Chauvin Verdict

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Maddy
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Chauvin Verdict

Post by Maddy » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:33 pm

I have not been following this trial all that closely, but several recent, well-publicized, events have left me wondering whether anything is left of our legal system. (By way of background, I was in general and commercial litigation for several decades, then around 2010 got out when the system appeared to have lost all integrity.)

A couple of things about this trial are especially noteworthy: First, a recent article (from a source that I can no longer remember but which appeared reliable) summarized the voir dire of the jurors who were empaneled for the case. Eight out of 15, I noted, actually admitted to having some degree of bias against the defendant. Then, just this week, we see large, well-orchestrated left-wing coalitions threatening the burning down of cities in the event that the defendant is not convicted. In the last couple of days, we've seen Congresswoman Maxine Waters actually calling for the escalation of that violence. Today, we have Biden weighing in, proclaiming that there is only one acceptable outcome of this trial--a verdict of "guilty."

Interestingly, the trial judge harshly condemned Maxine Waters' behavior as potentially prejudicial to the case on appeal; however, noting that the jury had been cautioned against exposure to news sources, he discounted the very distinct probability that the jury's verdict itself might be affected. The elephant in the livingroom, of course, is the fact that these jurors have EVERY reason to expect that they and their families, personally, will be the target of violence if the trial results in acquittal. Hell, there's a mob outside the courthouse waiting. These jurors are sitting ducks, and if they value their lives, there indeed is only one possible way to vote: to convict.

This is what our system of justice has come to.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:09 pm

I understand all your points on it being a foregone conclusion, really I do.

But I have to balance that with Chauvin had a lifetime to rethink what he was doing during those 8 or so minutes. *Maybe* for the first 15-30 seconds, there was enough adrenalin going on that it was justified. But minutes in, after becoming unresponsive, c'mon.

He slowly murdered the guy, plain and simple, and stupidly, knowing he was being videoed on multiple phones. And also -- if it was not caught on video, he'd still be out there policing, something would have been hatched to cover up the real circumstances. No love lost for Chauvin about being railroaded here from me.

Waters -- stupid dumbass comments. Nothing new there.

Let's compare that with the 13 year old killed in Chicago recently where the footage was released. The "kid" had a gun, and was running from a cop after shots were fired at 2:30 in the morning. He turned around raising his hands while dropping the gun. He was shot once and the cop immediately called 911 and went up to him and started CPR. A world of difference. That cop did everything he was supposed to. People are trying to play age as a factor, that his hands were up (like 0.8 seconds after he dropped the gun), etc. But protesting and violence has been muted on this one because it doesn't take much to see the cop acted appropriately.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by pugchief » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:26 pm

Corto,
No argument with any of your statements, however, it doesn't change the fact that Chauvin is entitled to a fair and unbiased trial. He is getting neither.

Also, if Trump was 'inciting violence' at the Capitol, how is Aunt Maxine not doing the same? Stupidity is no excuse; she should be in prison.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Tortoise » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:28 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:09 pm
He slowly murdered the guy, plain and simple [...]
You sound very sure about that. Therefore, I'm assuming you watched and listened to all of the evidence and witness testimony presented by both the prosecution and the defense in Chauvin's trial?
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by pugchief » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:40 pm

7036df2073be.jpg
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by glennds » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:47 pm

Maddy wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:33 pm
I have not been following this trial all that closely, but several recent, well-publicized, events have left me wondering whether anything is left of our legal system. (By way of background, I was in general and commercial litigation for several decades, then around 2010 got out when the system appeared to have lost all integrity.) ...
Do you have an opinion about the case itself? Did Chauvin's actions rise to the level of criminal, whether 2nd or 3rd degree murder or manslaughter?

I ask because as a layperson, I have the impression that the jury's job here is tougher than many people think. Some of the legal analysis, going both ways, has been very interesting.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Xan » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:52 pm

pugchief wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:40 pm
7036df2073be.jpg
Not only that, but for the President of the United States to try to overtly try to bully a jury in a criminal case by saying there's only one right answer? Wow! What would the media have done if Trump had done something like that?
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by pp4me » Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:11 pm

glennds wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:47 pm
I ask because as a layperson, I have the impression that the jury's job here is tougher than many people think. Some of the legal analysis, going both ways, has been very interesting.
Reminds me of when Oliver Darden told the O.J. Simpson jury in his closing argument as a prosecutor that they had a tough job to do and he wouldn't want to be in their shoes. He was roundly criticized by lawyers for telling the jury there was reasonable doubt and apparently the jury got the message.

I haven't read all the transcripts and most assuredly will not but I've heard enough to conclude that there is, at least, reasonable doubt as to what the true cause of death was. Not sure that legal principal applies any more, however - at least not in this case and others like it.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by glennds » Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:17 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:52 pm
pugchief wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:40 pm
7036df2073be.jpg
Not only that, but for the President of the United States to try to overtly try to bully a jury in a criminal case by saying there's only one right answer? Wow! What would the media have done if Trump had done something like that?
He added the qualifier that he would not be saying anything if the jury wasn't sequestered and therefore could not know what he was saying, so I'm not sure you can say he was overtly trying to bully the jury.
But still, I agree with your larger point, he should absolutely have remained silent. All public figures should be silent on the trial and let the legal process function without influence from them. Especially the President.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:24 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:28 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:09 pm
He slowly murdered the guy, plain and simple [...]
You sound very sure about that. Therefore, I'm assuming you watched and listened to all of the evidence and witness testimony presented by both the prosecution and the defense in Chauvin's trial?
You are correct, I have not weighed all the evidence. It's possible I could have my mind changed. All I am going on is the video evidence that he was alive at the beginning of the 8 minutes and dead at the end.

What's the legal term, Proximate Cause? "But for the action, the result would not have happened."

Pretty sure Floyd was not going to drop dead without Chauvin around in those 8 minutes.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Xan » Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:25 pm

glennds wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:17 pm
Xan wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:52 pm
pugchief wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:40 pm
7036df2073be.jpg
Not only that, but for the President of the United States to try to overtly try to bully a jury in a criminal case by saying there's only one right answer? Wow! What would the media have done if Trump had done something like that?
He added the qualifier that he would not be saying anything if the jury wasn't sequestered and therefore could not know what he was saying, so I'm not sure you can say he was overtly trying to bully the jury.
But still, I agree with your larger point, he should absolutely have remained silent. All public figures should be silent on the trial and let the legal process function without influence from them. Especially the President.
hmm, well at least that's something. You're right, it might not rise to the level of "overt".

And even apart from the question of influencing the jury, if the verdict comes back not guilty, then how does his statement about the "only right answer" affect would-be rioters? How does Biden have any claim on knowing what the right answer is unless he's in the courtroom?

(Not arguing with you, glenn, I think we're in agreement here.)
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by glennds » Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:52 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:25 pm
glennds wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:17 pm
Xan wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:52 pm
pugchief wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:40 pm
7036df2073be.jpg
Not only that, but for the President of the United States to try to overtly try to bully a jury in a criminal case by saying there's only one right answer? Wow! What would the media have done if Trump had done something like that?
He added the qualifier that he would not be saying anything if the jury wasn't sequestered and therefore could not know what he was saying, so I'm not sure you can say he was overtly trying to bully the jury.
But still, I agree with your larger point, he should absolutely have remained silent. All public figures should be silent on the trial and let the legal process function without influence from them. Especially the President.
hmm, well at least that's something. You're right, it might not rise to the level of "overt".

And even apart from the question of influencing the jury, if the verdict comes back not guilty, then how does his statement about the "only right answer" affect would-be rioters? How does Biden have any claim on knowing what the right answer is unless he's in the courtroom?

(Not arguing with you, glenn, I think we're in agreement here.)
We are in agreement. Opening his mouth was wrong on many levels and downright irresponsible. Emboldening rioters should be a big concern for him.
Plus if Biden purports to represent ALL Americans, then that ought to include Derek Chauvin who, until a jury of his peers comes back with a verdict to the contrary, is presumed innocent.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by sophie » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:16 pm

Yes, on that score it's pretty clear that Derek Chauvin is getting a kangaroo court proceeding and not a trial.

Given what Biden has put in motion to interfere with the Supreme Court, it's pretty clear he has no truck with justice. And of course, I hope that everyone can see how this trial has highlighted the obvious pro-Democrat and anti-Trump bias by the press.

Obvious to some of us anyway.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by pp4me » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:22 pm

Verdict to be announced shortly, according to Fox News.

Brace for impact!
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Maddy » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:24 pm

glennds wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:47 pm
Do you have an opinion about the case itself? Did Chauvin's actions rise to the level of criminal, whether 2nd or 3rd degree murder or manslaughter?
No, I really don't. All I've picked up is what we've been fed by the media--which we know to be untrustworthy and oftentimes flat-out made up.

I think it's possible that all of those years in litigation has made me very reluctant to come to conclusions. I can't count the times that the evidence appears to be very one-sided--then when the other side is heard--well, it's a whole different story. I'm content to let the judicial process work it all out, but like PugChief, I'm concerned about whether the process here is working--and whether it can possibly work when high-ranking officials have made the verdict a political football and a mob mentality has taken over.

There's a short story called "The Lottery," which I remember from high school, almost 50 years ago. Something about a quaint little town with the custom of ceremoniously stoning one member of the community each year. Seems curiously apropos.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:15 pm

Unless the video is a deep fake, which I assume is possible -- but there were so many witnesses and multiple videos, I can only come to the conclusion that Floyd would not have been dead were it not for Chauvin's actions.

I find it hard to fathom any other evidence possibly changing my opinion. What about the video(s) leaves any doubt? You can go down the path of he had drugs in his system, a heart condition, etc. But were it not for the fact of the lack of oxygen because of what was being done to him, I think he'd be alive. Is there a .000001% chance he was destined to have a heart attack at the same moment and that caused his death? Ok, sure.

I agree Chauvin has been (railroaded??) by the system, but he 100% deserved it.

The government has put away a ton of people over the past 250 years on a lot less, or zero, evidence.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:15 pm

Apple picked a very unfortunate date for their latest product reveal.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:17 pm

Guilty on all counts.
Let the mostly peaceful celebrations begin.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by sophie » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:20 pm

I expect his attorneys will appeal, so...no immediate resolution, I suspect. For the moment Minneapolis has dodged the riot bullet.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by whatchamacallit » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:36 pm

Are verdicts binary or can your verdict be:

Guilty out of fear for my personal safety.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Maddy » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:26 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:15 pm
I find it hard to fathom any other evidence possibly changing my opinion. What about the video(s) leaves any doubt? . . .s death? Ok, sure.

I agree Chauvin has been (railroaded??) by the system, but he 100% deserved it.
The day I saw an opposing counsel dummy up evidence--and saw the court look the other way--was the day I concluded that NOTHING is clear. Thank goodness for the presumption of innocence, and thank goodness for whatever due process guarantees remain.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:43 pm

I respect your opinion but do not agree with it.

I still am not seeing where or how evidence is not clear, in this specific case. I am happy to listen to arguments on how Chauvin is possibly not guilty.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Maddy » Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:39 pm

None of us sat on that jury, so it doesn't matter squat what any of us thinks. What matters is whether these jurors evaluated the evidence fairly and objectively, or whether their verdict was swayed--even in part--by the fact that an acquittal would have put targets on their backs for life. The process DOES matter.

Interestingly, the viewpoint I have expressed was the "liberal" viewpoint back in the '90s when I was first starting out. And it was the viewpoint of those who cared about the young black men in the ghetto who were being unjustly imprisoned because some police officer, some prosecutor, or some judge believed that procedural shortcuts didn't matter because their guilt was absolutely clear.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by SomeDude » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:39 pm

Thank God that criminal mastermind Chauvin will be behind bars tonight. Innocent giant career criminals committing felonies and resisting arrest while on meth and phentonal with 90% artery blockages, heart disease, sky high blood pressure etc. can all "breathe" easy tonight.

This genius killer who planned to commit murder of good boy George in front of all those cameras will finally be behind bars. I mean didn't they originally call paramedics for the cuts on his face, long before he stopped talking through all the choking? It was a brilliant attempt at covering up his murderous rampage.

Seriously this is the 100% renunciation of even the pretense of the rule of law. If you're a black male now resisting arrest, just say you can't breathe. Even before they touch you just say you can't breathe, you will probably walk away free.

I predict the lawlessness will increase. The criminals and rioters will be emboldened, not appeased.

Good luck to those living in "diverse" urban environments. This is very sad for Chauvin and the country, and as a general rule i don't like cops. They enforce nonsense like the covid bullcrap. But whatever. We're in clown world now. I looked at my wife and baby tonight, and i don't know if i would have had the courage to hang the jury if i thought he was not guilty. It's basically a death sentence for you and possibly your family. Since the other cops hung Chauvin out to dry, they certainly wouldn't help you. They would probably escort the mob right to your front door.

Bad day.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Tortoise » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:51 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:39 pm
I looked at my wife and baby tonight, and i don't know if i would have had the courage to hang the jury if i thought he was not guilty. It's basically a death sentence for you and possibly your family.
Ditto. I would have never agreed to be on that particular jury in the first place. During the jury selection process, I would have purposefully said something virtually guaranteed to get me eliminated.

Come to think of it, just answering the attorneys' questions honestly probably would have gotten me eliminated from that jury.
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