Chauvin Verdict

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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by pp4me » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:05 am

Tortoise wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:51 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:39 pm
I looked at my wife and baby tonight, and i don't know if i would have had the courage to hang the jury if i thought he was not guilty. It's basically a death sentence for you and possibly your family.
Ditto. I would have never agreed to be on that particular jury in the first place. During the jury selection process, I would have purposefully said something virtually guaranteed to get me eliminated.

Come to think of it, just answering the attorneys' questions honestly probably would have gotten me eliminated from that jury.
The last time I was called for jury duty it was an arrest for marijuana possession discovered during a traffic stop for an expected DWI. The defendant was black and the racial implications were more than obvious. The defense was going to claim there was no reason for the defendant to be stopped other than his race. She even said she would be offering video evidence of the arrest to show that the driver was calm and not impaired and even asked the potential jurors outright if the video showed that, would they find her client not guilty?

I was really surprised that they were allowed to make such statements and ask questions like that during jury selection. Wasn't how I thought it was supposed to work but the judge said nothing so I guess it wasn't unusual.

When my turn for questioning came up it was the prosecuting attorney who asked, best I can remember without paraphrasing, "I see that you are a software engineer. So does that mean I will have to show you absolute proof to find the defendant guilty". My answer was "Can you explain what you mean" or something like that.

End of questioning. They just went to the next person and I was dismissed.

So I've figured ever since that I'm never going to sit on a jury because either one side or the other is not going to want somebody who thinks too much. So the last time I got a summons I just threw it away and ignored it. Haven't gotten one since.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by stuper1 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:07 am

sophie wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:38 am
What Maddy said!

Almost everything that the Democratic/liberal establishment claims to do for racial minorities contains in it an assumption that they need help to survive in our society, and are congenitally unable - by virtue of their race - to do so on their own.

How on earth can you not call that "racist"?

Also, have you noticed how nearly all these examples of police brutality are occurring in very liberal cities? I find that most interesting. Let me know the next time there's a police shooting in Cheyenne, Boise, Fargo, or Omaha, just in case I missed them.
There are police shootings in those places, typically of young hot-headed white men with guns. They just never get blown up by the national media into nonstop news coverage.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by moda0306 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:10 am

glennds wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:59 am
Certainly race is and continues to be the central theme of the Chauvin trial. But if you're willing to look beyond race, there is an issue at play that is quintessentially Libertarian IMO, that issue being limitations on police powers regardless of race.

Try conducting a thought experiment and pretend for a moment that GF was white, or that Chauvin was black, thus eliminating the race difference and the associated politics from the equation. Temporarily ignore the media and the politicians. In doing so we're left with a situation where the question is simply whether a reasonable person would deem the police use of force exerted on a citizen acceptable, in the context of constitutionally guaranteed protections.

One place where I'm sure we agree that the Bill of Rights has more than a passing concern with limitation on the scope of police power. Could yesterday's verdict be as much about civil liberty and the limits of police power as much as it had to do with race and race-centric civil rights? Does thinking about it in terms of the former instead of the latter affect your view? And does the issue now move from the Left to the Right (or at least somewhere other than Left) in your mind?
I totally agree with this. Voices discussing this as a default police power issue, rather than a race issue, aren’t being elevated.

I don’t think of this much in terms of race, though I totally understand why it’s an element and why some do. To me my main goal is to give racist people and/or people on a power trip less power. That means striking a very confrontational pose against police, regardless if whether that puts you on the same side as people who play the race card too much.

Take the murder of Daniel Shaver, Duncan Lemp, or the recent assault on Karen Garner. Or take the terrible behavior of police over last summer towards white and black alike. This all should be front of mind. Especially when their brothers in blue say nothing but try to defend their colleagues.

Maddy is the one asserting that 99% of the time our justice system is unfair towards young black men, so my point was to reconcile that with her (assuming female sorry if that’s incorrect) constant hand-wringing about how uniquely awful the left is due to the 1% of the time they supposedly get their hands on our justice system and behave in similarly vindictive ways.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Xan » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:42 am

glennds wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:59 am
Certainly race is and continues to be the central theme of the Chauvin trial. But if you're willing to look beyond race, there is an issue at play that is quintessentially Libertarian IMO, that issue being limitations on police powers regardless of race.

Try conducting a thought experiment and pretend for a moment that GF was white, or that Chauvin was black, thus eliminating the race difference and the associated politics from the equation. Temporarily ignore the media and the politicians. In doing so we're left with a situation where the question is simply whether a reasonable person would deem the police use of force exerted on a citizen acceptable, in the context of constitutionally guaranteed protections.

One place where I'm sure we agree that the Bill of Rights has more than a passing concern with limitation on the scope of police power. Could yesterday's verdict be as much about civil liberty and the limits of police power as much as it had to do with race and race-centric civil rights? Does thinking about it in terms of the former instead of the latter affect your view? And does the issue now move from the Left to the Right (or at least somewhere other than Left) in your mind?
Well said, glenn. John McWhorter recently put out a thing (I think I'm subscribed to his email newsletter) contending that the whole race issue re: George Floyd is completely blown out of all proportion, that people are losing their minds over it for no reason, etc. The thesis was something like, "Is Derek Chauvin a murderer or a racist murderer?".

(Aside: I think McWhorter having an opinion on the guilt or innocence of a defendant is very different from someone in a position of real power having such an opinion.)

It ended, however, with saying that if all this craziness is what it takes for police to stop murdering people, regardless of their race, then maybe it's worthwhile anyway. Interesting take.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by pp4me » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:51 am

I'm finding it kind of amusing that when I considered myself a Lew Rockwell ant-state type libertarian I held much the same view of the police as the left does today, only without the rioting and violence.

Too bad technovelist isn't here to comment on that. I believe he was big on the idea of abolishing the police in favor of private policing.

As for me, I guess I've just tended to get more conservative as I've gotten older. I still hold a lot of libertarian ideas but I've also had to conclude that a lot of them were nice ideas but, like a lot of those on the left, they are disconnected from reality.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by SomeDude » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:57 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:10 am
I'm reminded of a boss I had that said "the best way to get out of trouble is to stay out of trouble". But of course that requires one to take responsibility for their actions .... an increasing lost art, especially in a culture that celebrates victimhood. :(
Are you saying pretty boy Floyd is responsible for his own death?
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by tomfoolery » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:59 am

As a long-time registered Democrat, here’s what I want:

I want a big powerful centrally-planned government that can take on climate crisis, gun violence, homelessness and every other major issue. Lots of regulations to keep corporations from polluting land and keep white supremacists from owning assault weapons.

At the same time I don’t want police to have any power or authority because they’re bad people and it leads to blacks being murdered simply for selling loose cigarettes or passing phony checks.

Why do police need assault weapons and armored vehicles and to be allowed to kick in doors without announcing themselves?

But I want the government to stop white supremacists from creating ghost guns in their garage. Because those guns get stolen by black children who are just kids being kids and then merely having a loaded stolen gun in their hand is justification for the police to murder these children who dindu nuffin.

Defund the police. Stop making it illegal to be black in America. Go after real criminals like white supremacists, corporate CEOs and landlords.

I don’t understand why this is so hard.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by SomeDude » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:04 am

Maddy wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:06 am

Moda, I've noticed a pattern in your posts. You seem to abhor principle. In fact, you regularly mock it.
The only principle lefties/communists believe in is "the ends justify the means". The ends are.....whatever they want at that moment. Ergo, they don't have principles and so naturally they don't understand others having them and mock them as some kind of emotional or intellectual defect. You can see this all the time in the lefty posts on the forum.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by vnatale » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:17 am

Tortoise wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:28 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:09 pm

He slowly murdered the guy, plain and simple [...]


You sound very sure about that. Therefore, I'm assuming you watched and listened to all of the evidence and witness testimony presented by both the prosecution and the defense in Chauvin's trial?


For all those expressing opinions here...how closely did you follow the trial? Was it anything more than seeing excerpts or reading filtered accounts of the trial? I found the written account of the trial woefully inadequate in terms of details.

Me? It was MUST following for me.

I either heard or watched the entire trial. Some parts of it I heard four times as C-Span 2 would replay prior testimony each time the trial went into any form of break. Plus, each night at 8 PM C-Span 2 replayed the entire earlier day's trail.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by vnatale » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:21 am

pp4me wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:11 pm

glennds wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:47 pm

I ask because as a layperson, I have the impression that the jury's job here is tougher than many people think. Some of the legal analysis, going both ways, has been very interesting.


Reminds me of when Oliver Darden told the O.J. Simpson jury in his closing argument as a prosecutor that they had a tough job to do and he wouldn't want to be in their shoes. He was roundly criticized by lawyers for telling the jury there was reasonable doubt and apparently the jury got the message.

I haven't read all the transcripts and most assuredly will not but I've heard enough to conclude that there is, at least, reasonable doubt as to what the true cause of death was. Not sure that legal principal applies any more, however - at least not in this case and others like it.


If you'd actually heard Pulmonologist Tobin's testimony I suspect you may have come to a different conclusion.

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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by vnatale » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:26 am

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:39 pm

Thank God that criminal mastermind Chauvin will be behind bars tonight. Innocent giant career criminals committing felonies and resisting arrest while on meth and phentonal with 90% artery blockages, heart disease, sky high blood pressure etc. can all "breathe" easy tonight.

This genius killer who planned to commit murder of good boy George in front of all those cameras will finally be behind bars. I mean didn't they originally call paramedics for the cuts on his face, long before he stopped talking through all the choking? It was a brilliant attempt at covering up his murderous rampage.

Seriously this is the 100% renunciation of even the pretense of the rule of law. If you're a black male now resisting arrest, just say you can't breathe. Even before they touch you just say you can't breathe, you will probably walk away free.

I predict the lawlessness will increase. The criminals and rioters will be emboldened, not appeased.

Good luck to those living in "diverse" urban environments. This is very sad for Chauvin and the country, and as a general rule i don't like cops. They enforce nonsense like the covid bullcrap. But whatever. We're in clown world now. I looked at my wife and baby tonight, and i don't know if i would have had the courage to hang the jury if i thought he was not guilty. It's basically a death sentence for you and possibly your family. Since the other cops hung Chauvin out to dry, they certainly wouldn't help you. They would probably escort the mob right to your front door.

Bad day.


You write that without pausing to think what was the motivations behind their behavior? This was one of the few times wherein the police spoke out against one of their own. Is it not possible that they all viewed this as a gross misuse of force on the part of Chauvin?
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by SomeDude » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:35 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:26 am
You write that without pausing to think what was the motivations behind their behavior?
You write that without pausing to think that I paused and thought about what their motivations might be, which i did.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by moda0306 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:43 am

SomeDude wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:04 am
Maddy wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:06 am

Moda, I've noticed a pattern in your posts. You seem to abhor principle. In fact, you regularly mock it.
The only principle lefties/communists believe in is "the ends justify the means". The ends are.....whatever they want at that moment. Ergo, they don't have principles and so naturally they don't understand others having them and mock them as some kind of emotional or intellectual defect. You can see this all the time in the lefty posts on the forum.
The mere existence of police is predicated on ends justifying the means. Rich for a fashy Trumpanzee like yourself to talk about principles.

Real Anarchists tend to have principles. Everyone else sacrifices them to the alter of some sort of “ends.” What those ends are you might disagree with. The real exercise is finding out what those are.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by vnatale » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:53 am

SomeDude wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:35 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:26 am

You write that without pausing to think what was the motivations behind their behavior?


You write that without pausing to think that I paused and thought about what their motivations might be, which i did.


Okay. I accept at face value what you say and do not doubt you.

What did you think were their motivations for testifying the way that they did which seemingly was contrary to 99% of the way other police generally testify when a member of the police is on trial.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by tomfoolery » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:15 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:53 am
SomeDude wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:35 am
vnatale wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:26 am
You write that without pausing to think what was the motivations behind their behavior?
You write that without pausing to think that I paused and thought about what their motivations might be, which i did.
Okay. I accept at face value what you say and do not doubt you.

What did you think were their motivations for testifying the way that they did which seemingly was contrary to 99% of the way other police generally testify when a member of the police is on trial.
If I were a cop in Minneapolis and was asked to testify against my coworker, Chauvin, I’d absolutely agree he was racist, a murderer and whatever else the angry mob incited by Congressperson Waters wanted me to agree to in order to prevent my house from being burned down and my family from being attacked.

Just tell me what you want me to say.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by vnatale » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:20 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:15 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:53 am

SomeDude wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:35 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:26 am

You write that without pausing to think what was the motivations behind their behavior?


You write that without pausing to think that I paused and thought about what their motivations might be, which i did.


Okay. I accept at face value what you say and do not doubt you.

What did you think were their motivations for testifying the way that they did which seemingly was contrary to 99% of the way other police generally testify when a member of the police is on trial.


If I were a cop in Minneapolis and was asked to testify against my coworker, Chauvin, I’d absolutely agree he was racist, a murderer and whatever else the angry mob incited by Congressperson Waters wanted me to agree to in order to prevent my house from being burned down and my family from being attacked.

Just tell me what you want me to say.


That impugns the integrity of each one who did testify.

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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Tortoise » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:22 pm

pp4me wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:05 am
When my turn for questioning came up it was the prosecuting attorney who asked, best I can remember without paraphrasing, "I see that you are a software engineer. So does that mean I will have to show you absolute proof to find the defendant guilty". My answer was "Can you explain what you mean" or something like that.

End of questioning. They just went to the next person and I was dismissed.

So I've figured ever since that I'm never going to sit on a jury because either one side or the other is not going to want somebody who thinks too much.
That's possible, but I'm an engineer and got selected to serve on a jury a couple of years ago. In that case, the attorneys seemed more interested in dismissing potential jurors who possessed bias (or the potential for bias) against their side. Mainly people who had close relationships with people in law enforcement or who had strong feelings -- whether positive or negative -- about law enforcement. Critical thinking ability, or lack thereof, didn't seem to be on their radar in that trial.

Maybe it depends on the type of case, the complexity of the case, etc.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Maddy » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:56 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:10 am
Maddy is the one asserting that 99% of the time our justice system is unfair towards young black men, so my point was to reconcile that with her (assuming female sorry if that’s incorrect) constant hand-wringing about how uniquely awful the left is due to the 1% of the time they supposedly get their hands on our justice system and behave in similarly vindictive ways.
This isn't a game. You're talking about peoples' lives. I don't care whether the victim of a stacked judicial system is a police officer or a young black man: An unfair trial is an unfair trial and shouldn't be tolerated by anyone--left or right. The idea that the playing field needs to be leveled systemically by hanging a few police officers out to dry is reprehensible by any civilized standard.

And, yes--it's the Left that has adopted this vindictive, retributive way of thinking as normative, and just about every policy they've put forward recently literally reeks of it.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by moda0306 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:15 pm

Maddy wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:56 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:10 am
Maddy is the one asserting that 99% of the time our justice system is unfair towards young black men, so my point was to reconcile that with her (assuming female sorry if that’s incorrect) constant hand-wringing about how uniquely awful the left is due to the 1% of the time they supposedly get their hands on our justice system and behave in similarly vindictive ways.
This isn't a game. You're talking about peoples' lives. I don't care whether the victim of a stacked judicial system is a police officer or a young black man: An unfair trial is an unfair trial and shouldn't be tolerated by anyone--left or right. The idea that the playing field needs to be leveled systemically by hanging a few police officers out to dry is reprehensible by any civilized standard.

And, yes--it's the Left that has adopted this vindictive, retributive way of thinking as normative, and just about every policy they've put forward recently literally reeks of it.
And since unfair trials of young black men are about 99x more likely than the unfair trial of a cop, per your very own description, I look forward to seeing you continually share their advocate for their well-being on this forum, as well as ridicule the non-leftist police/criminal-justice forces in our system as uniquely dangerous.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by pp4me » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:21 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:21 am
pp4me wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:11 pm
glennds wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:47 pm
I ask because as a layperson, I have the impression that the jury's job here is tougher than many people think. Some of the legal analysis, going both ways, has been very interesting.
Reminds me of when Oliver Darden told the O.J. Simpson jury in his closing argument as a prosecutor that they had a tough job to do and he wouldn't want to be in their shoes. He was roundly criticized by lawyers for telling the jury there was reasonable doubt and apparently the jury got the message.

I haven't read all the transcripts and most assuredly will not but I've heard enough to conclude that there is, at least, reasonable doubt as to what the true cause of death was. Not sure that legal principal applies any more, however - at least not in this case and others like it.
If you'd actually heard Pulmonologist Tobin's testimony I suspect you may have come to a different conclusion.
I probably heard snippets of it in the short daily summaries I read. I imagine that was in one of the "bad day for the defense" summaries.

I wasn't there to sit through the whole thing so I'll reserve judgment on the jury. Even if they came to their conclusion out of fear for their lives and families it's hard to blame them.

In regards to reasonable doubt, if the Dream Team could convince a jury that there was reasonable doubt in the O.J. Simpson case then surely some good defense lawyers could have done it in this one.

This case actually gave me a flashback to that one. Same level of interest and suspense at the end wondering what the verdict would be and if it would result in riots. And then there were all the black people rejoicing after the verdict in both cases. Despite different verdicts, the outcomes were somewhat similar to me.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by pp4me » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:37 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:22 pm
pp4me wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:05 am
That's possible, but I'm an engineer and got selected to serve on a jury a couple of years ago. In that case, the attorneys seemed more interested in dismissing potential jurors who possessed bias (or the potential for bias) against their side. Mainly people who had close relationships with people in law enforcement or who had strong feelings -- whether positive or negative -- about law enforcement.
I was also dismissed once for this very reason. My brother is a retired U.S. Marshall so I always have to answer "yes" to that question. Actually, they always ask it on the questionnaire they send out before you go for jury duty so I wonder why they even make me show up if they are going to excuse me for that reason.

Another question I have always had to answer "yes" to was have you ever been involved in a civil suit and I believe that has also kept me off of a jury.

Now that I'm retired with nothing better to do I think I'd actually like to serve on a jury some time but it seems like I have 3 strikes against me so it will probably never happen.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by pp4me » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:12 pm

In the aftermath of the verdict I'm getting the impression that a lot of people on the left, both politicians and the MSM, are actually disappointed.

So go figure.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by SomeDude » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:20 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:53 am
SomeDude wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:35 am
vnatale wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:26 am
You write that without pausing to think what was the motivations behind their behavior?
You write that without pausing to think that I paused and thought about what their motivations might be, which i did.
Okay. I accept at face value what you say and do not doubt you.

What did you think were their motivations for testifying the way that they did which seemingly was contrary to 99% of the way other police generally testify when a member of the police is on trial.
1. Their personal safety
2. Their family's safety
3. Their career

There is a violent lynch mob out to get anyone who supported the defense's position. There are grandstanding politicians who were all-in on a conviction as was the chief which is basically a political position.

In this case, any support for Chauvin would have been "breaking ranks" and done at great personal and professional risk.

Didn't one of the defense witnesses get a pig's head and blood smeared on the front door of house still in their name? Imagine all the violent emails and calls they were getting.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by SomeDude » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:22 pm

pp4me wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:12 pm
In the aftermath of the verdict I'm getting the impression that a lot of people on the left, both politicians and the MSM, are actually disappointed.

So go figure.
They immediately released more reasons to riot right after. There will be riots. An excuse will emerge. The excuse is immaterial.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by pp4me » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:53 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:22 pm
pp4me wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:12 pm
In the aftermath of the verdict I'm getting the impression that a lot of people on the left, both politicians and the MSM, are actually disappointed.

So go figure.
They immediately released more reasons to riot right after. There will be riots. An excuse will emerge. The excuse is immaterial.
I try hard to avoid reading people's minds to figure out their motives because it's not really possible, even though many on the left (and right) think that they have that super power.

Having said that, in this case I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's probably because the guilty on all counts verdict represents a temporary undermining of the narrative of the evilness of white America.

I'm pretty sure it's just a temporary setback for them however. Because it's working well and they are winning.
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