black person using a handtruck to take items from your neighbors house. You did not know your neighbor was scheduled to move, and to your knowledge your neighbor is on vacation.

Would you call the police? I wouldn't. When the police arrive and confront the black person [...]

[...] 0.01% chance I get threatened by thousands on the internet, lose my job, or the 0.0001% chance I am in the national spotlight.
Good point, but another way of looking at it is that if nobody calls the police on that guy, then maybe he'll return next week or next month to burglarize your house.

And I suspect the probability of that happening would be much higher than the probability of the internet infamy / job loss if you call the cops and he turns out not to be a burglar.
glennds wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:27 pm
The test for the top charge in the case was "substantial causal factor" based on MN law. So the reasonable doubt standard in this case basically means whether there is reasonable doubt as to whether Chauvin's actions were a substantial causal factor. They don't have to be the sole factor. They don't even have to be the dominant factor. Just a substantial (or material) causal factor.
In turn, the question then becomes whether a reasonable juror could conclude that George Floyd would have died at that particular moment anyway, without Chauvin doing what he did. From the verdict, the jury was not able to make that conclusion.

[...] the testimony during the trial from the expert toxicology witness (I think his name was Isenfeld) and the Hennepin County Medical Examiner was that the Fentanyl levels were not fatal nor the cause of his death. The toxicologist presented data from over 2000 Fentanyl containing blood samples from DUI cases and GF was in the lower end of this spectrum. There was also something technical to do with the amount of the Fentanyl that could be shown to have already broken down, metabolized in his body which supported the non-fatal conclusion. You can easily find this testimony and graphic for yourself if you look.
I see, thanks for the fact-check and the insight.

On a podcast, I heard that one of the witnesses testified that Floyd started saying "I can't breathe" while he was still sitting in the back of the police squad car, even before he was placed face-down on the ground. Is that consistent with what you've heard? (I generally haven't had time to research every detail of the case very closely. I just listen to podcasts while I'm exercising and doing household chores.)

If that's true, then doesn't that seem to suggest that even if Floyd had a very high tolerance to fentanyl and other drugs, he had enough drugs in his system to affect his ability to breathe normally even before Chauvin laid a finger on him?

If, as you say, the legal test was "substantial causal factor", then maybe it's a moot point. It just seems like Floyd must have had a lot of drugs in his system (even for his level of tolerance) if he was complaining about having trouble breathing while he was still sitting in the squad car.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:07 pm

Man we are splitting hairs here!

This is like the Meaning of Life, where the fat guy was going to make it home alive until he was offered a wafer thin mint. Did John Cleese kill him? O0
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by glennds » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:11 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:03 pm


On a podcast, I heard that one of the witnesses testified that Floyd started saying "I can't breathe" while he was still sitting in the back of the police squad car, even before he was placed face-down on the ground. Is that consistent with what you've heard? (I generally haven't had time to research every detail of the case very closely. I just listen to podcasts while I'm exercising and doing household chores.)

If that's true, then doesn't that seem to suggest that even if Floyd had a very high tolerance to fentanyl and other drugs, he had enough drugs in his system to affect his ability to breathe normally even before Chauvin laid a finger on him?

If, as you say, the legal test was "substantial causal factor", then maybe it's a moot point. It just seems like Floyd must have had a lot of drugs in his system (even for his level of tolerance) if he was complaining about having trouble breathing while he was still sitting in the squad car.
I think you heard correctly in the podcast. There was a lot of bodycam video from the other officers shown at trial and some of that footage clearly shows Floyd crying out that he couldn't breathe. And this is at the stage where they were still struggling to get him in the vehicle and he was resisting, well before he is on the ground outside the vehicle with the officers on top of him.
I'm sure this is what the podcast was talking about.

As to why he couldn't breathe at that stage, I couldn't say. Maybe it was his panic, maybe it was the drugs in his system, maybe it was his alleged claustrophobia, maybe it was his underlying health issues, maybe all of the above. Maybe the claim that he couldn't breathe was a bluff at that stage, and no longer a bluff when Chauvin got to him.

This is why I say if it was another State where substantial causal factor was not the test, it would have been more complicated. For example, what if the test was primary causal factor. Now the jury would have to catalog the various contributing causes and agree on some type of hierarchy, where Chauvin's action was the primary factor, and beyond a reasonable doubt at that. Much much harder to do.

All this is not to suggest what Chauvin did was acceptable. Personally I think it was an egregious and reprehensible abuse of police power. I'm just saying convicting someone (anyone) of murder or manslaughter beyond a reasonable doubt is a serious technical thing, highly dependent on the facts AND the laws of the venue.
Last edited by glennds on Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Tortoise » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:45 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:07 pm
Man we are splitting hairs here!
Splitting hairs?

Have you ever served on a jury, Corto? Listening to hours of detailed evidence and witness testimony, then considering and discussing it for hours before rendering a verdict, is pretty much what jurors are expected to do.

In criminal trials, people's lives and freedom hang in the balance. That demands careful consideration of facts and details. The judge doesn't typically instruct the jurors, "Let's not split hairs here, people. Just go with your gut on this one. It's a no-brainer!"
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:18 am

Has this turned into ein Katzenkrieg? What say you, Kriegsspiel? ;D
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by GT » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:32 am

moda0306 wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:56 pm
WiseOne wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:07 am
I wonder what police force members think of the conviction.

It's possible that a martyr has just been created. A "there but for the grace of God go I" situation.

There's a reason why police have enjoyed relative immunity up to now. They are put into dangerous situations on a regular basis, and bad things sometimes happen as a result. Frankly we should be grateful that there are people willing to face these situations for our benefit, for not a whole lot of pay. If the message is now that another level of personal risk has just been added to the risks they've already taken on, there will come a point where no one is going to be willing to take that on.

There's a simple way for black (and non-black) people to protect themselves against being shot by police: don't tangle with police in the first place! Not committing crimes would be helpful also. But that's apparently asking a lot.
Pizza delivery, which I did for years in highschool and college, is twice as dangerous as police work at half the pay.

I don't desire to do police work, but they can go piss off with their crocodile tears. Plenty of people do far-more risky jobs for less pay, and they do so without being monumental douchebags, killing dogs, ignoring when their buddies do shady sh!t, and generally being bullies.

Police are a protection racket, and nothing more.
I would never have guessed that Pizza delivery was twice as dangerous as police work. I can see the pay being on a different scale

What makes Pizza delivery twice as dangerous?

How many Pizza delivery drivers were killed on duty last year? I could not find any data

I did find some data on law-enforcement-line-of-duty-deaths

According to CNN: 2020 was one of the deadliest years for law enforcement officers on record

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/12/us/2020- ... index.html

"A report released Monday by the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund (NLEOMF) found that 264 federal, state, military, tribal and local law enforcement officers to date died in the line of duty last year -- the highest since 1974."
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by vnatale » Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:12 am

Tortoise wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:41 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:17 pm

I still haven't heard any convincing argument that Chauvin was not guilty, regardless of the how the trial proceeded and whether it was a foregone conclusion. Is there anyone here who really thinks he was not the immediate direct cause of Floyd's death?


In a criminal trial, the burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defense.

Acquittal does not require convincing the jury that the defendant is not guilty. It requires convincing the jury that the defendant may not be guilty. Big difference.

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:17 pm

I go back to it was over 8 minutes. I believe they said Floyd said I Can't Breathe 27 times before he lost consciousness?


I hear you. I saw the video, too, and it was hard to watch. I remember that my initial thoughts were, "Why did that cop keep his knee on the guy's neck for several minutes after he stopped moving or making any noise? How can that possibly be justified as necessary? Is he sadistic or sociopathic or something?"

But then details about the incident started to trickle out in the ensuing weeks and months, and the plot thickened.

Floyd had fentanyl in his system -- supposedly a lot of it -- and fentanyl is known to be dangerous for often making people stop breathing if they take too much of it. I seem to recall one toxicology report showed that Floyd had enough fentanyl in his system to kill three men. (Fact-check?)

I also heard about a few other interesting pieces of evidence that were presented in the trial, but to me the fentanyl in Floyd's system was the one that places the biggest question mark over the question of whether Floyd would still be alive if it hadn't been for Chauvin's actions.

I have no way of gauging the probabilities involved, but if it's true that Floyd had enough fentanyl in his system to kill at least one man, I have a really hard time not acknowledging that as reasonable doubt that Chauvin murdered Floyd. And in a criminal trial, reasonable doubt means you're supposed to acquit.


All the valid questions that you raised were extremely well answered and settled by the excellent expert witnesses that the prosecution presented. They were each impressive in their knowledge and for much of their testimonies I felt like I was sitting in on quite well done biology / medical lectures which I could actually understand.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by vnatale » Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:15 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:50 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:41 pm


Floyd had fentanyl in his system -- supposedly a lot of it -- and fentanyl is known to be dangerous for often making people stop breathing if they take too much of it. I seem to recall one toxicology report showed that Floyd had enough fentanyl in his system to kill three men. (Fact-check?)

I also heard about a few other interesting pieces of evidence that were presented in the trial, but to me the fentanyl in Floyd's system was the one that places the biggest question mark over the question of whether Floyd would still be alive if it hadn't been for Chauvin's actions.

I have no way of gauging the probabilities involved, but if it's true that Floyd had enough fentanyl in his system to kill at least one man, I have a really hard time not acknowledging that as reasonable doubt that Chauvin murdered Floyd. And in a criminal trial, reasonable doubt means you're supposed to acquit.

I will give you that. But I also wonder if the guy was routinely using Fentanyl, you do build a tolerance. And was that reporting about "enough to kill three men" a purposely biased statement to talk about three average size men who never have taken it before?

From a medical site: "Yes, fentanyl can be addictive. If you use opioids a lot, you may find that you develop a tolerance and need more and more to feel the same effects. You can become mentally and physically dependent on fentanyl."

WiseOne touched on it -- it seems Floyd did put himself in the situation in the first place by committing a crime. Doesn't justify death, though.


1. You are correct on building up tolerance.

2. Floyd was a suspect in committing a crime. And, if he was guilty...he was guilty of passing a counterfeit $20 bill.

There was no focus at all in the trial on that $20 bill, like if he even knew himself that it was counterfeit or if he was assuming it was legitimate.

But it does raise the question of the police response to a $20 bill. I believe that in most cases the person just gets a ticket.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by vnatale » Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:18 am

glennds wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:27 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:41 pm


I have no way of gauging the probabilities involved, but if it's true that Floyd had enough fentanyl in his system to kill at least one man, I have a really hard time not acknowledging that as reasonable doubt that Chauvin murdered Floyd. And in a criminal trial, reasonable doubt means you're supposed to acquit.


The test for the top charge in the case was "substantial causal factor" based on MN law. So the reasonable doubt standard in this case basically means whether there is reasonable doubt as to whether Chauvin's actions were a substantial causal factor. They don't have to be the sole factor. They don't even have to be the dominant factor. Just a substantial (or material) causal factor.
In turn, the question then becomes whether a reasonable juror could conclude that George Floyd would have died at that particular moment anyway, without Chauvin doing what he did. From the verdict, the jury was not able to make that conclusion.

As to the Fentanyl, there has been internet chatter consistent with what you appear to believe. In fact Some sarcastic Dude had a viral FB post that basically said GF had enough Fentanyl in his system to kill three grown men or two Stacy Abrams'. Funny, huh?

In reality, the testimony during the trial from the expert toxicology witness (I think his name was Isenfeld) and the Hennepin County Medical Examiner was that the Fentanyl levels were not fatal nor the cause of his death. The toxicologist presented data from over 2000 Fentanyl containing blood samples from DUI cases and GF was in the lower end of this spectrum. There was also something technical to do with the amount of the Fentanyl that could be shown to have already broken down, metabolized in his body which supported the non-fatal conclusion. You can easily find this testimony and graphic for yourself if you look.

It's worth noting, that this is all based on MN law which is where the incident occurred. In another state, the outcome could have been very different because of the difference in legal tests and standards associated with the charges.


Thanks for this. I wanted to incorporate it in my just prior response but I did not because I was not on top of all the details as you were here.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:20 am

Tortoise wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:45 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:07 pm
Man we are splitting hairs here!
Splitting hairs?

Have you ever served on a jury, Corto? Listening to hours of detailed evidence and witness testimony, then considering and discussing it for hours before rendering a verdict, is pretty much what jurors are expected to do.

In criminal trials, people's lives and freedom hang in the balance. That demands careful consideration of facts and details. The judge doesn't typically instruct the jurors, "Let's not split hairs here, people. Just go with your gut on this one. It's a no-brainer!"
Twice. Once was a gangland murder, once was a car accident.

The gang murder trial was a joke. They got this guy, charged him, and the evidence wasn't even relevant. The details are hazy (over 30 years ago) but it was along the lines of they never found a gun on the suspect and the guy was shot with at least two different weapons. We deliberated for I think at most 2 hours.

Splitting hairs was probably the wrong wording. What I am still trying to say is I don't care if he was on drugs. I don't care if he just gave a counterfeit $20 bill. Nothing that he did during that day justified him being dead. And if I was a juror on that case, the proximate/main/biggest probable cause of death was what Chauvin did to him. Case closed (for me).

That is my assessment. 11 other people could have different opinions. Hypothetically, if I was on the jury, and I was the only holdout given what I have seen about the case, I absolutely would have hung that jury if they were going to acquit Chauvin.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Tortoise » Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:22 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:20 am
Splitting hairs was probably the wrong wording. What I am still trying to say is I don't care if he was on drugs. I don't care if he just gave a counterfeit $20 bill. Nothing that he did during that day justified him being dead. And if I was a juror on that case, the proximate/main/biggest probable cause of death was what Chauvin did to him. Case closed (for me).
It sounds like maybe you misunderstood the point of my post about the fentanyl.

I didn't bring up the topic of the fentanyl in Floyd's system to suggest that he was a lowlife junkie who's better off dead. To imply that would be a straw man. I brought it up because I was wondering whether the level of fentanyl in Floyd's system could have possibly caused him to stop breathing. The fact that he started complaining about breathing trouble before Chauvin placed him face-down on the ground seems relevant to me.

If I were a juror on Chauvin's case, I would have wanted to know the answer to the fentanyl question. Your post above seems to suggest that you would not have cared. You had already made up your mind on Chauvin's guilt and considered it "case closed".

As I already agreed in a previous post, the video is pretty damning for Chauvin. But I also realize that appearances can sometimes be deceiving, and a single video provides only a single perspective. Because of that, I think it's important to fairly consider all available evidence and testimony -- not just a single video.

But that's just me. You do you.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by pp4me » Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:43 am

Tortoise wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:22 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:20 am
Splitting hairs was probably the wrong wording. What I am still trying to say is I don't care if he was on drugs. I don't care if he just gave a counterfeit $20 bill. Nothing that he did during that day justified him being dead. And if I was a juror on that case, the proximate/main/biggest probable cause of death was what Chauvin did to him. Case closed (for me).
It sounds like maybe you misunderstood the point of my post about the fentanyl.

I didn't bring up the topic of the fentanyl in Floyd's system to suggest that he was a lowlife junkie who's better off dead. To imply that would be a straw man. I brought it up because I was wondering whether the level of fentanyl in Floyd's system could have possibly caused him to stop breathing. The fact that he started complaining about breathing trouble before Chauvin placed him face-down on the ground seems relevant to me.

If I were a juror on Chauvin's case, I would have wanted to know the answer to the fentanyl question. Your post above seems to suggest that you would not have cared. You had already made up your mind on Chauvin's guilt and considered it "case closed".

As I already agreed in a previous post, the video is pretty damning for Chauvin. But I also realize that appearances can sometimes be deceiving, and a single video provides only a single perspective. Because of that, I think it's important to fairly consider all available evidence and testimony -- not just a single video.

But that's just me. You do you.
I read somewhere that the jury was instructed on the murder charge that Chauvin's actions only had to be a contributing factor in his death, thus making the lethal dose of fentanyl in his system irrelevant.

Unlike Vinny I haven't read any transcripts so he can correct me if I heard that wrong.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:03 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:22 am
The fact that he started complaining about breathing trouble before Chauvin placed him face-down on the ground seems relevant to me.
I am not a cop. I don't deal with this stuff daily. I cannot imagine being one in a city like Chicago in certain areas.

I suppose my only response was that I would have hoped a cop maybe would have taken that "I can't breathe" statement more seriously, instead of seemingly thinking the guy was just trying to use that line to get him off of him?
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Tortoise » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:43 pm

Given that glennds pointed out the MN legal test for murder is "substantial causal factor", it's interesting to consider some other ways in which the scenario could have played out.

I think one of the expert witnesses testified that Chauvin would have been justified in using a taser on Floyd when he first arrived on the scene (but he chose not to).

Let's assume Chauvin had tased Floyd instead of kneeling on him, and the drugs in Floyd's system -- possibly along with preexisting health issues -- caused his heart to stop and he died.

In that scenario, could a jury apply the same "substantial causal factor" test to conclude that Chauvin murdered Floyd by tasing him since Floyd probably wouldn't have died if Chauvin hadn't tased him?
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:49 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:43 pm
Given that glennds pointed out the MN legal test for murder is "substantial causal factor", it's interesting to consider some other ways in which the scenario could have played out.

I think one of the expert witnesses testified that Chauvin would have been justified in using a taser on Floyd when he first arrived on the scene (but he chose not to).

Let's assume Chauvin had tased Floyd instead of kneeling on him, and the drugs in Floyd's system -- possibly along with preexisting health issues -- caused his heart to stop and he died.

In that scenario, could a jury apply the same "substantial causal factor" test to conclude that Chauvin murdered Floyd by tasing him since Floyd probably wouldn't have died if Chauvin hadn't tased him?
Whether it makes sense or not, that would be a much grayer area for me. I wonder how many cases are out there of people that have....

Yikes: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/polic ... since-2000

Now I don't know what to think!

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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Tortoise » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:59 pm

Yikes, indeed.

If the new precedent being set -- at least in MN -- is that a cop can be convicted of murder or manslaughter any time they apply procedurally-approved force to a suspect and the suspect dies in the process, then I have no idea why anybody would choose to become a cop. Way too much risk for not nearly enough reward.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by vnatale » Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:01 pm

pp4me wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:43 am

Tortoise wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:22 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:20 am

Splitting hairs was probably the wrong wording. What I am still trying to say is I don't care if he was on drugs. I don't care if he just gave a counterfeit $20 bill. Nothing that he did during that day justified him being dead. And if I was a juror on that case, the proximate/main/biggest probable cause of death was what Chauvin did to him. Case closed (for me).


It sounds like maybe you misunderstood the point of my post about the fentanyl.

I didn't bring up the topic of the fentanyl in Floyd's system to suggest that he was a lowlife junkie who's better off dead. To imply that would be a straw man. I brought it up because I was wondering whether the level of fentanyl in Floyd's system could have possibly caused him to stop breathing. The fact that he started complaining about breathing trouble before Chauvin placed him face-down on the ground seems relevant to me.

If I were a juror on Chauvin's case, I would have wanted to know the answer to the fentanyl question. Your post above seems to suggest that you would not have cared. You had already made up your mind on Chauvin's guilt and considered it "case closed".

As I already agreed in a previous post, the video is pretty damning for Chauvin. But I also realize that appearances can sometimes be deceiving, and a single video provides only a single perspective. Because of that, I think it's important to fairly consider all available evidence and testimony -- not just a single video.

But that's just me. You do you.


I read somewhere that the jury was instructed on the murder charge that Chauvin's actions only had to be a contributing factor in his death, thus making the lethal dose of fentanyl in his system irrelevant.

Unlike Vinny I haven't read any transcripts so he can correct me if I heard that wrong.


I was listening to the judge's instructions to the jurors. However, they were quite lengthy and, as usual, I was also doing something else. Since they did not get my full attention I cannot affirm or not affirm what you just stated.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by vnatale » Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:06 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:43 pm

Given that glennds pointed out the MN legal test for murder is "substantial causal factor", it's interesting to consider some other ways in which the scenario could have played out.

I think one of the expert witnesses testified that Chauvin would have been justified in using a taser on Floyd when he first arrived on the scene (but he chose not to).

Let's assume Chauvin had tased Floyd instead of kneeling on him, and the drugs in Floyd's system -- possibly along with preexisting health issues -- caused his heart to stop and he died.

In that scenario, could a jury apply the same "substantial causal factor" test to conclude that Chauvin murdered Floyd by tasing him since Floyd probably wouldn't have died if Chauvin hadn't tased him?


I think I might say with at least 99% confidence that they probably would not have. However, I'm not remembering any of the expert witnesses testifying to the use of a taser being justified. I could have missed it, not heard it, or am not remembering it.

What Chauvin DID DO was pure overkill. Floyd was handcuffed on the ground. There were four police right there plus another one across the street. He was presenting no threat to anyone. This would be almost a textbook definition of "excessive use of force".
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by vnatale » Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:08 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:49 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:43 pm

Given that glennds pointed out the MN legal test for murder is "substantial causal factor", it's interesting to consider some other ways in which the scenario could have played out.

I think one of the expert witnesses testified that Chauvin would have been justified in using a taser on Floyd when he first arrived on the scene (but he chose not to).

Let's assume Chauvin had tased Floyd instead of kneeling on him, and the drugs in Floyd's system -- possibly along with preexisting health issues -- caused his heart to stop and he died.

In that scenario, could a jury apply the same "substantial causal factor" test to conclude that Chauvin murdered Floyd by tasing him since Floyd probably wouldn't have died if Chauvin hadn't tased him?


Whether it makes sense or not, that would be a much grayer area for me. I wonder how many cases are out there of people that have....

Yikes: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/polic ... since-2000

Now I don't know what to think!

Image


I believe that I heard that in 2020 the police killed 1,100 people, which was an all-time high except for one other year?

Of those 1,100 people killed the police were only found guilty of killing 11. That gives them a 99% non-guilty rate. Does that seem reasonable? I'm not saying yes or no myself here, except that it strikes me as a high rate.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by glennds » Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:46 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:43 pm
Given that glennds pointed out the MN legal test for murder is "substantial causal factor", it's interesting to consider some other ways in which the scenario could have played out.

I think one of the expert witnesses testified that Chauvin would have been justified in using a taser on Floyd when he first arrived on the scene (but he chose not to).

Let's assume Chauvin had tased Floyd instead of kneeling on him, and the drugs in Floyd's system -- possibly along with preexisting health issues -- caused his heart to stop and he died.

In that scenario, could a jury apply the same "substantial causal factor" test to conclude that Chauvin murdered Floyd by tasing him since Floyd probably wouldn't have died if Chauvin hadn't tased him?
That's a good question and an interesting alternate scenario. Let me make the disclaimer that I'm not an attorney let alone a MN attorney, and my crash course on this case comes out of pure fascination with the technical aspects of the relevant laws, and how they interact with our rights as citizens, both looking at it from GF's perspective, but equally as much from Chauvin's i.e. his right to a fair trial, presumption of innocence, etc. You never know when any of us could find ourselves charged with a crime, or the victim of one.
This said, I can't imagine the DA or AG would even bring charges against an officer in the taser example, though it would probably be thoroughly investigated because of the death.

First, substantial causal factor is only one of many tests that were applicable here, something I may not have made clear earlier. For example, there is a test for intentional infliction of bodily harm. Chauvin had to know he was inflicting harm when he was doing so, and in doing so he was effectively committing a felony, that being assault.
There is a test for "reasonable officer standard" which is where the testimony from other police officers came into play. If the tasing was within standard protocol, it would be hard to say Chauvin acted unreasonably as an officer
There is a test for "an act that is eminently dangerous to others, and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life"
There is a test for "reckless disregard for human life"

There are other tests that were applicable between and among the three charges. But when you read through the above list, it's difficult to apply them to the taser example, especially when the officer could not know about the underlying health conditions which caused the death. Yes, the taser scenario does have the "but for" feature i.e. but for being tased, GF would still be alive, but still the other tests do not apply, so it would not be murder, manslaughter, nor even criminal negligence or misconduct so long as it was within police protocol.
Last edited by glennds on Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by vnatale » Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:48 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:33 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:08 pm


Of those 1,100 people killed the police were only found guilty of killing 11. That gives them a 99% non-guilty rate. Does that seem reasonable? I'm not saying yes or no myself here, except that it strikes me as a high rate.


The police have strong unions with well-paid shyster lawyers and are able to literally get away with murder 99 times out of 100. Insane.


I know I've been intending to say this here at some point but don't think I have until now.

From my extensive exposure to the trial I was extremely impressed with all of the main players in it..

The judge was quite fair to both sides. Seemed to be dedicated to a fair trial.

The prosecution put on an excellent presentation, bringing in some superstar witnesses.

The defense, which seemed to be composed of just lawyer Nelson, did about as good a job as one could expect given what he had to defend. I did not buy much of what he was trying to promote but, under the conditions, he did about as well as anyone would have been able to. If I'd been accused of a crime I'd be thrilled to have him representing my defense.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by flyingpylon » Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:58 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:33 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:08 pm

Of those 1,100 people killed the police were only found guilty of killing 11. That gives them a 99% non-guilty rate. Does that seem reasonable? I'm not saying yes or no myself here, except that it strikes me as a high rate.
The police have strong unions with well-paid shyster lawyers and are able to literally get away with murder 99 times out of 100. Insane.
What percentage of those killed were in the process of committing a crime? Certainly some percentage would have been justified. Lots of context missing here.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by vnatale » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:36 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:58 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:33 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:08 pm


Of those 1,100 people killed the police were only found guilty of killing 11. That gives them a 99% non-guilty rate. Does that seem reasonable? I'm not saying yes or no myself here, except that it strikes me as a high rate.


The police have strong unions with well-paid shyster lawyers and are able to literally get away with murder 99 times out of 100. Insane.


What percentage of those killed were in the process of committing a crime? Certainly some percentage would have been justified. Lots of context missing here.


Probably a quite high percentage. But 99%? The police are that accurate in their judgement?

I'm not sure that I can claim to be 99% correct in all I have done for work, particularly what I've done under the most stressful circumstances, which I would have to believe had to have been the case in each and every one of those 1,100 deaths.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by glennds » Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:26 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:48 pm


The defense, which seemed to be composed of just lawyer Nelson, did about as good a job as one could expect given what he had to defend. I did not buy much of what he was trying to promote but, under the conditions, he did about as well as anyone would have been able to. If I'd been accused of a crime I'd be thrilled to have him representing my defense.
I've heard other defense attorneys express surprise at the fact that he ran a trial like this as a one man band. Even from a standpoint of fatigue and having the benefit of two sets of eyes and ears serving the client.
Not sure if this should be impressive, or whether he might have served his client's interests better with a wingman. Like you however, most everyone feels he did a solid job with the facts and law with which he had to work.
Last edited by glennds on Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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